Stupidvisors working...a political debate

BrownShark

Banned
BAGHDAD (AFP) — The death toll of US soldiers in the five-year Iraq conflict has hit 4,000 in what the US military said Monday was a "tragic" loss of lives after four troops were killed in a Baghdad bombing.
The four soldiers died when their vehicle was hit by a roadside bomb while on patrol late Sunday in southern Baghdad, bringing the overall toll to 4,000, according to an AFP tally based on independent website.
Another soldier was wounded in the attack, a military statement said.
The chaotic and brutal conflict which is now in its sixth year has also wounded more than 29,000 American soldiers, according to icasualties.org.
At least 97 percent of the deaths occurred after US President George W. Bush announced the end of "major combat" in Iraq on May 1, 2003, as the military became caught between a raging anti-American insurgency and brutal sectarian strife unleashed since the toppling of Saddam.
140 American servicemembers died before May 1, 2003, out of a total 4,000.
Despite the losses, Bush on the eve of the war's fifth anniversary defended his decision to invade Iraq, vowing no retreat as he promised American soldiers would triumph despite the "high cost in lives and treasure."
US military spokesman in Baghdad, Rear Admiral Gregory Smith, said the loss of every soldier was "tragic".
"No casualty is more or less significant than another; each soldier, marine, airman and sailor is equally precious and their loss equally tragic," Smith told AFP.
"Being in the military means we are willingly in harm's way to protect others in order to bring hope and a sustainable security to the Iraqi people."
According to icasualties.org, 81.3 percent of the soldiers killed have died in attacks by Al-Qaeda in Iraq fighters, Sunni insurgent groups loyal to Saddam and radical Shiite militias.
The remainder died in non-combat related incidents.
Roadside bombs caused most of the casualties, with small arms fire the second biggest killer.
Around 40 percent of those killed were struck by roadside bombs, according to the website, making these weapons the main cause of fatalities.
Others died variously in car bombings, small arms fire, helicopter crashes, ambushes, rocket attacks and suicide bombings.
American soldiers interviewed by AFP in Iraq expressed sorrow over the casualties but insisted the conflict was justified.
"It's sad that the number is that high. It makes you wonder if there is a different way of approaching things. Nobody likes to hear that number," said senior Airman Preston Reeves, 26, from Birmingham, Alabama.
"Everyone of those people signed up voluntarily and its a shame that that happens, but tragedies do happen in war."
Reeves said it was depressing that the support back home was receding.
"It's a shame you don't get support from your own country, when all they want you to do is leave Iraq and all these people will have died in vain," he told AFP.
The military death toll is one of the key elements of the US 2008 presidential elections for Democrat candidates Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama, who are calling for the withdrawal of troops.
The deadliest war for the US military, aside from the two world wars, has been Vietnam, with 58,000 soldiers killed between 1964 and 1973, an average of 26 a day. On average, just over two US soldiers die every day in Iraq.
The icasualties.org statistics reveal that the deadliest year for the military in Iraq was 2007 when it lost 901 troops on the back of a controversial "surge", which saw an extra 30,000 soldiers deployed in a bid to break the stranglehold of violence that has killed tens of thousands of Iraqis.
This figure compares with 486 deaths in 2003, the first year of the conflict, 849 in 2004, 846 in 2005 and 822 in 2006.
Since the start of 2008, 96 soldiers have died.
US military commanders in Iraq acknowledge that putting extra troops on the ground also exposed them to more attacks.
In recent months the military has begun withdrawing the surge troops as violence levels fall across the country, with US and Iraqi officials reporting a 60-percent drop in attacks since June.
Most of the attacks in the past five years have been staged in four of Iraq's 18 provinces.
The western Sunni province of Anbar witnessed most overall casualties, with 1,282 losses since the US-led invasion, according to icasualties.org, followed by Baghdad with 1,255, Salaheddin with 376, and Diyala with 238.
In Anbar and Salaheddin the military faced a strong anti-American insurgency, while in Baghdad and Diyala it has been caught in a three-way fight involving Al-Qaeda, Sunni groups loyal to Saddam and Shiite militias.
But for the past year attacks against US troops have fallen sharply in Anbar after local Sunni Arab groups joined forces with the US military to fight Al-Qaeda in Iraq.
According to the website, November 2004 remains the deadliest month for the US military in Iraq.
It lost 137 troops that month when it launched a massive assault to take back the Anbar city of Fallujah, then a Sunni insurgent bastion.
The US state of California has borne the brunt of American losses, with at least 426 soldiers killed in the conflict.
The US military is also searching for four of its soldiers missing in Iraq.
Two of them were captured in May last year after insurgents ambushed their patrol south of Baghdad in an attack which killed four other soldiers and their interpreter.
Al-Qaeda in Iraq in a later Internet message said it had kidnapped and killed the soldiers. The military says it is still searching for them.
Apart from deaths due to hostile fire, 145 soldiers have died due to "self-inflicted wounds," the website said, indicating a large number of suicides.
The death toll also includes 102 female service members.


