Thanks Diesel. I've had others complain about my posts from their lenghts to the fact that many go more indepth on the subject and it is the depth that does cause the problem with the lenght. Vicious circle I guess. I just see many of these issues are not something that is so simple that a 30 sec. soundbite so to speak can say it all but that's me and others see it different and I respect that opinion. I had one poster here complain to me about my lenghty posts but then I realized one day that of my 2k plus posts here, this complainer had over 10k. I started to suggest that I was trying to catch up to that level but using an economy model but then I considered that this poster wasn't really interested in any factual info at the end of the day so I just let it go and enjoyed the humorous thoughts to myself. And besides, sometimes the lenght is more so about ruffling the feathers of some than it is about presenting any facts to the subject.
Some of these issues are very important and with that do require thought and consideration of the facts from all sides. There's no argument that 9/11 changed America and we do face a serious threat from within the Islamic world. I find it comical when some here advocate or suggest I'm anti war because I have a friend in Australia who is professional musician who follows Sufism which is best described in some way as the mystical side of Islam or in a way like Kabbalahism is the mystical side of Judaism. My friend is a pure pacifist by all rights but because of my support of our entering Afghanistan and my support of that continuing mission there, he accuses me of being a warmonger but in a goodhearted kinda way. I guess point of view depends on how you are viewed.
I knew the US had a history in Afghanistan from back in the 70's via covert operations supporting the Mujihadeen and even Osama bin Laden in an indirect way. As the Soviet occupation fell apart, the 2 rival factions left standing were the northern warloads who had been willing agents of the Soviet occupation and the mujihadeen who were now known by the name of the Taliban. The US gov't actually backed the Taliban and it was those efforts that helped them secure power. One of the reason for this support was the anti-poppy policy of the Taliban who our gov't felt would control the opium production of Afghanistan so much of the thinking was based on US drug policy and not so much what was in the best interest of the afghans. Saw article yesterday where poppy production for opium set a new record this year. This is also why the hues and crys to rid Iraq of Saddam because of human rights abuse reasons fall on deaf ears with me because the US can on a dime turn and then support a gov't neck deep in such violations as they backed the Taliban. We even supported Saddam in the 80's because of Iran and I always find it funny that we supported not only a Sunni gov't over a Shia gov't because the Shia IMO are the moderate thinkers when it comes to religious doctrine but the Baathist are a purely socialist political entity and once very friendly with the Soviets.
It is the Sunni from which Wahhabism comes that birthed Al Queda and all the 9/11 attackers were Sunni and the majority of them were from Saudia which is supposedly our friend. Ron Paul spoke very well of the consequences of our actions and some of this is prime examples of what Paul was talking about.
Early on I in some sense supported the war with Iraq but kinda on a different level. I felt it was in some sense our mess that we made but I also felt one of the reasons that Cheney and Rumy wanted to go in was to hide the fact, and I still believe this, that much of the pre 1991' wmd that Saddam had would also have a "made in America" stamp on it and the last thing these guys wanted was from the UN inspectors to find this stuff with our label and parade that before the world. Conspiratorial I know, grassy knoll stuff, but history is loaded with this type of intrigue so there you go. This sword had a double edge and at the time I did think one side was sharper than the other.
IMO gov't is a business and they will do whatever it takes to protect that business as has been shown over time, again IMO. But as time went on and I read more and more not from the anti war factions but rather I went and read from pro war, neo-conservative groups like American Enterprise Institute, Project for a New American Century or I even researched the 1996' report prepared by Richard Perle for Israeli Prime Minister Netanyahu called "A Clean Break:A New Strategy for Securing the Realm" which among other things promoted the idea of a new Middle East based on western values but also an elimination of the Iraq gov't via the US military along with other western powers. The ultimate goal was to secure the State if Israel and it's means of doing so crossed along many fronts. Now this is not some obscure document passed around some dark corridors but you can find it on the Israeli political group's website know as Institute for Advanced Strategic and Political Studies who commisioned Perle to create the report and here's the link.
https://web.archive.org/web/20060416082235/http://www.iasps.org/strat1.htm
I also went back and read a lot about the post WW1 international agreements that broke up the old Ottoman empire mostly to the control of the English and French and the lies and mess they themselves created that have finally manifested today into the Middle East problem and it was then as I learned more and more about the actual details, most from the policy makers themselves that my support for the Iraq adventure began to quickly turn to the point that our current course is wrong and we need a new direction. I am wholeheartedly and proudly anti-policy as it pretains to the current decisions of the policy makers in Washington. The military by the Constitution is barred from setting policy as this is left to the elected civilian officials and it is their decisions that I question and opposed. If in some people's minds that is anti-war then the problem is their's and not mine.
I've posted a ton of this stuff before here and even suggested to all that they go to these pro-war, neo conservative sites and read what is being said by these policy wonks who dictate and control federal policy. Col. Hunt at Fox News is by no means anti-war but he has publically been critical of Rumy and some of the decision processes going on and I've linked that as well just recently. I've also suggested learning about the situation after the fall of the Ottoman empire in this region and also learning about the Sunni's, the Shia and even the centuries old war they have fought against each other to this day. You also have to understand the impact of old Persian thought verses Saudia thought and oh yes this is a huge factor in all of this.
But I dare say it appears to me that no one or at best very few ever do. And I'm cool with that but when you won't research a subject that is of such vital importance to America and then do nothing but resort to childish name calling and one line soundbites heard yesterday on the latest talkshow of entertainers posing as deep thinkers whose job it is to make statements on the air that would prevoke people to call the show in order to create an entertainment value to make advertising dollars and thereby gain a good living, what does that really say about you? Very Lazy is one thought that comes to mind!
Diesel, if you and I sat down and shared what we thougth the federal gov't should look like, I'm pretty certain we'd walk away in strong disgreement. I'm an anti-federalist to the point that I advocate abolition of the Constitution and a return to the Articles of Confederation. Oh yeah, I know it's radical but so were men like Patrick Henry and Lysander Spooner who advocated the same if not something similar. Even Thomas Jefferson had his doubts about the Constitution but only supported after the Bill of Rights were added and even with some distrust. My guess if able to see today he'd have stood shoulder to shoulder with Henry. My guess is that you are not nearly that radical in belief and the vast amount of Americans are with you so the majority is clear. But for the moment we have Free speech so I'll exercise much to the wailing and gnashing of teeth of others including many here I'm sure.
I'm sure I'll get the catcalling for
writting "ANOTHER" thesis and that's fine but I just wanted to share "OH NO, SHARE IS A LIBERAL TERM!" with you more specifically where I was coming from in much of this. I've always enjoyed history as to my wife's hatred I aced almost without effort or study in school and have over the years had a keen interest in as I just enjoy the subject and learning from the successes and failures of others. If only I could have done that well in math!
You know, it's ironic that those here who support the current Iraq effort could find a lot more "meat for their sandwich" and make the discussion more interesting if they would take the time to read some of the neo-conservative websites that I mentioned. I guess they think their hero Fred Thompson gets all his info from the talkshows so it would appear they will continue to not do any legwork or effort so there you go! I guess it's that lazy factor again.
c ya around diesel
BTW: I also made sure I bumped up to the 10k character limit just so I piss em' off!