Teamcare unsustainable. Hoffa words, not mine.

kingOFchester

Well-Known Member
Re: Hoffa finally admits it!!!

http://blogs.wsj.com/corporate-intelligence/2013/07/12/union-letter-obamacare-will-destroy-the-very-health-and-wellbeing-of-workers/



Psst - Dude,

http://www.browncafe.com/forum/f39/teamcare-unsustainable-hoffa-words-not-mine-351379/

But it appears most on here think Hoffa is just using this as a ploy and making it sound worse then it is...... Just politics. However, when UPS says they will not provide Health insurance, these same posters do not see that as a ploy in negotiations.
 

Catatonic

Nine Lives
It's a Grand Plan!
Teamsters provide healthcare via UPS funding.
Obamacare screws things up so much, the Teamsters stop offering Healthcare.
Teamster employees and retirees get their insurance through the US Government.
UPS contributions to healthcare is diverted to pension funds.
Teamster pension funds has all kind of money because of the extra UPS contributions and the fact that Teamster retirees die earlier due to Obamacare.

Seems simple to me.


 

kingOFchester

Well-Known Member
Grand Plan.
Teamsters provide healthcare via UPS funding.
Obamacare screws things up so much, the Teamsters stop offering Healthcare.
Teamsters get their insurance through the US Government.
UPS contributions to healthcare is diverted to pension funds.
Teamster pension funds has all kind of money because of the extra money and Teamster retirees die earlier due to Obamacare.

Seems simple to me.


Ding ding ding. We have a winner. Pass go and collect 200.
 

Coldworld

60 months and counting
The National Master was approved by the members, so UPS HC is over and done. Our only option in the West is the carve out plan and that will not be a UPS plan as we have been accustomed to, but it will be better than C6 Enhanced.
Has there been any other issues that could be brought into the western supplement that members were wanting but didn't get the first time around.
 

InsideUPS

Well-Known Member
Your analogy needs work too as any plan could be deemed "unsafe" since the ACA is in a state of flux and will continue to be. Keeping your UPS plan as it is today is not an option anymore and 'here' we aren't moving to Teamcare we're getting our own plan.

So, why is it that Hoffa/Hall will not allow us "here".... to get our own plan? I spoke of this before..."autonomy" at each Local... Even after a "unanimous petition signing", we are being informed that we will be "forced" into "TeamCare".

So many injustices and unknowns about TeamCare. (new members getting the "enhanced C6 plan vs. the current members receiving a lower benefit to name one) Hoffa has no clue how many current UPS union members will feel betrayed by forcing us into a possible "unsustainable plan". Benefits in this plan could easily be reduced at anytime.

As far as your last question: "Just a question for others who have in the past condemned political activites by Union leaders like Hoffa. This letter is one of those activities you railed against & cried about your dues being spent on (even though they aren't). Do you feel differently now that his actions are railing against your current pariah the ACA?"

Hoffa is simply doing what he has been elected paid to do, stand up for issues that will adversely affect Union members. The ACA is not one single "pariah" in my mind, it is a complex bi-partisan issue that involves both political parties in some fashion.
 

InsideUPS

Well-Known Member
Letter sent to Obama with Hoffa signature:

Union Letter: Obamacare Will ‘Destroy The Very Health and Wellbeing’ of Workers - Corporate Intelligence - WSJ

"...........And finally, even though non-profit plans like ours won’t receive the same subsidies as for-profit plans, they’ll be taxed to pay for those subsidies. Taken together, these restrictions will make non-profit plans like ours unsustainable, and will undermine the health-care market of viable alternatives to the big health insurance companies............."

But lets not discuss this non issue. Lets talk about fans in the trucks. Or the 9.5 list. Or vacation days. Thats what important, Not the fact that our leader says that our Teamcare is "unsustainable":angry::angry::angry:

Hoffa, if it is unsustainable, why move all of us into the plan???? What a joke, if it weren't so serious. Ok, carry on.......can i get a fan in my truck? That is the real issue...........


Lets hope TDU will see this and use it in their campaign, being that a lot of teamsters read the TDU website.

Thank you for the link kingOFchester......certainly "food for thought" and certainly an "eye opener" on this very important issue...

I applaud Hoffa for writing this extremely important letter to political leaders. Hoffa is obviously between a "rock and a hard place" as they say. You actually cannot blame Hoffa considering he was relying on Obama and other leaders to keep certain promises.... regarding our healthcare...

