Stupidvisors working...a political debate

av8torntn

Well-Known Member
This links can offer some insight to the creation of war and all that goes into the creation of war. Give each some examination. Learn what was behind the IRAQI war concept.





Peace:peaceful:


Is this the war you said our enemy had no bullets or fuel?

Maybe you are ready to give up on that claim you made.

So when you make this false claim.


"Our current WAR reparations paid to the IRAQI people has just exceeded 500 million dollars. This money covers all the "my bads" committed by the US military.

Just a couple of fridays ago, a marine shot and killed an 11 year old girl because he claimed she was waiving her arms in a manner consistent with terrorists hand signals.

She turned out just to be waiving at the soldiers. The US goverment is now putting together a reparation payment for her family for the illegitimate loss of their daughter. This will cost the US taxpayers about a million dollars."


Why then do you post a link to this article?


http://www.iraqbodycount.org/database/

Let's see 90,000 Iraqi non combatant deaths at one million apiece. You come up with a grand total of 500 million dollars spent. This does not even include property damage. Of course we all know the marine you are talking about did not claim the little girl was waving her arms. Most of us know we do not pay one million dollars(yes I know what the real number is and no I will not tell you).

I am starting to see a pattern with your posts. So is this article wrong that you linked to or is it you again?
 

wkmac

Well-Known Member
AV8,

I know when you read this:

I invest heavily in researching facts and data.

You ask, i will provide,

You had to throw up your arms, roll your eyes and exclaim, "OH MY GOD, NOT ANOTHER ONE!" and thinking as well of me.
:rofl:

(Note to Brownshark), not laughing or making fun at ya but rather at myself and the thought of AV just shaking his head thinking he's got another idiot to deal with. Hoping you can enjopy the humor of the situation also. Sorry if you don't see the humor in it but when it's all said and done here, this whole exercise really is one big joke so why not laugh at the end of the day! I can honestly say I really don't take this website to serious so there you go!

AV and I have had some spirited debates over US Foreign policy although unlike yourself I've never mentioned, suggested or spoke of suggested, alledged or even proven acts like the killing of an 11 year old in theater because IMO the real root cause is not at the feet of the soldier but rather at the feet of civilian policy makers in Washington who in the vast majority of cases have never even held a weapon in hand.

I'll join you all day long in questioning policy as I initially gave some support to the Iraq invasion because of the potential and my belief was his WMD was likely stamped "Made in USA" along with some French and Russian stuff but that all began to change in 2005' for me. I've come to believe the US has pulled another 1960's CIA coup like the one used to install Saddam and the Baathist except this time instead of the CIA operatives using arms lenght plausible deniability, we used the US military with Congressional sanction under the leadership of Cheney and the small cadre of Neo-Cons http://www.newamericancentury.org/iraqclintonletter.htm who had postioned themselves with the Bush adminstration. I also believe we were acting on behalf of AIPAC who had an obvious interest https://web.archive.org/web/20060416082235/http://www.iasps.org/strat1.htm but the fear factor of pointing that out is so overwhelming. I also believe an economic connection in that Saddam was in process at the time of ending OPEC policy of all oil trades via US dollar and instead moving toward the Euro. https://web.archive.org/web/20080511231437/http://home.hiwaay.net/~becraft/IraqWarFRN.pdf This also helps explain IMO the reluctance of France and other European countries from wholeheartedly backing Saddam's removal. Their economic potential gain was substantial IMO. But that's OK, all's well that end's well as the Bush admistration has done a better job than Saddam at debasing the dollar on the world market. Maybe Bush moved against Saddam so he could beat him to the punch!
:happy-very:

Oddly enough, when the saber rattling towards Iran ramped up a couple of years ago, it coincided perfectly with Iran publicly moving towards opening up a new tradng market for oil using euros in place of doallrs http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/CLA410A.html in direct competition with New York and London which by trading policy are the only 2 centers for oil trading.)