The reality of war.

Peace.:peaceful:
 

BrownShark

Banned
Iraq implodes as Shia fights Shia

</EM>
Another tragedy as the Shia majority turn on each other
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...-implodes-as-shia-fights-shia-801214.html#aaa

By Patrick Cockburn
Thursday, 27 March 2008





A new civil war is threatening to explode in Iraq as American-backed Iraqi government forces fight Shia militiamen for control of Basra and parts of Baghdad.

Heavy fighting engulfed Iraq's two largest cities and spread to other towns yesterday as the Iraqi Prime Minister, Nouri al-Maliki, gave fighters of the Mehdi Army, led by the radical cleric Muqtada al-Sadr, 72 hours to surrender their weapons.
The gun battles between soldiers and militiamen, who are all Shia Muslims, show that Iraq's majority Shia community – which replaced Saddam Hussein's Sunni regime – is splitting apart for the first time.
Mr Sadr's followers believe the government is trying to eliminate them before elections in southern Iraq later this year, which they are expected to win.
Mortars and rockets launched from Mehdi Army-controlled districts of Baghdad struck the Green Zone, the seat of American power in Iraq, for the third day yesterday, seriously wounding three Americans. Two rockets hit the parking lot of the Iraqi cabinet. The mixed area of al-Mansur in west Baghdad, where shops had begun to reopen in recent months, was deserted yesterday as Mehdi Army fighters were rumoured among local people to be moving in from the nearby Shia stronghold of Washash. "We expect an attack by the Shia in spite of the Americans being spread over Sunni districts to defend them," said a Sunni resident.
Forty people have been killed and at least 200 injured in Basra in the last two days of violence. In the town of Hilla, south of Baghdad, 11 people were killed and 18 injured yesterday by a US air strike called in support of Iraqi forces following street battles with Shia militia members in the city's Thawra neighbourhood. In Baghdad, 14 have been killed and 140 wounded.
The supporters of Mr Sadr, who form the largest political movement in Iraq, blame the Americans for giving the go-ahead for Mr Maliki's offensive against them and supporting it with helicopters and bomber aircraft. US troops have sealed off Sadr City, the close-packed slum in the capital with a population that is the main bastion of the Sadrists, while the Mehdi Army has taken over its streets, establishing checkpoints, each manned by about 20 heavily armed men. It is unlikely that the militiamen in Basra will surrender as demanded by the government. Sadiq al-Rikabi, an adviser to Mr Maliki, said those who kept their weapons would be arrested. "Any gunman who does not do that within three days will be an outlaw."
Streets were empty in Basra and Baghdad as people stayed at home to avoid the fighting. The Mehdi Army is enforcing a strike in Baghdad with mosques calling for the closure of shops, businesses and schools.
In the Shia city of Kut, on the Tigris south of Baghdad, local residents say that black-clad Mehdi Army militiamen have taken over five districts and expelled the police.
At the same time, Mr Sadr is clearly eager to continue the truce which he declared on 29 August last year after bloody clashes in Kerbala with Iraqi police controlled by the rival Shia political movement, the Islamic Supreme Council of Iraq, and their well-organised militia, the Badr organisation.
He renewed this ceasefire in February, saying he wanted to purge its ranks of criminals. "The freeze that Sadr has ordered is still ongoing," said one of his chief lieutenants, Luwaa Smaism.
Mr Sadr has sought to avoid an all-out military confrontation with American troops or Badr backed by American forces since he fought two ferocious battles for Najaf against US marines in 2004.