That said, please Mr. Hoffa, do NOT FORCE us into TeamCare...... allow each and every Local to "shop" for their own healthcare plans.... plans that will serve their own members in the most equitable and SUSTAINABLE fashion....
 

browned_out

Well-Known Member
Thank you for the link kingOFchester......certainly "food for thought" and certainly an "eye opener" on this very important issue...

I applaud Hoffa for writing this extremely important letter to political leaders. Hoffa is obviously between a "rock and a hard place" as they say. You actually cannot blame Hoffa considering he was relying on Obama and other leaders to keep certain promises.... regarding our healthcare...

That said, please Mr. Hoffa, do NOT FORCE us into TeamCare...... allow each and every Local to "shop" for their own healthcare plans.... plans that will serve their own members in the most equitable and SUSTAINABLE fashion....

Why not divide the 140,000 people in question, into already established union plans in there regions/states? I bet the money from UPS could be better spent on upgrading all plans not just CS.
 

Brokedownandbrown

Well-Known Member
Healthcare issue has planned,

IBT and UPS had a plan to deal with Obamacare. Knowing the details of the new healthcare system UPS baited IBT and Hall took it hook, line, and sinker or Hoffa has known the plan all the time. UPS would have had to pay millions for Cadillac plan now in place. IBT knows that UPS is their GOLDEN GOOSE and agree to almost anything to save their ass. WE all will be paying for healthcare in the near future. I really feel for the retirees that have to rely on Central States an Blue Cross and Shaft.

Hall grandstanding about ninety dollars, nine dollars, or nine cents was for show, and with that scare Hoffa and Hall thought the masses would be a yea for this contract. What is so different with this contract verses the last? What did we really win?
 

InsideUPS

Well-Known Member
Letter sent to Obama with Hoffa signature:

Union Letter: Obamacare Will ‘Destroy The Very Health and Wellbeing’ of Workers - Corporate Intelligence - WSJ

"...........And finally, even though non-profit plans like ours won’t receive the same subsidies as for-profit plans, they’ll be taxed to pay for those subsidies. Taken together, these restrictions will make non-profit plans like ours unsustainable, and will undermine the health-care market of viable alternatives to the big health insurance companies............."

But lets not discuss this non issue. Lets talk about fans in the trucks. Or the 9.5 list. Or vacation days. Thats what important, Not the fact that our leader says that our Teamcare is "unsustainable":angry::angry::angry:

Hoffa, if it is unsustainable, why move all of us into the plan???? What a joke, if it weren't so serious. Ok, carry on.......can i get a fan in my truck? That is the real issue...........


Lets hope TDU will see this and use it in their campaign, being that a lot of teamsters read the TDU website.

Has anyone taken the time to read the comments associated with this article? Many anti-Union comments.....

​Here is one example:

"Didn’t Jimmy Hoffa say something to the effect that republicans should answer in hell for not going along with ACA?
Well Jimmy, guess what, you spent your lives living on the same democratic plantation as African Americans and now that you are going to get the short end of socialized medicine you are finding out that American business is chock full of options to reduce labor force participation and change the way work will be done in the US.
Jimmy, why do you think the stock market is hitting record highs? Because American business is lean and mean and is not going to featherbed its workforce in the corrupting way your unions demanded when you had the power.
We are going to be a part-timer America and the only way out is full repeal of ObamaCare. I guess the unions have finally figured out the only beneficiaries of health reform are the takers who get given free healthcare at the expense of the makers that earned healthcare as part of their agreement to work; to make, and not to take."
 

Bagels

Family Leave Fridays!!!
As I've written to you before, UPS (as TeamCare will be) is self-insured, not fully-insured. The advantage of being self-insured (which requires economies of scale) is that you spend significantly less on coverage than you would in a fully-insured plan. In other words, UPS's actual per-employee cost is less than half the market value of your plan indicated on the W-2. Individual locals cannot "shop" for health insurance, as the monies they receive are insufficient to buy anything but a basic level of coverage. I assume many current union-controlled plans are fully-insured (since members receive an HMO option, which is typically not available via self-insurance) but a national roll out would cost UPS significantly more thus rendering it impractical. Self-insurance works best for PTers because a large chunk is young & single.

Thank you for the link kingOFchester......certainly "food for thought" and certainly an "eye opener" on this very important issue...

I applaud Hoffa for writing this extremely important letter to political leaders. Hoffa is obviously between a "rock and a hard place" as they say. You actually cannot blame Hoffa considering he was relying on Obama and other leaders to keep certain promises.... regarding our healthcare...