Open point to subject matter

1 Timothy 6:10 sez,
"For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows." (KJV)

1 Timothy 3:3 goes on to say, "Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;" (KJV)

Lucre is middle english from the latin Lucrum and means money or profits. The evil is not money or profits in itself which can be gain via fair and honest means but filthy or ill gotten gain by means of evil intent or desires. You might also say that someone who doesn't respect the principles of freedom and liberty of others and their ability to operate and control their own productivity, natural resources etc. in a free and open market of honest and fair trade but rather those who use gov't control and manipulation up to and including military force would IMO fill the bill of the warnings of the 2 verses of 1 Timothy. I bet some of you thought I didn't know where a bible was much less what was in it! :happy-very:

To anyone, don't go there as if I'm saying money or profits is bad. Not by any stretch of ignorant imagination do I believe that! It's when the love or covetousness of money drives you to commit evil and that gain is the "filthy lucre" spoke of.

Brownshark, As for attacking wrongdoing in theater? That's on you as I refuse to go there. I'll stick to the root cause which if removed also removes the events of in theater. Other points you made in some of your posts I enjoyed and appreciated. Welcome yourself to the sandbox called the "Current Events" forum! And thanks for bringing Tie, he has the hots for me but of late he's been playing hard to get! I think he's cheating on me.

:wink2: @ Tie

AV,
You and I will disagree most likely till the cows come home on Middle East policy but rest assured, I'll never disrespect the uniform of the American soldier who serve wearing it. Maybe as hard as it is for you to believe, I've got friends over there and ones that have been so I've heard from perspectives up close and personal and it goes in all directions. When you have to react almost in an instant, you don't always have the luxury of taking the time to figure out all the circumstances around you. A delay of a split second could cost you your life. You have to make that choice of do I live or do I chance it? People's survival instincts kick in and any one of us in that same situation may also make the same choice that guns down an 11 year old child.

Unlike Cheney's assertion that the men and women "choose to be there", these men and women choose to serve and defend this country as mandated under constitutional authority and I happen to think a higher calling than being elected to public office BTW. Those men and women "choose to serve" under the belief and pretext that their service would be used to defend America from true foreign threats. AV, I know we disagree on those specifics but the bottom line for me again, is the root cause and the service men and women are not that in any way in my book.

JMO with all due respect to both you and Brownshark.

And that line is no joke!
:salute: to you both.
 

BrownShark

Banned
AV8,

Again, i am not sure if you made it out of reading comprehension in school, but again you fail to READ the preamble of the very link you post.

I will paste and bold out the parts you missed:

Graphs are based on the higher number in our totals. Gaps in recording and reporting suggest that even our highest totals to date may be missing many civilian deaths from violence. See Recent Events for as yet unpublished incidents, and read About IBC for a better description of the project's scope and limitations. Graphs are based on the higher number in our totals. Gaps in recording and reporting suggest that even our highest totals to date may be missing many civilian deaths from violence. See Recent Events for as yet unpublished incidents, and read About IBC for a better description of the project's scope and limitations.

Ya need to get the straight facts from the Iraqi goverment...Try researching the Iraqi health ministers recording of civilian deaths since 2003.

Nice try.

Peace.:wink2:
 

BrownShark

Banned
WKMAC,

Thanks for a well put articulate response.

I can say that I appreciate the well thought out factually correct explanation of an opinion on this subject.

I take no offense to your comments and I have great respect for your well stated positions. I find myself agreeing with most if not all.

For clarity, I stayed out of this conversation for the most part while it was going on, but as TIEGUY attempts to ridicule others for their positions, I tired of reading the dribble and joined in.

His continued cheerleading and one sided view of the war I found to be nauseating. It was time to point out that there are other sides to a war and not just one of success and victory.

Indeed, I support our troops for the effort and the sacrificing of their time away from family, I do not however support the mission as it is in its curent form.

Initially like all americans, WMD's and a threat to the world was the reason we ventured into war, now we are in the middle of a nation build gone wrong.

Those who say you cant support the troops doing their jobs correctly and also hold those troops who commit acts of violence against an innocent people responsible for those crimes is the one who is not a PATRIOT.

A true PATRIOT believes in justice, and justice for all.

Believe me, guys like AV8 who exagerate a clear point and try to turn it into something it wasnt only exasterbates an argument.

His claim that I said the ENTIRE IRAQI ARMY HAD no bullets is the biggest joke so far in the debate.

Even after being corrected twice, he continues to ask the same question.