Mr Sadr has sent emissaries to Mr Maliki asking him to remove his troops, numbering some 15,000 men from Basra, and to resolve problems peacefully. But his aides say there will be no talks until the Iraqi army reinforcements are withdrawn. The offer of talks is in keeping with Mr Sadr's past behaviour, which is to appear conciliatory but in practice to make few real concessions. The US is claiming that the Sadrists are not being singled out, only Iran-supported militia factions, but this will find few believers in Iraq.
"This is not a battle against the [Mehdi Army] nor is it a proxy war between the United States and Iran," said a US military spokesman, Major General Kevin Bergner. "It is [the] government of Iraq taking the necessary action to deal with criminals on the streets."
The Sunni population is pleased to see the government and the Americans attacking the Mehdi Army, which they see as a Shia death squad. "Before, the Shia were arresting and killing us and forcing us to leave Iraq for Jordan and Syria where we lived in misery," said Osama Sabr, a Sunni in west Baghdad.
The fighting is threatening to disrupt Iraq's oil production, most of which comes from the Basra area, because workers in the oilfields dare not leave their homes.
The militia
The Mehdi Army
Armed wing of the Sadr movement. Muqtada al-Sadr's militia is divided, with one wing supporting the radical cleric's ceasefire while another has rejected it and continued attacks on Iraqi government forces and the British base at Basra aiport.
The Badr Brigade
Armed wing of the Supreme Islamic Iraqi Council. The Badr Brigade has been involved in numerous clashes with the Mehdi Army and appears not to be the target of the current offensive by the Iraqi government forces. The group has organised "spontaneous" demonstrations against General Mohan and General Jalil.
The Fadhila
A political party and armed group with a localised powerbase. The governor of Basra is a member of the party, and it controls a significant proportion of the region's oil supply.


This is only the begining..

Peace:peaceful:
 

HazMatMan

Well-Known Member
I heard Bush had a hand in the bombing of the WTC. Is it true or is it hog wash?? I feel safer going through the Lincoln Tunnel every night with all the police action going on, oh wait, that's not true, it's just one cop car, and half (or more of) the time he/she is sleeping.. Any, and I mean any terrorist could drive right into that tunnel and blow it up..America is still very vulnerable to an attack.
 

Overpaid Union Thug

Well-Known Member
Right before I got out of the military our squadron had a Commander's Call. That's a meeting for those of you with no experience with the military. The Commander, which is basically the equivalent of a center manager or hub manager, talks to everyone. Anyway.....more people were being killed every day in Iraq then has been killed each day so far this year. He was talking about how it was pathetic how the media and all the anti-war loons were upset about how many people we had lost in Iraq up to that point. He mentioned that the number of troops we lose each day compared to the other wars made him wonder how anyone could be freaking out about how many we have lost in Iraq. He also told us that anyone in the military is more likely to die or be injured here in the states in an accident then be killed in Iraq. It's amazing how quickly the Liberal media adopted their defeatist attitude after we started losing troops in Iraq. Imagine how the world would have faired if Americans would have acted that way during WW1 and WW2 when we were losing thousands of troops in a week instead. And to think that people are freaking out over losing that many over a 5 year span. Yes, one loss is too many but compare this to the other conflicts. It's amazing.
 

