The FedEx PR Crisis

Route 66

Slapped Upside-da-Head Member
MFE, I'm not a great evangelist but allow me to try and answer your question as best I can.

God cannot let sin go unpunished ("the wages of sin is death) but He knew that we could never possibly atone for our sins ourselves. It is impossible not to sin, and if we break but one of the commandments, we have broken them all.

Every last one of us would be up poop creek without a paddle and no amount of good deeds we pulled off would ever save us. This is where in his boundless love and mercy for us He sent the gift of His Son Jesus to take the punishment that we deserved.

Jesus got what we deserved so that we could have what He deserved. It's a free gift - all anyone need do to receive it is to simply accept it. No chants, no pennance, no jumping through religious hoops. We have a hard time believing that it could actually be that simple.

I know that people are rolling their eyes reading this (time was when I would have reacted the same way). Why not just make us all angels who never did anything wrong?, folks will ask. He could have, but then we would all just be puppets dancing on the end of God's golden strings. Instead He chose to give us all free will.

As I said, I'm not very good at this and always a bit fearful that I might actually send somebody further back the other direction if I say the wrong thing. Hopefully that isn't the case here and perhaps this will help at least a little.

Is Christianity full of hippocrates? Darn right it is, and I am one of them. It's one of my many sins. I am not perfect - far far from it - so it's a good thing I have a Saviour who is!
 

59 Dano

I just want to make friends!
Dano. Why did Christ have to die? Why didn't God just say "knock it off", and "don't sin". No superior attitude and no arrogance...just a simple question.

The short answer is that only the blood of a sinless creature to cleanse a person of his sins. Animals were sacrificed for that purpose. God determined that a sinless human would be sacrificed so that his blood would cleanse all of humanity of all sins. Accepting that Jesus died is akin to being cleansed by the blood.

This is discussed much further at great length all over the web.
 

59 Dano

I just want to make friends!
Yeah I don't know what this stereotype of atheists is coming from. In youth this number is growing substantially, which means if trends continue, each gen will be more and more driven by science and demanding proof to believe further. This is the trend.

There are some things that science and proof can't accomplish. Like I said, the universe is infinite, yet infinitely expanding with no end in sight, and humans are arrogant enough to be dismissive of a higher power? LOL
 

DontThrowPackages

Well-Known Member
The short answer is that only the blood of a sinless creature to cleanse a person of his sins. Animals were sacrificed for that purpose. God determined that a sinless human would be sacrificed so that his blood would cleanse all of humanity of all sins. Accepting that Jesus died is akin to being cleansed by the blood.

This is discussed much further at great length all over the web.
Oh thanks for clearing things up. The person who sets the rules, who could just forgive these sinners without more killing, decided to send down his son, let him cure the sick, spread the word of love and peace, only to be slaughtered alive for the sins of mankind. Makes sense, especially when mankind hasn't stopped sinning. I think the story of flooding the world to kill everyone because of sinning makes more sense to me. Maybe faith means throwing logic out the window. Maybe David Koresh was sent by God to forgive our sins as well? Its very possible.
 

59 Dano

I just want to make friends!
Oh thanks for clearing things up. The person who sets the rules, who could just forgive these sinners without more killing, decided to send down his son, let him cure the sick, spread the word of love and peace, only to be slaughtered alive for the sins of mankind. Makes sense, especially when mankind hasn't stopped sinning.

And that's why everyone else rolls their eyes at non-believers' flippant attitudes. He didn't send his son to stop man from sinning. Man was given the ability to do as he pleases. Your camp loves to mischaracterize God as someone who controls all aspects of everything, or at the very least should always prevent anything bad from happening.

I think the story of flooding the world to kill everyone because of sinning makes more sense to me. Maybe faith means throwing logic out the window. Maybe David Koresh was sent by God to forgive our sins as well? Its very possible.

So what do you do when logic can't explain a phenomenon, deny that the phenomenon happened/exists?
 

MrFedEx

Engorged Member
Oh thanks for clearing things up. The person who sets the rules, who could just forgive these sinners without more killing, decided to send down his son, let him cure the sick, spread the word of love and peace, only to be slaughtered alive for the sins of mankind. Makes sense, especially when mankind hasn't stopped sinning. I think the story of flooding the world to kill everyone because of sinning makes more sense to me. Maybe faith means throwing logic out the window. Maybe David Koresh was sent by God to forgive our sins as well? Its very possible.

