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tieguy
Guest
We appear to be discussing different issues. You keep talking about the growth issue. I am not debating that one. I keep talking about them waiting 5 years to pay me what they owe me.
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pretzel_man
Guest
TieGuy:
Actually, I was trying to respond to your statement that if we were private, stock would be worth what it is now. There is no evidence.
I guess I wasn't clear in that...
As far as the 5 year deferral. Okay....
Would you agree that unless you're planning on leaving, the effect is minor?
The MIP compensation works almost exactly like the Stock Option plan. 5 year vesting.
I guess since I'll be here for a while, I was not worried about the deferral. There are tax and growth advantages too.
Finally, I'm not sure about the "what they owe me line". No one said it would remain unchanged forever.
P-Man
Actually, I was trying to respond to your statement that if we were private, stock would be worth what it is now. There is no evidence.
I guess I wasn't clear in that...
As far as the 5 year deferral. Okay....
Would you agree that unless you're planning on leaving, the effect is minor?
The MIP compensation works almost exactly like the Stock Option plan. 5 year vesting.
I guess since I'll be here for a while, I was not worried about the deferral. There are tax and growth advantages too.
Finally, I'm not sure about the "what they owe me line". No one said it would remain unchanged forever.
P-Man
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proups
Guest
I agree with pretzel man on this one....
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mipexample
Guest
Where will new management come from? As a full time hourly youll make more than a starting supervisor including the MIP under the previous system. I know someone will challenge this based on a 40-hour week, but where do we have hourly employees working 40 hours a week? 47-50 is more the norm and it is common for them to reach the 60 hour mark during a busy week. Take away, or defer the MIP and a new supervisor will make considerably less than the hourly people he supervises for at least 5 years.
The 3% merit raise will barely keep up with the hourly employee wage increases. What is the incentive to enter management? Remove all or a portion of the MIP and the pay for new management looks even worse.
Do we have people lined up waiting to go into management? Do we wonder why?
From what I see we will give the job to almost anyone willing to take it. Several years ago we only took the best we had from the hourly ranks to fill management positions. This clearly is not the case any longer.
I must admit I am somewhat bitter over the MIP change because it will directly affect my W2, but from a long-term company and shareholder point of view I cant see how the company will prosper without being able to attract and retain the best management people.
Will the best management people stay if there are other opportunities elsewhere?
Will the best hourly people be attracted to management positions if they will not see an increase in compensation?
The 3% merit raise will barely keep up with the hourly employee wage increases. What is the incentive to enter management? Remove all or a portion of the MIP and the pay for new management looks even worse.
Do we have people lined up waiting to go into management? Do we wonder why?
From what I see we will give the job to almost anyone willing to take it. Several years ago we only took the best we had from the hourly ranks to fill management positions. This clearly is not the case any longer.
I must admit I am somewhat bitter over the MIP change because it will directly affect my W2, but from a long-term company and shareholder point of view I cant see how the company will prosper without being able to attract and retain the best management people.
Will the best management people stay if there are other opportunities elsewhere?
Will the best hourly people be attracted to management positions if they will not see an increase in compensation?
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soccerman77_98
Guest
Ok. My two or three cents or four cents. I know Im new to the boards, but Ive been following the conversation and as management (IE Sup.), I thought I would weight in.
I have several concerns over the new MIP structure.
First, if you are close to retirement, or already retirement age and dont want to wait for the shares, youre probably gonna leave. Maybe this was expected thoughWhile culling dead weight is a good idea, how are you going to replace the needed people when the replacements arent paid compensatory?
Second, if you look at the earnings report, we basically made up the 4 or so cents a share we lost for the fourth quarter last year. What are they going to cut next time when its 8 cents or 12 cents? Also, this is only going to help the next couple of years, and then they recoup the cost in five years.
Third, Ive been with the company about 5 years so I understand how the management system works. This is another way for them to hold this over your head. Keep working ungodly hours, keep performing the way you are and we might give you your MIP (I know of several in our district that didnt get it because they didnt meet expectations of a certain division manager). By the way, dont leave because you might lose your vested stock. And certainly dont sell any!!!