BrownShark

Banned
Heres a loss you may be interested in?

Suicide in Iraq

Posted April 1, 2008 | 12:34 PM (EST)


The scourge of suicides among American troops in Iraq is a serious and seriously underreported problem. One of the few high-profile cases involves a much-admired Army colonel named Ted Westhusing -- who, in his 2005 suicide note, pointed a finger at a then little-known U.S. general named David Petraeus. Westhusing's widow, asked by a friend what killed this West Point scholar, had replied simply: "Iraq."
Now there is a disturbing update on this case.
Before putting a bullet through his head, Westhusing had been deeply disturbed by abuses carried out by American contractors in Iraq, including allegations that they had witnessed or even participated in the murder of Iraqis. His suicide note included claims that his two commanders tolerated a mission based on "corruption, human right abuses and liars." One of those commanders: the future leader of the "surge" campaign in Iraq, Gen. Petraeus.
Westhusing, 44, had been found dead in a trailer at a military base near the Baghdad airport in June 2005, a single gunshot wound to the head. At the time, he was the highest-ranking officer to die in Iraq. The Army concluded that he committed suicide with his service pistol. Westhusing was an unusual case: "one of the Army's leading scholars of military ethics, a full professor at West Point who volunteered to serve in Iraq to be able to better teach his students. He had a doctorate in philosophy; his dissertation was an extended meditation on the meaning of honor," as Christian Miller explained in a major Los Angeles Times piece.
"In e-mails to his family," Miller wrote, "Westhusing seemed especially upset by one conclusion he had reached: that traditional military values such as duty, honor and country had been replaced by profit motives in Iraq, where the U.S. had come to rely heavily on contractors for jobs once done by the military." His death followed quickly. "He was sick of money-grubbing contractors," one official recounted. Westhusing said that "he had not come over to Iraq for this." After a three-month inquiry, investigators declared Westhusing's death a suicide.

Last March, The Texas Observer published a cover story by contributor Robert Bryce titled "I Am Sullied No More." It is featured in a chapter in my new book on Iraq and the media.
Bryce covered much of the same ground paved by Miller but added details on the Petraeus angle. Now, in the past few weeks, Bryce has added more in an update -- which explores whether Westhusing was murdered.
"When he was in Iraq, Westhusing worked for one of the most famous generals in the U.S. military, David Petraeus," Bryce observed last year. "As the head of counterterrorism and special operations under Petraeus, Westhusing oversaw the single most important task facing the U.S. military in Iraq then and now: training the Iraqi security forces."

Bryce referred to a "two-inch stack of documents, obtained over the past 15 months under the Freedom of Information Act, that provides many details of Westhusing's suicide....The documents echo the story told by Westhusing's friends. 'Something he saw [in Iraq] drove him to this,' one Army officer who was close to Westhusing said in an interview. 'The sum of what he saw going on drove him' to take his own life. 'It's because he believed in duty, honor, country that he's dead.'"

In Iraq, Westhusing worked under two generals: Maj. Gen. Joseph Fil, and Petraeus, then a lieutenant general. But Bryce continued: "By late May, Westhusing was becoming despondent over what he was seeing." When his body was found on June, a note was found nearby addressed to Petraeus and Fil. According to Bryce it read:
"Thanks for telling me it was a good day until I briefed you. [Redacted name]--You are only interested in your career and provide no support to your staff--no msn [mission] support and you don't care. I cannot support a msn that leads to corruption, human right abuses and liars. I am sullied--no more. I didn't volunteer to support corrupt, money grubbing contractors, nor work for commanders only interested in themselves. I came to serve honorably and feel dishonored. I trust no Iraqi. I cannot live this way. All my love to my family, my wife and my precious children. I love you and trust you only. Death before being dishonored any more.
"Trust is essential--I don't know who trust anymore. Why serve when you cannot accomplish the mission, when you no longer believe in the cause, when your every effort and breath to succeed meets with lies, lack of support, and selfishness? No more. Reevaluate yourselves, cdrs [commanders]. You are not what you think you are and I know it."