Taking things out of context and using extreme hyperbole is the tool of an idiot.

We can all be guaranteed that TIME will be the final judge, and the debate among americans will continue to be just that, a debate.

Problem is, no one is listening.

Politics will continue to get young men and women killed in Iraq.

If these characters went back , re-read each post, kept things in context and tried to understand what was being said, they may find some interesting info there.

But dont count on it.

Peace.:peaceful:
 

BrownShark

Banned
AV8,

you wrote:

Just a couple of fridays ago, a marine shot and killed an 11 year old girl because he claimed she was waiving her arms in a manner consistent with terrorists hand signals.

She turned out just to be waiving at the soldiers. The US goverment is now putting together a reparation payment for her family for the illegitimate loss of their daughter. This will cost the US taxpayers about a million dollars."

Why then do you post a link to this article?

How does this sit with you?

March 13th, 2008 4:11 pm
US troops shoot Iraqi girl, 10, by accident

By Deborah Haynes in Baghdad / London Times
US troops accidentally killed an Iraqi girl after firing a warning shot at a dirt mound where they said a woman had been acting suspiciously in abprovince north of Baghdad.
The death, revealed today, came after another three American soldiers were killed in a rocket attack in southern Iraq, taking to 12 the number of US troops to die in the country in just three days.
American casualties had dropped in line with a decline in violence across the country since the summer, but a spate of bombings over the past few days highlight the tenuous nature of the much-trumpeted security gains.
The little girl, thought to be about 10 years old, was found yesterday behind the mound of earth in Diyala province, suffering from a gunshot wound.
Soldiers treated her at the scene and called for an emergency evacuation but she died en route to a medical facility.
The military, citing preliminary reports, said that troops had fired a warning shot into the mound near a “suspicious woman who appeared to be signaling to someone while the soldiers were in the area”.
Roadside bombs had been found recently in that part of the region.
Major Dan Meyers, a spokesman for US forces in northern Iraq, said: "Coalition forces take the loss of any innocent civilian life seriously and the incident will be thoroughly investigated."
The accidental shooting came in the same week as Iraqi and US officials began talks on future relations and the presence of American troops in the country after the current United Nations mandate expires at the end of this year.

Peace:peaceful:
 

wkmac

Well-Known Member
I find myself agreeing with most if not all.

Brownshark,

This is not good at all. I'll schedule you for a Mayo clinic visit with full testing so that a medication regime can be used to correct such advances of destructive mental disease. Diet and exercise might also prove helpful in managing the condition as well!

I told you I don't take this :censored2: serious!
:rofl:

BTW: Are you familar with Michael Scheuer, a 20 plus year retired veteran with the CIA and was the chief of the Alec Station, code name for the Bin Laden Issue Station within the agency from 1996' to 1999'? Scheuer most noted work is called "Imperial Hubris" but recently has come out with another book entitled, "Marching Toward Hell"

http://www.amazon.com/Marching-Toward-Hell-America-Islam/dp/0743299698 Amazon.com: Marching Toward Hell: America and Islam After Iraq: Michael Scheuer: Books


To my shock and almost wrecking the car coming home from work the other night, Micheal Savage had Scheuer on his show to discuss his new book. Give credit where credit is due, Savage did a great job although after the interview I turned the channel for some good progressive rock!
:happy-very:

Also check out the footnotes and links on the wiki article about Scheuer. some good stuff there including the interview with Scott Horton of Antiwar.com.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Scheuer
 

av8torntn

Well-Known Member
AV8,

you wrote:



How does this sit with you?