Fourth, though slightly off-topic. According to several salary websites, Im underpaid anywhere from 8 10 K in salary based on my experience and degrees. The new MIP structure just cut every supervisors pay by 12-15% depending on how vested in the additional incentive they were. As mentioned before, there are several lucrative companies that will at least pay the same (many that will pay better), and with fewer work hours. Ill also get control over my own career path instead of a group of managers getting me recommended for the division manager to make a decision on if Im worthy. Im looking to move on in my career, and if another offer presents itself of any worth, Im gone. Like a previous poster said, I dont intend to stay around to see if its going to work out. The company is obviously focused ONLY on the company and not the employee. The MIP was the last straw.
I have more for later, but for now this will at least add to the conversation
I have several concerns over the new MIP structure.
First, if you are close to retirement, or already retirement age and dont want to wait for the shares, youre probably gonna leave. Maybe this was expected thoughWhile culling dead weight is a good idea, how are you going to replace the needed people when the replacements arent paid compensatory?
Second, if you look at the earnings report, we basically made up the 4 or so cents a share we lost for the fourth quarter last year. What are they going to cut next time when its 8 cents or 12 cents? Also, this is only going to help the next couple of years, and then they recoup the cost in five years.
Third, Ive been with the company about 5 years so I understand how the management system works. This is another way for them to hold this over your head. Keep working ungodly hours, keep performing the way you are and we might give you your MIP (I know of several in our district that didnt get it because they didnt meet expectations of a certain division manager). By the way, dont leave because you might lose your vested stock. And certainly dont sell any!!!
Fourth, though slightly off-topic. According to several salary websites, Im underpaid anywhere from 8 10 K in salary based on my experience and degrees. The new MIP structure just cut every supervisors pay by 12-15% depending on how vested in the additional incentive they were. As mentioned before, there are several lucrative companies that will at least pay the same (many that will pay better), and with fewer work hours. Ill also get control over my own career path instead of a group of managers getting me recommended for the division manager to make a decision on if Im worthy. Im looking to move on in my career, and if another offer presents itself of any worth, Im gone. Like a previous poster said, I dont intend to stay around to see if its going to work out. The company is obviously focused ONLY on the company and not the employee. The MIP was the last straw.
I have more for later, but for now this will at least add to the conversation
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tieguy
Guest
"As far as the 5 year deferral. Okay....
Would you agree that unless you're planning on leaving, the effect is minor?"
I disagree. I lose the right to diversify my investments for 5 years. I did not sign up for stock options I signed up for the MIP program. Time is money. Holding long is the worst possible investment option available on a public market. Even with this stock you can add to your return by selling at the end of the year and buying back in on the dip each march or april. UPS lost the right to force me to sit on every share when they went public. I have a right to manage my investments.
Would you agree that unless you're planning on leaving, the effect is minor?"
I disagree. I lose the right to diversify my investments for 5 years. I did not sign up for stock options I signed up for the MIP program. Time is money. Holding long is the worst possible investment option available on a public market. Even with this stock you can add to your return by selling at the end of the year and buying back in on the dip each march or april. UPS lost the right to force me to sit on every share when they went public. I have a right to manage my investments.
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interested
Guest
Tie-
Great point. If I may further that point by reiterating that many in Ties position have been good soldiers for many, many years and never touched their stock. I am sure there were investments over the years or perhaps a new home to step up to, but they did without. How would the company react if major management shareholders started selling stock and diversifying their porfolios?
This MIP move is horrible for morale.
Great point. If I may further that point by reiterating that many in Ties position have been good soldiers for many, many years and never touched their stock. I am sure there were investments over the years or perhaps a new home to step up to, but they did without. How would the company react if major management shareholders started selling stock and diversifying their porfolios?
This MIP move is horrible for morale.