Twelve days after Westhusing's body was found, Army investigators talked with his widow, who told them: "I think Ted gave his life to let everyone know what was going on. They need to get to the bottom of it, and hope all these bad things get cleaned up."
 

BrownShark

Banned
WINNING THE HEARTS AND MINDS?????

A Block in Baghdad Mourns Its Own

Sudden U.S. Gunfire Claims Child, Her Grandfather and a Neighbor, Residents Say


PH2008040101288.jpg

Ghadeer Abbas holds photos of his 2-year-old daughter Tabarik and his father, Abbas Ramadan. Both died in a hail of gunfire on Saturday. The family alleges that U.S. troops inadvertently shot dead the pair. (Sudarsan Raghavan/TWP)
PH2008040101287.jpg

Abdul Salaam, a shopkeeper, holds the photo of his friend Abbas Fadhil Abdallah, who was killed by gunfire on Saturday. (Sudarsan Raghavan/TWP)
PH2008040101281.jpg

Ghadeer Abbas sits on the exact spot his daughter and father were killed.There are bullet holes on the fence and dried blood on the ground. (Sudarsan Raghavan/TWP)

By Sudarsan Raghavan
Washington Post Foreign Service
Tuesday, April 1, 2008; Page A01

BAGHDAD, March 31 -- Abdul Qader, his chest and leg wrapped in white bandages, began to cry -- not out of pain, but loss. He remembered seeing the American Humvees, then a hail of bullets. He remembered seeing his close friend and neighbor, Abbas Ramadan, shot as he clutched his 2-year-old granddaughter, blood oozing from her head. Abdul Qader ran and ran until he collapsed from the bullets that pierced his own body.
This Story



"He's gone. He was so kind," said Abdul Qader, crumbling. "I am not crying because of my wounds. I am crying because of my friend. He was like a brother."
Abdul Qader's suffering is part of the human toll of the worst violence in months in Iraq. At least 400 people, from the southern city of Basra to the capital, Baghdad, were killed over six days, including many civilians, according to Iraqi police and other officials. Countless more were injured, joining thousands of Iraqis whose lives have been shattered by five years of conflict.
On Saturday evening, Ramadan and his granddaughter Tabarik were mortally wounded as they sat outside their front door in Baghdad's Zafraniya neighborhood. Witnesses said U.S. troops fired in their direction toward a group of young men who the soldiers may have thought were militiamen. Abbas Fadhil, 25, a neighbor, was also killed as he bought a pack of cigarettes.
A U.S. military spokesman said there were no reports of accidental deaths of civilians at that time, or of U.S. troops engaging hostile forces in the area.
"I'm not saying it didn't happen. If it did happen, we would want them to come forward and let us know," Lt. Col. Steve Stover said. "We don't like making mistakes. We do own up to our mistakes."
Monday, following the lifting of a curfew, was the first day that Ramadan's relatives and friends could mourn properly. They came, through heavy traffic and checkpoints, knowing that violence could erupt again at any moment.
Two funeral tents were erected next to each other, the anguish of the mourners melding together. The larger tent, made of purple and cream fabric printed with pretty flowers befitting a little girl, stood in the middle of this scarred street. Inside, a picture of Ramadan and his son, Hamza, who died in a car bombing last year, stood on a table. Next to it was a picture of a smiling Tabarik, bubbling with life.
A few feet away, large bullet holes pocked the orange-painted gate of a shop. Next door, the wall of a house was riddled with more bullet holes. Ghadeer Abbas, Tabarik's father, pointed at the holes and shook his head. Then he walked over to the next house and sat on a small brick block in front of a tan gate, also peppered with bullet holes. He pointed to a maroon patch on the ground.
"This is my daughter's blood," Abbas said.
Around 6 p.m. on Saturday, his father was sitting on the same brick block, chatting with Abdul Qader about cars and marriage. They had known each other for 20 years. Ramadan was 51, a taxi driver. He had just finished making some repairs on his Chevrolet Malibu. And Tabarik, as usual, was near him. "My daughter was always following her grandfather. She loved him very much," Abbas said.
Down the road, behind short concrete blast walls, U.S. troops could be seen in four Humvees, according to several witnesses.
 