March 13th, 2008 4:11 pm
US troops shoot Iraqi girl, 10, by accident

By Deborah Haynes in Baghdad / London Times
US troops accidentally killed an Iraqi girl after firing a warning shot at a dirt mound where they said a woman had been acting suspiciously in abprovince north of Baghdad.
The death, revealed today, came after another three American soldiers were killed in a rocket attack in southern Iraq, taking to 12 the number of US troops to die in the country in just three days.
American casualties had dropped in line with a decline in violence across the country since the summer, but a spate of bombings over the past few days highlight the tenuous nature of the much-trumpeted security gains.
The little girl, thought to be about 10 years old, was found yesterday behind the mound of earth in Diyala province, suffering from a gunshot wound.
Soldiers treated her at the scene and called for an emergency evacuation but she died en route to a medical facility.
The military, citing preliminary reports, said that troops had fired a warning shot into the mound near a “suspicious woman who appeared to be signaling to someone while the soldiers were in the area”.
Roadside bombs had been found recently in that part of the region.
Major Dan Meyers, a spokesman for US forces in northern Iraq, said: "Coalition forces take the loss of any innocent civilian life seriously and the incident will be thoroughly investigated."
The accidental shooting came in the same week as Iraqi and US officials began talks on future relations and the presence of American troops in the country after the current United Nations mandate expires at the end of this year.

Peace:peaceful:


Ok so you admit that you lied? How does that sit with you?
 

av8torntn

Well-Known Member
AV8,




AV,
You and I will disagree most likely till the cows come home on Middle East policy but rest assured, I'll never disrespect the uniform of the American soldier who serve wearing it. Maybe as hard as it is for you to believe, I've got friends over there and ones that have been so I've heard from perspectives up close and personal and it goes in all directions. When you have to react almost in an instant, you don't always have the luxury of taking the time to figure out all the circumstances around you. A delay of a split second could cost you your life. You have to make that choice of do I live or do I chance it? People's survival instincts kick in and any one of us in that same situation may also make the same choice that guns down an 11 year old child.

.

Sorry I did not make my point clear. BS said that a Marine gunned down a little girl for waving her arms then paid the family 1 million dollars. This is likely not what happened. I am confident the 1 million dollar part is an outright lie. What the Marine said happened was an adult woman was using some kind of hand signals and he fired a warning shot into a dirt mound. A 10 year old girl was hiding behind the mound and died from her wounds. He then posted an article saying that is what happened. This is not what he said happened. Who is not telling the truth? There is an obvious pattern here. He says one thing and then posts an article saying the opposite. Probably none of us were on that convoy I know I was not. I am pretty sure BS was not. He decided to tell us what happened. I did not. I say he just flat out made it up to suit whatever point he was making. Is that clear enough? If he did not just make it up why did he post an article that gave a complete different account of what happened? I keep asking BS this question but he will not answer so I was thinking maybe you would.

BS said the republican guard units had no fuel or ammo. He posted it and when I question him on it I am supposed to be the idiot. The republican guard were among his best trained and best equipped units so why can I not figure if they had no ammo how could his other units? Look I do not blame you for giving up on your magic bullet theory. I do not blame you for giving up on the idea they moved all their tanks around with no fuel. You can admit you made it all up I could not think any less of you. He said I am like a cheerleader without a clue because I am on the sidelines watching a replay on TV. I do not know him and I would not say that about him. For all I know he may have done two back to back tours in Iraq. He may have met the Republican Guard head on. He may have been on the ground for all three elections. He may have had chemical weapons used against him. He may have a bronze star, purple heart and two ARCOM's with a V. I know he does not know me and I know that if he can honestly say that I am a cheerleader without a clue he must've done alot over there.

I noticed you called me and idiot BS. When you drop down to name calling it gives the impression that you are not very confident in your position.

Look I have no business in this debate. It was between Tie and BS and I offer my apologies for stepping in. I will step back out.


Oh and BS that story you posted sits great with me for 32 reasons you will never understand, or for the 29 purple hearts men in our company of 104 received. If the Marine followed TTP's for his AO he will have no problems.
 

wkmac

Well-Known Member
Sorry I did not make my point clear. BS said that a Marine gunned down a little girl for waving her arms then paid the family 1 million dollars. This is likely not what happened. I am confident the 1 million dollar part is an outright lie. What the Marine said happened was an adult woman was using some kind of hand signals and he fired a warning shot into a dirt mound. A 10 year old girl was hiding behind the mound and died from her wounds. He then posted an article saying that is what happened. This is not what he said happened.

Well my point had nothing to do with that, rather it was that I just don't go there at all no matter what. When things go well, the civilian wonks and policy planners are the first to the microphone to take credit whether deserved or not and when things go wrong, the first thing they try and do is throw some soldier or commander under the bus so they can save face. Those wrongs would never have happened to begin with had those policy decisions not been made in the first place. A soldier is bound by duty and oath to follow civilian commands no matter how good, bad or ugly they may be so with that I place blame for any wrong at the feet of those civilain policy wonks.