Exactly. Why all of the games? My take is that there is a "reason" for everything, some explanation that satisfies those who don't really think it through. I thought Route 66 gave a great explanation of his faith that I respect as his viewpoint, but as DTP said, where is the logic in all of it? Just stop banging your neighbor's wife, taking the Lord's name in vain etc.....why don't you learn your lesson and stop sinning?
 

TUT

Well-Known Member
There are some things that science and proof can't accomplish. Like I said, the universe is infinite, yet infinitely expanding with no end in sight, and humans are arrogant enough to be dismissive of a higher power? LOL

Free will, which is also divinely written. My guess is science would have zero problem accepting God if it could be proven, they aren't for or against during the discovery phase, just trying to clearly understand the universe set in front of them. If they did prove it, they'd be the most staunch supporters one can find.

I believe in Cool God, yes they did huge things, but they've also have gone on to other things. Doesn't judge, carry a infinitely detailed notebook on every living being to then ultimately hang over heads. Nah, they were in a position to create, they did, now go enjoy and rock on. Why this doesn't work for a human based religion is, it's simple, it's non-threatening, non-fearing and hard to monetize. Why do I think what I think? Because that is how I would do it if I had such powers and were untouchable, there is no threat, thus no fear need be given, thus Cool. No reason to create man flawed, to later blame them for being flawed and then paying an eternal price for being flawed, why waste a life cycle coming to a foregone conclusion? To me that is spiteful, vengeful, jealous man words, "in the end you'll get yours!", petty.
 
Last edited:

TUT

Well-Known Member
So what do you do when logic can't explain a phenomenon, deny that the phenomenon happened/exists?

Not at all. Could possibly be various answers here, but I think you are taking the science slant. Science will always have things in front of it that it cannot explain, there are millions each day chipping away for better understanding of 1000's of topics not fully understood. This is one of man's strengths, tenacity and curiosity. We were born with capacity and no knowledge, so we seek it.

It doesn't mean if science can't explain it, it has to be divine. I think Weather is one such subject, used to be divine as all can be, a way to show vengeance or bearing of gifts to good or bad village karma, that is all they could figure. We know now that isn't the case, we can see this due to science and technology. Many barriers have come down because of gained perspective and that is a non-stop phenomenon. They haven't found God yet scientifically, maybe someday they will.
 

Route 66

Slapped Upside-da-Head Member
I thought Route 66 gave a great explanation of his faith that I respect as his viewpoint, but as DTP said, where is the logic in all of it? Just stop banging your neighbor's wife, taking the Lord's name in vain etc.....why don't you learn your lesson and stop sinning?
I hear ya, MFE. I've asked those same questions so many times myself.

It's true the world is full of tragedy. So much that it seems only normal that any prudent-thinking individual would question "could there really be a God?" Look at Sandy Hook for example. Incidents like that cause many to shake their fist at the sky and curse such a god.

But there's a lot of beautiful and amazing things in the world as well. I like to use as one example the human eye. No man can re-create the eye. It is a remarkable device far more complex than the most modern of cameras. Yet eyes have been around for how long now? - thousands of years at least.

It's just impossible for me to fathom that something so wondrous could have been created out of some chance cosmic collision between a dirty snowball and a rock (or whatever scenario) Yet so many want to think that that's more plausible an explanation than the existence of God.

I have to live for now in the faith that one day all will be revealed. The Bible says man born of woman is of few days and full of trouble. He springs up like a flower and withers away. Like a fleeting shadow, he does not endure. Each man's life is but a breath - a mist that appears for a moment and then vanishes.

So I have to remind myself (daily) that although my personal difficulties, all my aches and pains and family dramas and work woes and what-have-you...in the context of eternity (which is one heck of a long time) this little 80 or 90 year stint or however many years God wills me to stumble around on this rock, is truly nothing at all.

To go back to my Sandy Hook reference. I believe those children who experienced such unbelievable terror on that day, went straight into the arms of God, and in an instant felt that they had just returned Home.....because they had - infintesimally greater than their earthly one.

But that's just my faith, and I hope I'm not coming across as trying to jam religion down anyone's throat...Not attempting to put anyone's beliefs (or lack there of) down, or tell anyone else that they're right or wrong, just hoping to get my perspective across without coming across as "preachy". I had many many people try to preach "the word" to me and I resisted with all the very same arguments I've read here. It wasn't until I finally "surrendered" that I was able to come to the foot of the cross and actually get it.
 