That said, please Mr. Hoffa, do NOT FORCE us into TeamCare...... allow each and every Local to "shop" for their own healthcare plans.... plans that will serve their own members in the most equitable and SUSTAINABLE fashion....
 

InsideUPS

Well-Known Member
As I've written to you before, UPS (as TeamCare will be) is self-insured, not fully-insured. The advantage of being self-insured (which requires economies of scale) is that you spend significantly less on coverage than you would in a fully-insured plan. In other words, UPS's actual per-employee cost is less than half the market value of your plan indicated on the W-2. Individual locals cannot "shop" for health insurance, as the monies they receive are insufficient to buy anything but a basic level of coverage. I assume many current union-controlled plans are fully-insured (since members receive an HMO option, which is typically not available via self-insurance) but a national roll out would cost UPS significantly more thus rendering it impractical. Self-insurance works best for PTers because a large chunk is young & single.

Just an FYI.....our Local does shop for health insurance....for the full-timers... Our FT employees have a local health insurance provider with benefits that exceed anything offered with the TeamCare C6 enhanced plan......we PT employees simply want to be part of the same plan within our Local.
 
As I've written to you before, UPS (as TeamCare will be) is self-insured, not fully-insured. The advantage of being self-insured (which requires economies of scale) is that you spend significantly less on coverage than you would in a fully-insured plan. In other words, UPS's actual per-employee cost is less than half the market value of your plan indicated on the W-2. Individual locals cannot "shop" for health insurance, as the monies they receive are insufficient to buy anything but a basic level of coverage. I assume many current union-controlled plans are fully-insured (since members receive an HMO option, which is typically not available via self-insurance) but a national roll out would cost UPS significantly more thus rendering it impractical. Self-insurance works best for PTers because a large chunk is young & single.
Hope the run Teamcare, better than my pension fund.....If not we are all in big trouble...............60 years and out? Or drop dead first??
 

kingOFchester

Well-Known Member
Re: Healthcare issue has planned,

I said it from the start, the going around with the dog and pony show was an act. UPS/Hall/Hoffa had this in the works long before the rallies.

If you are going to serve me a huge, hot, steamy pile of crap, don't try and pass it off as a chocolate mouse pie. Have the balls to call it what it is.

Come out and say, 'we screwed up. We endorsed Obozocare and it is now biting us all in the rear. We have no choice but to take control of the HC. It will be a bitter pill to swallow, but there really is no option.' I would still not be pleased, but it would be better then the games being played.'
 

Bagels

Family Leave Fridays!!!
One issue I have never been clear on is; "how much money UPS actually spends on individual health care plans for employees?" (is it truly the amount on my W2). Considering UPS is "self-insured", does UPS pay out only the actual expenses incurred by the covered employees or do they pay an actual set amount for each employee to a health insurance provider? I realize that Aetna has always "administered" the plans, however I'm not sure they actually pay the claims from Aetna funds.

The value of the health plan listed on your W-2 is the market rate; as UPS is self-insured, it spends less. When you're fully insured you pay a fixed amount to the plan administer, who then covers all contracted amounts. UPS is the plan administer - it pays providers (Aetna, Kaiser, Blue Cross -- there's dozens nationally) to manage the plan, but covers all contracted costs out-of-pocket from a fund it makes a finite contribution to as negotiated with IBT.

Example of Fully Insured vs Self Insured:
- In a fully insured policy, the employer signs a contract with Aetna. After the premium is paid, Aetna pays all claims & costs incurred by the participant -- whether they use the plan or not. This is why the % of people with dental insurance continues to drop at a torrid place -- employers are upset that they're paying significantly more than what's been paid out.

- In a self insured policy, the employer pays a few bucks toward Aetna (and other proividers) to manage all claims & costs incurred by the participant, but the actual monies being dispensed comes from the employer. If the employee does not use the insurance, it costs the employer nothing (beyond a small amount for fee management).
 
Re: Healthcare issue has planned,

I said it from the start, the going around with the dog and pony show was an act. UPS/Hall/Hoffa had this in the works long before the rallies.

If you are going to serve me a huge, hot, steamy pile of crap, don't try and pass it off as a chocolate mouse pie.
I think they offered this contract....to scare all the old timers out. Its working.!! We had lots of guys retire, so they would not lose their healthcare!!!!!
 

