The Russians Are Coming, The Russians Are Coming!

[vantexan]

This is a discussion of Donbass and Ukraine.

In that matter, Ukraine is the aggressor.

No, they aren't. Russian separatists backed by Putin started that war.

 

[wilberforce15]

You're always assuming the ones trying to hold the country together are the tyrants. Not necessarily. The Confederacy for example was clinging to slavery. There's really nothing more tyrannical than that. And they were willing to kill for it.

You think they were unjustified in trying to leave or had bad reasons. That's fine.

But they absolutely had the right to leave without being attacked.

A country doesn't lose the right to self-government by having self-government you don't like.

 

[Box Ox]

If their right to their land is recognized, there is no fight at all.
Ukraine refused to recognize taht right, and started the fight to make them submit.

Their land is part of Ukraine. So what are their causes?

 

[vantexan]

If their right to their land is recognized, there is no fight at all.
Ukraine refused to recognize taht right, and started the fight to make them submit.

There are Ukrainians living in the Donbas too. What about their rights?

 

[wilberforce15]

No, they aren't. Russian separatists backed by Putin started that war.

They declared themselves free. Then they were attacked. The order of operations matters.
Just like the so-called Civil War (we've never had a Civil War) is really the War of Northern Aggression.

Here is how it should have gone.
"We want to leave. "
"That sucks. Bye. "

The end.

 

[wilberforce15]

There are Ukrainians living in the Donbas too. What about their rights?

They have the right to live there under Donbass self-government if they like, or they can leave.

 

[Box Ox]

They have the right to live there under Donbass self-government if they like, or they can leave.

Why? Donbass isn't a country. That region is part of Ukraine.

So what are their causes for separation?

 

[wilberforce15]

Why? Donbass isn't a country. That region is part of Ukraine.

So what are their causes for separation?

It's only part of Ukraine because Ukraine points guns at them and claims ownership of it, lol.

 

[Box Ox]

It's only part of Ukraine because Ukraine points guns at them and claims ownership of it, lol.

Are the parts of the American southwest that used to belong to Mexico part of the US because the US points guns at them and claims ownership of it?

 

[wilberforce15]

Are the parts of the American southwest that used to belong to Mexico part of the US points guns at them and claims ownership of it?

Correct. The US should always allow any state to leave the union peacefully that desires to do so.

 

[wilberforce15]

A union created and maintained only by force is no union at all.

 

[Box Ox]

Correct. The US should always allow any state to leave the union peacefully that desires to do so.

A union created and maintained only by force is no union at all.

Our southwest states are only US states because they've got the guns of the US government pointed at them?

 

[wilberforce15]

Our southwest states are only US states because they've got the guns of the US government pointed at them?

No, they are states because they want to be part of us. They've expressed no desire to leave.

But if they expressed that desire, I say it would be our obligation not to force them to stay.

Same with Donbass. And New Mexico. And the South. And Quebec. And everybody.

 

[Box Ox]

No, they are states because they want to be part of us. They've expressed no desire to leave.

But if they expressed that desire, I say it would be our obligation not to force them to stay.

Same with Donbass. And New Mexico. And the South. And Quebec. And everybody.

You believe that armed insurrection and the killing of fellow citizens is legit if a group of people feels like doing their own thing. Got it.

 

[wilberforce15]

You believe that armed insurrection and the killing of fellow citizens is legit if a group of people feels like doing their own thing. Got it.

No, the South, and Donbass, and Quebec, and all of these separatist movements are not killing anyone until their right to self-government is denied.

This is the entire civil war:
Union: "Alright. You guys can go. We think you're wrong. But whatever. Bye." (the South then shoots exactly nobody)
Ukraine: "Alright. You guys can go. We think you're wrong. But whatever. Bye." (Donbass then shoots exactly nobody)

Etc. Etc. Etc.
The violence is caused by the authoritarianism and imperialism to deny self-government. If they recognize it, there is no war.

 

[Box Ox]

No, the South, and Donbass, and Quebec, and all of these separatist movements are not killing anyone until their right to self-government is denied.

This is the entire civil war:
Union: "Alright. You guys can go. We think you're wrong. But whatever. Bye." (the South then shoots exactly nobody)
Ukraine: "Alright. You guys can go. We think you're wrong. But whatever. Bye." (Donbass then shoots exactly nobody)

Etc. Etc. Etc.
The violence is caused by the authoritarianism and imperialism to deny self-government. If they recognize it, there is no war.

Countries would never work if that were how countries actually worked.

 

[wilberforce15]

Countries would never work if that's how countries actually worked.

Why don't you go crazy and not kill people for self-government for once and find out?

 

[vantexan]

You think they were unjustified in trying to leave or had bad reasons. That's fine.

But they absolutely had the right to leave without being attacked.

A country doesn't lose the right to self-government by having self-government you don't like.

So the first attacker is the bad guy? OK, the Confederacy fired on the Union first at Fort Sumter in Charleston, SC.

 

[wilberforce15]

So the first attacker is the bad guy? OK, the Confederacy fired on the Union first at Fort Sumter in Charleston, SC.

The act of war was the North's invasion of a declared, sovereign, independent republic.

Firing on the attacker was defense.

 

[Box Ox]

No, the South, and Donbass, and Quebec, and all of these separatist movements are not killing anyone until their right to self-government is denied.

This is the entire civil war:
Union: "Alright. You guys can go. We think you're wrong. But whatever. Bye." (the South then shoots exactly nobody)
Ukraine: "Alright. You guys can go. We think you're wrong. But whatever. Bye." (Donbass then shoots exactly nobody)

Etc. Etc. Etc.
The violence is caused by the authoritarianism and imperialism to deny self-government. If they recognize it, there is no war.

Countries would never work if that were how countries actually worked.

Why don't you go crazy and not kill people for self-government for once and find out?

What? LOL