P

prodriver

Guest
Route 66 I thought you said you wasn't any good at this? Again well said, on point.
 

MrFedEx

Engorged Member
I hear ya, MFE. I've asked those same questions so many times myself.

It's true the world is full of tragedy. So much that it seems only normal that any prudent-thinking individual would question "could there really be a God?" Look at Sandy Hook for example. Incidents like that cause many to shake their fist at the sky and curse such a god.

But there's a lot of beautiful and amazing things in the world as well. I like to use as one example the human eye. No man can re-create the eye. It is a remarkable device far more complex than the most modern of cameras. Yet eyes have been around for how long now? - thousands of years at least.

It's just impossible for me to fathom that something so wondrous could have been created out of some chance cosmic collision between a dirty snowball and a rock (or whatever scenario) Yet so many want to think that that's more plausible an explanation than the existence of God.

I have to live for now in the faith that one day all will be revealed. The Bible says man born of woman is of few days and full of trouble. He springs up like a flower and withers away. Like a fleeting shadow, he does not endure. Each man's life is but a breath - a mist that appears for a moment and then vanishes.

So I have to remind myself (daily) that although my personal difficulties, all my aches and pains and family dramas and work woes and what-have-you...in the context of eternity (which is one heck of a long time) this little 80 or 90 year stint or however many years God wills me to stumble around on this rock, is truly nothing at all.

To go back to my Sandy Hook reference. I believe those children who experienced such unbelievable terror on that day, went straight into the arms of God, and in an instant felt that they had just returned Home.....because they had - infintesimally greater than their earthly one.

But that's just my faith, and I hope I'm not coming across as trying to jam religion down anyone's throat...Not attempting to put anyone's beliefs (or lack there of) down, or tell anyone else that they're right or wrong, just hoping to get my perspective across without coming across as "preachy". I had many many people try to preach "the word" to me and I resisted with all the very same arguments I've read here. It wasn't until I finally "surrendered" that I was able to come to the foot of the cross and actually get it.

I wish more Christians were like you...well said.
 

TUT

Well-Known Member
But there's a lot of beautiful and amazing things in the world as well. I like to use as one example the human eye. No man can re-create the eye. It is a remarkable device far more complex than the most modern of cameras. Yet eyes have been around for how long now? - thousands of years at least.

It's just impossible for me to fathom that something so wondrous could have been created out of some chance cosmic collision between a dirty snowball and a rock (or whatever scenario) Yet so many want to think that that's more plausible an explanation than the existence of God.

To me it's not. However how to make eyes? That is well beyond me, doesn't necessarily make it divine, man is doing some amazing things these days, just because I cannot do it, doesn't mean it isn't possible or divine.

Life is basically infinite, so with an infinite possibilities, the hard to imagine becomes probable. This doesn't mean they weren't created by God, but perhaps it's just natures way. But it could have been made by a creator, does that make them God? Does a creator then have to be all knowing and judging? Not necessarily but it seems religion points us to one that is on both accounts, so man can control man?
 
Last edited:

59 Dano

I just want to make friends!
Not at all. Could possibly be various answers here, but I think you are taking the science slant. Science will always have things in front of it that it cannot explain, there are millions each day chipping away for better understanding of 1000's of topics not fully understood. This is one of man's strengths, tenacity and curiosity. We were born with capacity and no knowledge, so we seek it.

I was thinking along the lines of people who have be spoken to by God. In most cases it's an indescribable 'something' that comes over them and leads them to an answer. The accounts of people who have experienced those things are all very similar. Ditto for those who had an experience when they were near death.
 

59 Dano

I just want to make friends!
Exactly. Why all of the games? My take is that there is a "reason" for everything, some explanation that satisfies those who don't really think it through. I thought Route 66 gave a great explanation of his faith that I respect as his viewpoint, but as DTP said, where is the logic in all of it? Just stop banging your neighbor's wife, taking the Lord's name in vain etc.....why don't you learn your lesson and stop sinning?

If you want to beat the drum of logic, where is the logic in being faithful to your spouse if you are a non-believer? Does it make sense to deny yourself the pleasure when you don't believe in the supreme being that established what is right and wrong? At the end of the day there is no price to pay for sins (as defined by Christians) if you are a non-believer.
 