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interested
Guest
Soccerman-
Thank you for your input. That was exactly the type of contribution this board needs. Young management needs to have a stronger presence on these forums. Your insight and opinion is invaluable.
Outstanding post!!
Thank you for your input. That was exactly the type of contribution this board needs. Young management needs to have a stronger presence on these forums. Your insight and opinion is invaluable.
Outstanding post!!
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upsdawg
Guest
Thank you everybody for your imput--I have been following this thread and some excellent points are being expressed and shared.
My feelings are the MIP has always been the "Balancer"---this is what has evened out the salary compared to an hourly person. It is a way for the company to "Reward" you annually and normally this money just sat and grew---if you needed some cash you would Hypo some shares, but you did not sell any shares.!! This mindset has changed.
Regarding the "Next" change-----what if the Pension Plan was changed-----the rumor has been moving the age to 57----and I am sure that because we have so many Staff level and above retiring this year and next---the 57 thing did not materialize-------but afetr the 3500 staff people nationally leave by the end of 2006, I would bet $$$$$ that there will be a change to the UPS Pension Plan.
So, after 2 years the MIP changes will quiet down--and it will be time for the "SPIN" on a new and improved Retirement Plan.So if you are a new Management person---of if you have been in for awhile and were looking forward to the magic numbers----25 at 55, what will the new numbers be??
My feelings are the MIP has always been the "Balancer"---this is what has evened out the salary compared to an hourly person. It is a way for the company to "Reward" you annually and normally this money just sat and grew---if you needed some cash you would Hypo some shares, but you did not sell any shares.!! This mindset has changed.
Regarding the "Next" change-----what if the Pension Plan was changed-----the rumor has been moving the age to 57----and I am sure that because we have so many Staff level and above retiring this year and next---the 57 thing did not materialize-------but afetr the 3500 staff people nationally leave by the end of 2006, I would bet $$$$$ that there will be a change to the UPS Pension Plan.
So, after 2 years the MIP changes will quiet down--and it will be time for the "SPIN" on a new and improved Retirement Plan.So if you are a new Management person---of if you have been in for awhile and were looking forward to the magic numbers----25 at 55, what will the new numbers be??
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upscorpis
Guest
If the pension gets messed with, then you'll see an exodus. That is what keeps many people around. I've looked around at the outside jobs available to someone like myself. No where could I find the pension benefits like I have today. The amount of salary increase I'd have to have to make up for the pension is substantial. Sure, I could have a higher salary but I'd have to sock all of it plus more away to achieve the pension that I'm projected to receive.
As for divesting I don't see insurmountable issues. Since the RSUs count toward your ownership level, taking cash and converting to and using B shares is still available for divesting and/or playing the ups and downs. Granted, you may have lost some flexibility in choosing the shares to convert. I must be missing something.
As for divesting I don't see insurmountable issues. Since the RSUs count toward your ownership level, taking cash and converting to and using B shares is still available for divesting and/or playing the ups and downs. Granted, you may have lost some flexibility in choosing the shares to convert. I must be missing something.
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isdrone
Guest
CorpIs,
I agree. The exodus will be huge. I also think that if the net revenue grows this year and the MIP is much less than 2004 because of missed scorecard elements, then people will leave. Don't get me wrong UPS is a great company and I have 15 years invested and would hate to lose it, but times are changing. Benefits hacked in 1995, reorganization in 1995, reorganization (Engineering) 2005, MIP change 2005. The pension is next - count on it or a mass reduction in management - or both. Look at the management structure of SCS, much leaner than traditional UPS.
As far as the new MIP - easy to understand why the change, less overhead for the next 5 years - nothing more, nothing less. Someone said they did not sign up for options, neither did I.
I agree. The exodus will be huge. I also think that if the net revenue grows this year and the MIP is much less than 2004 because of missed scorecard elements, then people will leave. Don't get me wrong UPS is a great company and I have 15 years invested and would hate to lose it, but times are changing. Benefits hacked in 1995, reorganization in 1995, reorganization (Engineering) 2005, MIP change 2005. The pension is next - count on it or a mass reduction in management - or both. Look at the management structure of SCS, much leaner than traditional UPS.