wkmac

Well-Known Member
Brownshark,

You need to post links with every article going back to the source material. Not only does this provide us with a means of verifying the source of your claims but it also satisfies potential copyright issues. The vast majority of news and information websites want people to spread their info around but they also want the poster to link their website as a means to give credit. This satisfies many copyright issues. It only takes a second to post a link to original source at the bottom of each page.

I think the last thing any of us want is some kind of conflict or hassle for Cheryl over our us of content on this site. Let's police ourselves so she and moderators don't have to. Thanks man!

:peaceful:
 

wkmac

Well-Known Member
I heard Bush had a hand in the bombing of the WTC. Is it true or is it hog wash?? I feel safer going through the Lincoln Tunnel every night with all the police action going on, oh wait, that's not true, it's just one cop car, and half (or more of) the time he/she is sleeping.. Any, and I mean any terrorist could drive right into that tunnel and blow it up..America is still very vulnerable to an attack.

HazMatMan,

I've heard time and time again about this allegation but I've never given it much thought or consideration. So after seeing your question I just wondered how this might work.
 

BrownShark

Banned
Realities of BOTH political parties...!!

New study shows US lawmakers have as much as $196 million invested in defense companies

The Associated Press
Published: April 3, 2008


WASHINGTON: Members of the U.S.Congress have as much as $196 million (€126.2 million) collectively invested in companies doing business with the Defense Department, earning millions since the start of the Iraq war, according to a new study by a nonpartisan research group.


The review of lawmakers' 2006 financial disclosure statements, by the Washington-based Center for Responsive Politics, suggests that members' holdings could pose a conflict of interest as they decide the fate of Iraq war spending. Several members who earned the most from defense contractors have plum committee or leadership assignments, including Democratic Sen. John Kerry, independent Sen. Joseph Lieberman and House Republican Whip Roy Blunt.
The study found that more Republicans than Democrats hold stock in defense companies, but that the Democrats who are invested had significantly more money at stake. In 2006, for example, Democrats held at least $3.7 million (€2.3 million) in military-related investments, compared to Republican investments of $577,500 (€372,000).
Overall, 151 members hold investments worth $78.7 million (€50.6 million) to $195.5 million (€125.9 million) in companies that receive defense contracts that are worth at least $5 million (€3.2 million). These investments earned them anywhere between $15.8 million (€10.1 million) and $62 million (€39.9 million) between 2004 and 2006, the center concludes.
It is unclear how many members still hold these investments and exactly how much money has been made. Disclosure reports for 2007 are not due until this May. Also, members are required to report only a general range of their holdings.



According to the report, presidential hopefuls Barack Obama and John McCain did not report any defense-related holdings on their filings; Hillary Rodham Clinton did note holdings in such companies as Honeywell, Boeing and Raytheon, but sold the stock in May 2007. All three are members of the Senate.