TUT

Well-Known Member
If you want to beat the drum of logic, where is the logic in being faithful to your spouse if you are a non-believer? Does it make sense to deny yourself the pleasure when you don't believe in the supreme being that established what is right and wrong? At the end of the day there is no price to pay for sins (as defined by Christians) if you are a non-believer.

I think this is the argument of "if you are a non-beleiver you can't have morals". That there is no reason for them to choose right from wrong, that we all only keep this all together because of fear of punishment in the afterlife. The idea of the first statement is wrong and is now an Atheists cornerstone they now use, "Yes we can have morals and not believe in God." I find that totally plausible to be able to do both. Because of free will, "Do onto others" can be divine or it could just be good wisdom. From there a code of ethics can be built, believing in God or not doesn't matter. Intelligence can see that a society can be better served well with a sound moral compass. I like peace, I do not like chaos, peace is possible with morals, chaos would ensue without morals.

Now some non-believers may in fact do what you say, that is undeniable, but that doesn't mean each individual, religious or not cannot choose a socially acceptable moral path. That is always an individuals choice and it doesn't have to be centered around belief in God. More of a centering around of using your intelligence for good.

You mention at the EOD there is no price to pay for non-believers in their line of thinking, true. But many churches now teach that Jesus has given sinners a "no price to pay" policy as well. Now is this all man made? The Old Testament was too fist pounding with no way out and people we're losing hope in themselves? And to keep the faith strong we needed Love and Forgiveness to be the cornerstone, hence Jesus? This way man could rebound from mistake after mistake?

So tell me, would you do a lot of "bad things" if you decided that religion wasn't for you? Or if God said, "You can do whatever you want, it has no affect on the afterlife.", that you would then do "bad things"? You know why I don't fathom to cheat on my wife, because I know how crushed she would be and how totally awful I'd feel about myself letting down the person I loved for so long that has put her total trust and love in me. All for what? Selfishness, shallowness and the total disregard of another adage "Grass isn't greener". Would you kill or steal if they weren't commandments? I wouldn't do either for many reasons beyond the big 10. Most of which are I don't want to be killed and stolen from which all goes back to "Do onto others", which is basically the prime building block of morals all centered around wisdom and intelligence.

Perhaps this is some of the arrogance perceived by people who have issues with Christians or religion. That they can't be good and proper without a threatening force. That they just can't be good because of who they are and/or that it might just make sense that in a crowded world, getting along might just have its benefits for all.
 

TUT

Well-Known Member
I was thinking along the lines of people who have be spoken to by God. In most cases it's an indescribable 'something' that comes over them and leads them to an answer. The accounts of people who have experienced those things are all very similar. Ditto for those who had an experience when they were near death.

I'm all for people can believe what they want, if there is no harm done to others. I'm very liberal in that. If there is harm in their beliefs, well we have man made laws for many of them.

Perhaps I'm also envious that people who have had life altering moments. If that is what it took to make them full, that means prior they were on the fence to some level, living in some doubt, like many. Faith wasn't totally enough, direct contact and interpretation was needed. Well in that case only a total fool would deny. Science would accept. Basically God would be with us, boom there they are. Like you or me standing square on mother earth.

But when you mention this privileged grouping, they have an advantage many haven't had. Expecting the "have-nots" to have the same strong beliefs doesn't seem like something one can bank on.

I hope we all find our peace and happiness. Believing, not believing or just confused all the same. Whatever it takes for us to get there, however we have to reason to find that place, do it!

Personally I've accepted this is too big for me, I'm trying to look at the big picture at an insanely low altitude, I don't need to be worrying on a cosmic level. By paper I am a confirmed Christian that goes by the name Casimir. If what I picture of Jesus, if he were to grace us today he'd have a large issue with a lot of Christian's and their lives, how they step on others to perch themselves up. I believe many Christians would find their actions so threatened that they couldn't accept a direct Jesus, as it means surrendering and apologizing for too much.

Then what about all the billions that have their own faith, pre-dating Jesus? Whom didn't have direct contact with Jesus 2000 years ago? They have to take in whole from another society their word as fact, their beliefs down the drain. Accept that their society wasn't worthy of God's presence when he was on Earth for a very limited time. That has to be hard for another society to accept, especially when everyone lies to everyone time and again. That is the problem with lying, how many times is ok, before we shouldn't be trusting anymore? Looking a big gov't now.
 
Last edited:
Top