As far as the new MIP - easy to understand why the change, less overhead for the next 5 years - nothing more, nothing less. Someone said they did not sign up for options, neither did I.
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tieguy
Guest
Agreed. There is a confidence with a net profit number that you are getting a measurable MIP result. Some of the confusion and distrust with this new system will be the ambigous measurement of goals and results. Who is setting the goals, are they realistic or the dreaded stretch goal that no one ever achieves. The post first quarter statement posted on UPSers.com was vague enough to continue to feed that distrust. As management we are taught to clearly measure and to audit. We are then provided a form of measuring by which we will be compensated that is very vague. Did anyone take the online survey asking for your opinion on MIP and PAS? Questions really asked you if your manager explained it thoroughly. Not if you agree with the system. This may be the right thing to do at the right time in this companys evolution but if it is we must do a better job of explaining how it will be measured. Ultimately most of our partners will crunch the numbers and determine whether they would have gotten more or less under the old system and then pass final judgement on the results. If it ends up giving us the opportunity to grow the business, share price and personal portfolio then everyone will love it. If it comes up short of these personal goals management will leave in droves before they have the 5 year shackles locked in place.
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mipexample
Guest
UPS saves $300 million means low and mid level management will earn at least $300 million less in 2005 than in 2004. High level mangement gets 7% increase. Low and mid level management get the shaft!
From UPS press release 5/11/05
UPS Reiterates Profit Guidance for Year...Eskew said the company is on target this year to achieve $200 million in semi-variable cost reductions and $300 million in compensation expense savings. UPS previously announced a change to its management bonus program, moving from a fixed profit-sharing plan to a performance-based plan.
I agree with Tie. Evevy UPS management class ever taught included a lesson on goal setting. Goals MUST be clearly defined. For example: You will receive the 2.0 mip target if volume increases 2% above the levels of 2004 using October 1 through September 30 as the comparison period is a clearly defined goal. Raise volume and you may get MIP at a later determined value is a piss poor example of goal setting.
From UPS press release 5/11/05
UPS Reiterates Profit Guidance for Year...Eskew said the company is on target this year to achieve $200 million in semi-variable cost reductions and $300 million in compensation expense savings. UPS previously announced a change to its management bonus program, moving from a fixed profit-sharing plan to a performance-based plan.
I agree with Tie. Evevy UPS management class ever taught included a lesson on goal setting. Goals MUST be clearly defined. For example: You will receive the 2.0 mip target if volume increases 2% above the levels of 2004 using October 1 through September 30 as the comparison period is a clearly defined goal. Raise volume and you may get MIP at a later determined value is a piss poor example of goal setting.
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ups79
Guest
just as most management people told the hourly to "suck it up and do the job or find somewhere else to work". I now can say the same to you.
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trickpony1
Guest
ups79,
As much as I may agree with your statement, let's not rub it in their nose. They know what happened to us and we know what happened to them. Perhaps a symbiotic relationship could develop as a result of all of us getting screwed. Let's show some dignity and let them hash this out as they have let us hash out our pension/contract woes. Preaching to the choir is a waste of energy.
(Message edited by trickpony1 on May 12, 2005)
As much as I may agree with your statement, let's not rub it in their nose. They know what happened to us and we know what happened to them. Perhaps a symbiotic relationship could develop as a result of all of us getting screwed. Let's show some dignity and let them hash this out as they have let us hash out our pension/contract woes. Preaching to the choir is a waste of energy.