I noticed you called me and idiot BS.

I want to make sure this is not directed at me. In my post I called myself and BS idiots (not you) in regards to the humorous thought of you looking at BS and then considering myself and some of our playtime together. It was just making a bit of fun, mostly at the expense of myself and BS. I think your comment above wasn't directed at that but wasn't sure so wanted to clarify in case I was wrong. If you took it as insult towards you, it was in no way meant as such.

As for ducking out of this thread, why? You have just as much right to express an asolutely and completely wronghead opinion as I do or anyone else for that matter!

:rofl:

Be cool!
 

av8torntn

Well-Known Member
Well my point had nothing to do with that, rather it was that I just don't go there at all no matter what. When things go well, the civilian wonks and policy planners are the first to the microphone to take credit whether deserved or not and when things go wrong, the first thing they try and do is throw some soldier or commander under the bus so they can save face. Those wrongs would never have happened to begin with had those policy decisions not been made in the first place. A soldier is bound by duty and oath to follow civilian commands no matter how good, bad or ugly they may be so with that I place blame for any wrong at the feet of those civilain policy wonks.

I do not agree. No surprise there huh? It would be your obligation to not obey an illegal order. No surprise that there have been cases where people tried to not deploy on these grounds.

On the criminal part I understand what you are saying. I myself never post about US deaths out of respect for their sacrifice.



I want to make sure this is not directed at me. In my post I called myself and BS idiots (not you) in regards to the humorous thought of you looking at BS and then considering myself and some of our playtime together. It was just making a bit of fun, mostly at the expense of myself and BS. I think your comment above wasn't directed at that but wasn't sure so wanted to clarify in case I was wrong. If you took it as insult towards you, it was in no way meant as such.

BS was short for Brownshark. He posted this.

"Taking things out of context and using extreme hyperbole is the tool of an idiot."

This was directed toward me because he posted the Republican Guard had no fuel or ammo and then posted an article that said they put up a hard fight. He could not answer me when I asked multiple times which one of them was wrong. He could have just picked one and it would have been over. I take none of this as an insult at me but thanks for asking.


As for ducking out of this thread, why? You have just as much right to express an asolutely and completely wronghead opinion as I do or anyone else for that matter!

:rofl:

Yes but I had no intention of becoming the debate for BS I was just curious if BS knew he was making those things up or if he was unaware of it. I think BS is aware that what he posted was false. He said I did not make it out of elementary school and that I am an idiot which does not bother me but you guys had an entertaining debate going on so it is best to duck out with hopes that you can get back to it.

Be cool!
 

wkmac

Well-Known Member
AV,

No surprise you disagree!
:happy-very:

AV, I may think you are wrong or misguided about some issues but an idiot you absolutely ain't!

JMHO!
 

wkmac

Well-Known Member
Just thought I would add one one thing. The MSM will likely not report this.

http://www.longwarjournal.org/archives/2008/03/mahdi_army_taking_si.php

Someone on this thread was using the Mehdi Army to make the point of how bad things are in Iraq. Well looks like it may be bad news for the Mehdi Army.

It got discussed this morning on Meet the Press when Russert interviewed CIA Director Gen. Hayden. Hayden pointed out this operation was done almost exclusively by Iraqi forces and that Maliki only informed the US once their operations were underway. Seems like from what I heard the Iraqi's picked up their own ball and ran with it. That's a good thing. Let them settle their own situation.

Hayden also pointed out that this operation went a long way in re-uniting Southern Iraq and the Basrah area with Bagdhad. Maliki called the Madhi army (Shi'a islam) worse than Al Qaeda and Maliki is also of Shi'a islam which is of Persian (Iran) origin. Al Qaeda as we know is Sunni which is Arab origin but the comparison was interesting none the less IMO.