Bagels

Family Leave Fridays!!!
Just an FYI.....our Local does shop for health insurance....for the full-timers... Our FT employees have a local health insurance provider with benefits that exceed anything offered with the TeamCare C6 enhanced plan......we PT employees simply want to be part of the same plan within our Local.

Because FTers skew older, have families and are committed to a career (e.g. you know the workforce will age). The monies UPS pays out in claims for them may be comparable toward the fully insured market, depending on the region's demographics & usage.

But PTers skew younger, many lack families and most stay for several years tops... before being replaced with a work groups that skews younger, lacks familes, etc. You get the idea. Many of these PTers cost UPS nothing more than a few hundred bucks per year. Transitioning them toward a fully-insured plan would cost thousands.

UPS is seeking to lower its health costs, not increase them. You may not like the idea, but you need to accept it.
 

brownmonster

Man of Great Wisdom
Re: Healthcare issue has planned,

I said it from the start, the going around with the dog and pony show was an act. UPS/Hall/Hoffa had this in the works long before the rallies.

If you are going to serve me a huge, hot, steamy pile of crap, don't try and pass it off as a chocolate mouse pie. Have the balls to call it what it is.

Come out and say, 'we screwed up. We endorsed Obozocare and it is now biting us all in the rear. We have no choice but to take control of the HC. It will be a bitter pill to swallow, but there really is no option.' I would still not be pleased, but it would be better then the games being played.'

​I happen to like chocolate mouse pie.
 

InsideUPS

Well-Known Member
UPS is seeking to lower its health costs, not increase them. You may not like the idea, but you need to accept it.

With all due respect Bagels, with ideology like; "You may not like the idea, but you need to accept it", we would still be in the dark ages and accepting beliefs like the earth is flat, women should not vote, slavery is okay. "You get the idea". If we had to accept everything presented to us at UPS.....we would still be making minimum wage....

No Bagels, I will not accept the belief that we part-time employees have to take concessions in our health care when we are members of a Union....... involved in collective bargaining. I realize that you are in college studying to become an actuary however, "ivory tower" concepts do not always apply to the real world. Hopefully Hoffa's letter to our political leaders will have some positive impact on our health insurance........ Hoffa was basically lied to by our politicians......now isn't that something new?

It may eventually happen Bagels......however....I will never accept the idea gracefully and without some form of verbal or written protest to those that represent us...
 

Bagels

Family Leave Fridays!!!
The flaw with your arguments is that the pot of money is only so large. In the negotiated contract, IBT was likely more successful in securing larger increases economics than UPS had been willing to pay. You can already see the fallout, with disgruntled Freight and managerial employees. In other words, if you want to maintain the status quo benefits, you're going to have to relinquish a portion of your raise or contribute toward the cost (premium).

As I've previously written, consider the current benefits. The ER co-pay is so low that members go there for petty reasoning; they don't know and don't care that the ER is a VERY expensive place to visit. It's not free or low cost -- UPS is simply picking up the tab. There are oodles of other examples I can think of, such as members foolhardily filling prescriptions they don't want or need just because it's "free" and yields them at $25 gift card at Target, Safeway, CVS, etc. Higher costs & escalators in the new insurance are necessarily a bad thing. I would rather see a bigger raise than continue to pay for people's ignorant decision to take their kids to the ER because they got gas after eating a Bloomin' Onion at Outback.

Personally, I'd love to see a more modern health plan. E.g. One that charged $30-$40 (instead of $10) for a PCP visit, but waived two per family member per year as well as all those related to a serious illness (e.g. cancer). $500 per member would be deposited into a health savings account to spend on higher costs, as well as OTC drugs, etc. Such plans require more critical thinking on the member's end, and lower costs on the provider's.





With all due respect Bagels, with ideology like; "You may not like the idea, but you need to accept it", we would still be in the dark ages and accepting beliefs like the earth is flat, women should not vote, slavery is okay. "You get the idea". If we had to accept everything presented to us at UPS.....we would still be making minimum wage....

No Bagels, I will not accept the belief that we part-time employees have to take concessions in our health care when we are members of a Union....... involved in collective bargaining. I realize that you are in college studying to become an actuary however, "ivory tower" concepts do not always apply to the real world. Hopefully Hoffa's letter to our political leaders will have some positive impact on our health insurance........ Hoffa was basically lied to by our politicians......now isn't that something new?

It may eventually happen Bagels......however....I will never accept the idea gracefully and without some form of verbal or written protest to those that represent us...
 
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