Not all the companies invested in by lawmakers are typical defense contractors. Corporations such as PepsiCo, IBM, Microsoft and Johnson & Johnson have at one point received defense-related contracts, the report notes.
"So common are these companies, both as personal investments and as defense contractors, it would appear difficult to build a diverse blue-chip stock portfolio without at least some of them," wrote the center's Lindsay Renick Mayer.
Still, earning dividends from companies tied to the military "could be problematic" for members that oversee defense policy and budgeting, Mayer adds.
Kerry, a Democrat, a member of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, is identified as earning the most — at least $2.6 million between 2004 and 2006 from investments worth up to $38.2 million (€24.6 million).
Spokesman David Wade said Kerry, who staunchly opposes the war in Iraq, is one of many beneficiaries of family trusts which he doesn't control. Wade also noted that Kerry does not sit on the Appropriations Committee, which has direct control of the defense budget.
"He has a 24-year Senate record of working and voting in the best interests of our men and women in the military, not of any defense contractors," Wade said.
Lieberman, an independent and chairman of the Senate Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs Committee and a member of the Armed Services Committee, held a considerably smaller share at $51,000 (€32,848.13).
A spokesman for Blunt, a senior member of House Republican leadership who held at least $15,000 (€9,660) in Lockheed Martin stock in 2006, said the insinuation that lawmakers' votes might be affected by their portfolios is "offensive."
"I don't pretend to speak for other offices, but I am fairly certain that no member would consider their personal finances when voting on issues as important as sending our men and women in uniform into harm's way," said Blunt spokesman Nick Simpson.
 

BrownShark

Banned
Brownshark,

You need to post links with every article going back to the source material. Not only does this provide us with a means of verifying the source of your claims but it also satisfies potential copyright issues. The vast majority of news and information websites want people to spread their info around but they also want the poster to link their website as a means to give credit. This satisfies many copyright issues. It only takes a second to post a link to original source at the bottom of each page.

I think the last thing any of us want is some kind of conflict or hassle for Cheryl over our us of content on this site. Let's police ourselves so she and moderators don't have to. Thanks man!

:peaceful:


Wkmac,

dont over think the blog.

Public info is public info, reproduced or otherwise. Read what I post, consider it, then offer a counter if you wish, but leave the I-spy for something deserving of such.

Peace.:peaceful:
 

wkmac

Well-Known Member
Wkmac,

dont over think the blog.

Public info is public info, reproduced or otherwise. Read what I post, consider it, then offer a counter if you wish, but leave the I-spy for something deserving of such.

Peace.:peaceful:

Well other than the obvious of not wanting to do anything to cause Cheryl problems, I also thought for example that posting the link to Counterpunch for example which has other pieces by Cockburn and others promotes the idea of reading other websites that present a different POV.

But I'll leave you to do whatever you so choose!

Have a good one!
:peaceful: back at ya!

AV, by golly I think you did have it right!
 

scratch

Least Best Moderator
Staff member
Wkmac,

dont over think the blog.

Public info is public info, reproduced or otherwise. Read what I post, consider it, then offer a counter if you wish, but leave the I-spy for something deserving of such.

Peace.:peaceful:

BrownShark,
This is incorrect. This is website is private property and liable to copyright laws. We do have to remove things sometimes.
 

av8torntn

Well-Known Member
Re: Stupidvisors working...

Remember, for those who claim to know, but dont have a clue, Chemical weapons have a shelf life, they are not indeffinate weapons. The Saryn gas he used on the Kurds on 2 days in august in the 80's during the Reagan administration killed only 6746 people (verified). NOT MILLIONS.
.:peaceful:

Just thought I would add to your post since you think you have a clue. The shelf life of Sarin(not saryn) is from 27 to 100 years depending on how it is stored. The sarin used on our troops in the war was likely active just not deployed properly.

You got so many things wrong in that post. The most amusing part is you think you have some sort of knowledge.
 

Jones

fILE A GRIEVE!
Staff member
Re: Stupidvisors working...

Just thought I would add to your post since you think you have a clue. The shelf life of Sarin(not saryn) is from 27 to 100 years depending on how it is stored. The sarin used on our troops in the war was likely active just not deployed properly.