Just a side note from a Sci-Fi angle that I always found interesting. The name Madhi in Shia Islam relates to a belief in a type of coming deliever or Messiah in a sense.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahdi

In the Sci-fi channel movie Dune, the hero was known by the name Mahdi (Mohadeeb in the original 1980's movie version)and I always found that and the close comparison of spice malenge to oil, the Fremen to islamic peoples and the planet Dune to the Middle East itself very interesting. Even in both movie versions the end result of the Paul Atreides character fulfilling a Madhi archatype persona was always so interesting to me. It was as if the late Frank Herbert was fore shadowing a type of thing to come.

Sci-Fi has a canny nack for taking earthly situations and transposing them to off world places in order to give the viewer a different look without disrupting pre-concieved notions or judgements. If one is open to some clarity and has some basic knowledge of customs or beliefs, a connection is made! Star Wars is another film loaded with regilous (thank you Joseph Campbell) and even political symbolism.

Another alltime fav of mine is the 60's sci-fi Fahrenheit 451 which is about a society without books. A remake is underway as we speak and I hope it's as good as the original! Now if they would just do a movie of Atlas Shrugged to go alone with The Fountainhead!

:peaceful:

BTW: If any of you like music and enjoy a good family movie with a good human story, August Rush is my must see movie suggestion!
 

BrownShark

Banned
LOL, stuck in a time warp ? This article is from 2003. What a dimwit.:happy-very:

Tie,

I must be in the same timewarp as yourself, your Brookings analyst that you posted, that not only didnt back up your claims, also was written in May 03.

23-May-03 — Brookings report-
A range of officials have rightly lauded recent progress in the war on terrorism. In his State of the Union address, President Bush declared, "We have the terrorists on the run. We're keeping them on the run. One by one, the terrorists are learning the meaning of American justice." Several months later, Attorney General John Ashcroft claimed, "We are winning the war on terrorism." Highlighting this progress was the March arrest of Khalid Shaikh Mohammed—the most devastating of a series of deaths, arrests, and disruptions that al Qaeda has suffered since the September 11 attacks.

Guess you are a dimwit as well.

Peace.:peaceful:
 

BrownShark

Banned
From Last week:

‘Iraqi security forces lose equivalent of NYPD in 18 months.’»

Lt. Gen. Martin Dempsey yesterday told a congressional committee that approximately 18,000 members of the U.S.-trained Iraqi police “had been lost from the newly trained force of 188,000 in the 18 months before January. … Between eight to 10,000 are believed killed in action and six to 8,000 more have been wounded severely enough so they cannot serve. Dempsey also says possibly 13,000 more have deserted or are unaccounted for.”


Yeah, real progress.

Peace.:knockedout:
 

BrownShark

Banned
Civilian death toll in Iraq may have surpassed 1 million
With many casualties not reported, official tallies differ
By Agence France Presse (AFP)

Tuesday, March 25, 2008

BAGHDAD: While the number of US troops killed in Iraq since the 2003 invasion stands at 4,000, up to three times as many Iraqi soldiers have died - and the number of civilians killed runs into tens and probably hundreds of thousands. The icasualties.org Web site, based only on published reports, shows that around 8,000 members of the Iraqi security forces have died since the March 2003 invasion. Last year, however, the Iraqi government put the figure at 12,000.
There is no agreement when it comes to civilian casualties, particularly as many deaths are never reported in the media.
In January, a joint UN World Health Organization and the Iraqi government study concluded that between 104,000 and 223,000 Iraqis had died violently since the invasion.
As of March 24, the independent Iraq Body Count Web site, based solely on incidents reported by the media, suggested close to 90,000 deaths, of which over a quarter died in 2007.
At the high end of the scale, British polling institute Opinion Research Business in a report published on January 30 estimated the total number of civilian deaths at between 946,000 and 1.12 million.
The Lancet, a respected British medical review, quoted a statistical survey which found that as of July 2006 some 655,000 more civilians had died than would have been the case if there had been no war.
The scars run deep in Iraqi society. Umm Mohammad, a 49-year-old widow in Baghdad's western Mansur neighborhood whose husband was abducted and shot by gunmen 15 months ago, bitterly blamed the US military for the loss, which has profoundly affected her family.
Her two daughters, both in college, are still in mourning while her son, in secondary school, is so depressed he failed his exams last year. They have been forced to move in with her husband's family to survive.
"Why does the world care so much about the 4,000 soldiers killed? No one cares about the Iraqis," said Umm Mohammad, a Sunni Arab.
"All the killings in Iraq are because of the Americans. They are the cause of all the bloodshed. I ask God to kill all the American soldiers - to count them all and not leave any one of them," she said. "The world regards the American soldiers as our saviors but they are murderers."