(Message edited by trickpony1 on May 12, 2005)
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interested
Guest
UPS79,
I understand your point of view, and although many of us have never ever told a teamster to suck it up and do their job, there are times in all of our lives when we have to do just that. Unless of course, we have a choice. Many who toil at UPS every day have worked hard to ensure that when the time comes they will have a choice. If you are one of those people you don't have to suck it up, you can leave. That is what we are facing in this discussion. Rather than accepting what many believe to be a tough injustice, what does the marketplace hold for those who have prepared themselves to face just such a day? I think we have demonstrated that there are many good jobs out there for UPS management. Many of us do have a choice to make in our careers and while UPS must do what is best for the business, so too must we as employees do what is best for ourselves and our families.
We discussed it before, loyalty is a two way street. If many feel that the MIP is not to their liking, they can and will leave. That is not what UPS expects to happen, but they should take into consideration that there are other career choices out there.
I understand your point of view, and although many of us have never ever told a teamster to suck it up and do their job, there are times in all of our lives when we have to do just that. Unless of course, we have a choice. Many who toil at UPS every day have worked hard to ensure that when the time comes they will have a choice. If you are one of those people you don't have to suck it up, you can leave. That is what we are facing in this discussion. Rather than accepting what many believe to be a tough injustice, what does the marketplace hold for those who have prepared themselves to face just such a day? I think we have demonstrated that there are many good jobs out there for UPS management. Many of us do have a choice to make in our careers and while UPS must do what is best for the business, so too must we as employees do what is best for ourselves and our families.
We discussed it before, loyalty is a two way street. If many feel that the MIP is not to their liking, they can and will leave. That is not what UPS expects to happen, but they should take into consideration that there are other career choices out there.
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tieguy
Guest
"just as most management people told the hourly to "suck it up and do the job or find somewhere else to work". I now can say the same to you."
I guess you feel you need to make that point for some sin of management committed against you in the past. Its really an interesting mindset taking place here. I don't know how to discuss the pros and cons of something new without possibly sounding like I am whining or complaining at times. I am along for the long haul regardless of what happens.
I guess you feel you need to make that point for some sin of management committed against you in the past. Its really an interesting mindset taking place here. I don't know how to discuss the pros and cons of something new without possibly sounding like I am whining or complaining at times. I am along for the long haul regardless of what happens.
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upsdawg
Guest
Interested-----well put!!
Regarding sucking it up----as a management person, or should I say prior to going into management-I drove for 12 years and at times "Sucked it Up", because that is the expectation at UPS-No matter what level, or position you have--driver--loader--supervisor--manager---this is the UPS way and it is what has separated us from our competitors. The payback was the pay--the benefits--the pension----but as each of these are cut each one has to ask--"Is it time to go elsewhere"?? This is a decision that each one has to look deep inside and ponder.As a UPS employee---whatever level---you have received some excellent training and experience to prepare you for the world outside of UPS.
I have seen a lot of x-UPS people be very successful in their new careers----there is life after UPS for those who wish to make that decision to do so.
Regarding sucking it up----as a management person, or should I say prior to going into management-I drove for 12 years and at times "Sucked it Up", because that is the expectation at UPS-No matter what level, or position you have--driver--loader--supervisor--manager---this is the UPS way and it is what has separated us from our competitors. The payback was the pay--the benefits--the pension----but as each of these are cut each one has to ask--"Is it time to go elsewhere"?? This is a decision that each one has to look deep inside and ponder.As a UPS employee---whatever level---you have received some excellent training and experience to prepare you for the world outside of UPS.
I have seen a lot of x-UPS people be very successful in their new careers----there is life after UPS for those who wish to make that decision to do so.
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isdrone
Guest
upsdawg,
"there is life after UPS for those who wish to make that decision to do so."
It is a shame. UPS has spent all of this time and money training management people and then push them to their breaking point. The golden handcuffs are not that good when they turn to bronze. I, too, have never met an ex-upser who was not happy they left.
"there is life after UPS for those who wish to make that decision to do so."
It is a shame. UPS has spent all of this time and money training management people and then push them to their breaking point. The golden handcuffs are not that good when they turn to bronze. I, too, have never met an ex-upser who was not happy they left.
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speeddemon
Guest
boy, how things come full circle for ALL of us eh mgt guys?