You got so many things wrong in that post. The most amusing part is you think you have some sort of knowledge.
Are you sure about that?
click
 

Jones

fILE A GRIEVE!
Staff member
I'm talking about the shelf life of Sarin, I should have made that clear. I can't find any support for it having a shelf life of 27 to 100 years regardless of how it is stored. Iraqi produced Sarin in particular generally had impurities that reduced it's shelf life to a matter of weeks:
When the Iraqis produced chemical munitions they appeared to adhere to a “make and use” regimen. Judging by the information Iraq gave the United Nations,
later verified by on-site inspections, Iraq had poor product quality for their nerve agents. This low quality was likely due to a lack of purification. They had to get the agent to the front promptly or have it degrade in the munition.
Using their weapons soon after production probably worked well in the Iran-Iraq War, where the skies over Iraq were controlled by the Iraqis. Unfortunately for the Iraqis, loss of air control in the Gulf meant the weapons could never reach the front. The chemical munitions found in Iraq after the Gulf War contained badly deteriorated agents and a significant proportion
were visibly leaking.


I found the above quoted information in the Militarily Critical Technologies List (MCTL)
 

av8torntn

Well-Known Member
I'm talking about the shelf life of Sarin, I should have made that clear. I can't find any support for it having a shelf life of 27 to 100 years regardless of how it is stored. Iraqi produced Sarin in particular generally had impurities that reduced it's shelf life to a matter of weeks:
When the Iraqis produced chemical munitions they appeared to adhere to a “make and use” regimen. Judging by the information Iraq gave the United Nations,
later verified by on-site inspections, Iraq had poor product quality for their nerve agents. This low quality was likely due to a lack of purification. They had to get the agent to the front promptly or have it degrade in the munition.
Using their weapons soon after production probably worked well in the Iran-Iraq War, where the skies over Iraq were controlled by the Iraqis. Unfortunately for the Iraqis, loss of air control in the Gulf meant the weapons could never reach the front. The chemical munitions found in Iraq after the Gulf War contained badly deteriorated agents and a significant proportion
were visibly leaking.

I found the above quoted information in the Militarily Critical Technologies List (MCTL)


Are you saying that the only way to store sarin is in gas form or that you believe that is the only way the Iraqis knew how to store it?

I do not think visivible leaks would be uncommon for weapons stored in a third world country and I also wonder why you included that. I think if anything this would add to the dificulity of destruction.

You may want to consider that the use of chemical weapons may not have been the strategy of the Iraqi Hussein (not to be confused with the American Hussein). While they did not have control of the skies they were able to use
FA to some extent of course not as effectively as they would have liked.

Since you cite the Iraq report to the UN you know in that report they talk about the rocket warheads that were found designed for use with chemical weapons. This would avoid the need for control of airspace. They also mention the binary storage of sarin which since you guys want to talk about shelf life would be of more than a little interest.
 

av8torntn

Well-Known Member
I would also like you to consider this from emedicine.

In unitary agents, the chemicals were produced in a plant, loaded into the missile, and stored in a ready-to-use fashion. This method has several drawbacks. Because the munitions are highly toxic, storage, handling, and deployment need to be performed with extreme caution. Unitary weapons therefore pose a considerable risk to the ground crew and others who work with the chemicals.

The concept of binary weapons began to develop in the 1960s. Binary weapons involve nontoxic precursors that can be loaded in munitions. Once deployed, the precursors mix and develop the nerve agent.

1991: Iraq declares to the United Nations Special Commission (UNSCOM) a different binary munition concept. The projectiles would contain only 1 canister with a single precursor. Before use, the munition would be opened, and the second precursor would be added. The chemical reaction then starts just prior to the munition release.


I only bring this up because I think it is very important how this weapon is stored and I am bored. The path the Iraqi Government was taking would seem to lead to a very, very long shelf life. I know wiki says five years but I would however advise caution when placing your faith in something you read on the internet about chemical weapons. For all we know they may not have even produced the second part of the puzzle.

I ask this in a humble way. Do you really believe the reason no Soldiers died in the sarin IED attack in Iraq in 04 was because it was degraded? I have my reason to ask this. I know it is possible to find articles on the internet to defend whatever position you take but I just would like to know what you believe no reason to link to any article you think proves your point.
 
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