As a grim reminder that civilian casualties are mounting relentlessly, the chief of Baghdad's main morgue said Monday there had been a spike in the number of corpses received over the past fortnight amid a new wave of violence in and around the Iraqi capital.
The mortuary has received an average of 15 bodies per day of people killed in violent attacks in Baghdad in this period, up from an average of two bodies a day since the beginning of the year, said morgue general director Munjid Rezali.
Ivana Vuco, human rights officer for the UN Assistance Mission for Iraq, said last month that tracking civilian deaths in Iraq was a "huge problem."
"Some reports do not even come to us," she said.
Among civilians who have died are those who have been accidentally killed in raids and air strikes by US-led forces while targeting insurgents.
Although there is no accurate count, according to the United Nations 123 civilian deaths alone were reported due to air strikes in the six-month period between July 1, 2007, and December 31, 2007.
According to icasualties.org, 308 soldiers from other countries who have formed part of the US-led coalition have been killed in Iraq since the invasion.
Among countries that still have forces in Iraq, the death tolls as of March 24 were: Britain, with 175 deaths; Poland, with 23 deaths; Ukraine with 18 deaths; Bulgaria, with 13 deaths; and Denmark, with eight deaths.
For countries that took part in earlier stages of the occupation, but have now withdrawn, the main losses were Italy with 33 deaths and Spain with 11.
According to the Journalists Freedom Observatory (JFO), which monitors violence against the media, 233 Iraqi and foreign journalists and media workers have been killed in Iraq since 2003. - AFP

Copyright 2008 The Daily Star​



Yeah, liberation.

Peace.:peaceful:
 

BrownShark

Banned
March 27, 2008 Sadr Offensive Shows Failure of Petraeus Strategy
by Gareth PorterThe escalation of fighting between Mahdi Army militiamen and their Shi'ite rivals, which could mark the end of Moqtada al-Sadr's self-imposed cease-fire, also exposes Gen. David Petraeus' strategy for controlling Sadr's forces as a failure.
Petraeus reacted immediately to Sunday's rocket attacks on the Green Zone by blaming them on Iran. He told the BBC the rockets were "Iranian provided, Iranian-made rockets," and that they were launched by groups that were funded and trained by the Quds Force of Iran's Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps (IRGC). Petraeus said this was "in complete violation of promises made by President [Mahmoud] Ahmadinejad and other most senior Iranian leaders to their Iraqi counterparts."
Petraeus statement was clearly intended to divert attention from a development that threatens one of the two main pillars of the administration's claim of progress in Iraq – the willingness of Sadr to restrain the Mahdi Army, even in the face of systematic raids on its leadership by the U.S. military and its Iraqi allies.
The rocket attacks appear to have been one of several actions by the Mahdi Army to warn the United States and the Iraqi government to halt their systematic raids aimed at driving the Sadrists out of key Shi'ite centers in the south. They were followed almost immediately by Mahdi Army clashes with rival Shi'ite militiamen in Basra, Sadr City, and Kut and a call for a nationwide general strike to demand the release of Sadrist detainees.
Even more pointed was a strong warning from Sadr aide Abdul-Hadi al-Mohammedawi to the United States as well as to the Islamic Supreme Council of Iraq (ISCI), whose Badr Organization militiamen, in the uniforms of Iraqi security forces, have targeted the Madhi Army throughout the south. "They don't seem to realize that the Sadrist trend is like a volcano," he told worshippers Friday in Kufa. "If it explodes, it will crush their rotten heads."
The signs that the Madhi Army will no longer remain passive mark a major defeat for the U.S. military command's strategy aimed at weakening the Mahdi Army.
When he took command in Iraq in early 2007, Petraeus recognized that the U.S. occupation forces could not afford to wage a full-fledged campaign against the Mahdi Army as a whole. Instead it adopted a strategy of dividing the Sadrist movement.
Petraeus and the ground commander in Iraq, Lt. Gen. Ray Odierno, hoped that there were leaders in the Sadrist movement who would be willing to give up further military resistance and accept the U.S. occupation and the existing government.
For months, the command tried to generate a "dialogue" with "moderates" in the Sadrist camp. It issued a series of statements hailing Sadr's willingness to change the purpose of his movement. Most recently, on Jan. 17, Odierno said, "I believe he is trying to move forward with more of a religious organization and get away from a militia type-supported organization" But he admitted, "That could change."
Meanwhile, Petraeus targeted selected elements of the Mahdi Army in raids in Sadr City and the Shi'ite south, portraying its targets as "criminals" and "rogue elements" which had broken away from Sadr and were armed, trained and financed by Iran. Odierno suggested in his Jan. 17 press briefing that such renegade groups were causing "the majority of the violence."
But the "moderate" Sadrists who would be willing to make a deal with the U.S. never materialized. Last July, a U.S. commander in Baghdad claimed that Sadrist representatives had initiated "indirect" talks with the U.S. military. But in January, Odierno would say only that they had been meeting with "local leaders" in Sadr City, not with representatives of the Sadrist movement.
The Mahdi Army's blunt warnings of military countermeasures followed months of raids against Sadr's political-military organization by both U.S. forces and the Badr Organization. According to a senior Sadrist parliamentarian, between 2,000 and 2,500 Mahdi Army militiamen had been detained since Sadr declared a cease-fire last August.
The raids have been aimed at weakening the Madhi Army's political hold on Shi'ite cities in anticipation of eventual provincial elections.
During 2007 there were signs of strong support for Sadr in Najaf, Basra, and Karbala, as Sudarsan Raghavan reported in the Washington Post last December. In Najaf, portraits of Sadr and his father, Grand Ayatollah Mohammed Sadiq Sadr, who was assassinated by Saddam Hussein's security forces in 1999, had "mushroomed defiantly in the streets."
Sadr's image had also been "pervasive" in Karbala, according to Raghavan, until security forces loyal to the ISCI arrested more than 400 of Sadr's followers in an obvious effort to destroy its organization in the city.
For months Sadr had refrained from authorizing a full-fledged response to such attacks on his forces. But Tuesday an officer at Sadr's headquarters in Najaf said the Mahdi Army should be prepared to "strike the occupiers" as well as the Badr Organization
Revealing the contradictions built into the U.S. position in Iraq, even as it was blaming Iran for the alleged renegade units of the Mahdi Army, the U.S. was using the Badr Organization, the military arm of the ISCI, to carry out raids against the Mahdi Army. The Badr Organization and the ISCI had always been and remained the most pro-Iranian political-military forces in Iraq, having been established, trained, and funded by the IRGC from Shi'ite exiles in Iran during the Iran-Iraq war.
It was the ISCI leader Abdul-Aziz al-Hakim who had invited two IRGC officers to be his guests in December 2006, apparently to discuss military assistance to the Badr Organization. The Iranian officials were seized in the home of home of Hadi al-Ameri, the leader of the Badr Organization and detained by the U.S. military. The Bush administration continued throughout 2007 to cite those Iranian visitors as evidence of the IRGC's illicit intervention in Iraq.
But the Badr Organization had become the indispensable element of the Iraqi government's security forces, who could be counted on to oppose the Mahdi Army in the south. And in a further ironic twist, it was the leaders of the ISCI and of the Nouri al-Maliki government, which depended on Iranian support, who insisted last summer and fall that the United States should credit Iran with having prevailed on Sadr to agree to a cease-fire. The close collaboration of the U.S. command with these pro-Iranian groups against Sadr appears to be the main reason for the State Department's endorsement of that argument last December.
The Petraeus assertion that the rocket attacks on the Green Zone were Iranian-inspired strongly implied that Iran is still providing arms to Shi'ite militias. However, Odierno told a press briefing in mid-January, "We are not sure if they're still importing [sic] weapons into Iraq."
That admission came only after many months in which U.S. officers in the border provinces were unable to find any evidence of arms coming across the border from Iran.


Yeah, settling down Tie,

Peace:peaceful:
 
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