What Caused the Financial Meltdown?

tieguy

Banned
Attention Cheryl,

We need to hook up dear. It seems my defending of your policy is not enough and I'm grossly guilty of "failure to support." That said, I was thinking of what I could do to show my support and I've come up with a solution. Obviuosly lots of bling is called for, a week long adventure to the Spa as well but I was thinking a bit more hedonistic. Flowers but then coupled with males strippers who serve your every need might be perfect surrounded in an Egyptian/Nile motif. I mean, what's more fun than playing Cleopatra and slapping the cute, tight butts of buff men as they serve your every need!

I'll be working on my list this week so if you could drop me a note telling me what else you'd like and where to send it, I hope to make an amends for my failures of not giving you all the support that I should.
:wink2:

I'm sure it will be a list full of conspiracy and the concept of disagreeing with the norm for no other reason then to disagree with the norm.

Perhaps you could label it "my list that proves I'm so much smarter then everyone else"
 

UPS Lifer

Well-Known Member
Another cause is people's general human nature to spend beyond their means. What happened within the past 6-7 years is that because of the loosening of lending strings, the market had artificial demand. More people could now "afford" to buy the same amount of houses. Demand went up, supply stayed the same, and that drove house prices up.

People on the buying side didn't say, "Hey - I can now purchase a home well within my mean and get a 15-year-mortgage" but rather, "Wow, now I can qualify for a larger home with a 40-year-mortgage".

We are a nation that defines ourselves by image. The larger the home, the flashier the car ("You are what you drive"), the more stuff that we have. Twenty years ago, how many self-storage areas did we have in this country? Now we pay monthly fees to store stuff that we don't use. We park our Lexus SUV and BMW in our driveway so that we can store our $10 Wal-Mart bikes in the garage. We live in McMansions with 3000' sqft of living space, and still don't have enough room to store our stuff.

We tend as a nation to buy things that we don't need with money that we don't have to impress people we don't know.

mountaingoat,

I agree 1000% with your assessment. I reflect back at my own situation and even though I am surviving OK.... I am embarrassed at how I fit this pattern. I would be in a whole different situation had I not kept accumulating things.

Thank you for taking the time to point it out. I certainly hope that those folks who are moving that direction can re-assess where they are now before it is too late.
 

UPS Lifer

Well-Known Member
I had an opportunity to listen to Bill Clinton on the "View" today.

I was very impressed with him. He showed a very genuine quality of frankness and humility. He talked about the economy and that he has reflected on what he took place in his administration and repeal of the Glass-Steagall legislation. He felt that that may have had impact on this current problem.

He also believes that (and I agree) that the mortgages that are going into default need to be renegotiated between the lender and mortgagee to be made affordable. There are many, many folks who do not believe that people who got in over their head should be bailed out. I do not look at it the same way. We need to fix the foreclosures and stop the bleeding. Families should not wonder where they are going to sleep at night if they lose their house and the mortgage companies need to take responsibility to fix this along with a forceful hand from the Feds if necessary.

Clinton also said that he respects both candidates and is tired of the mud slinging on both sides. He said if it wasn't for McCain backing him on certain issue he would not have been able to accomplish key legislation.

Clinton also believes that America is going to vote BO into office. ( don't know if I buy that one) but his argument has foundation that is hard to refute.

Only time will tell on that one.

I was very impressed with him today.
 

moreluck

golden ticket member
Yeah, Bubba had his stuff together....he even mentioned that McCain has earned America's respect or something like that.
 
G

Give-Me-A-Break!

Guest
Here's a little insight into GW Bush's Home Ownership program.

What "Ownership Society"?
Bush's major economic idea goes bust.
By Daniel Gross
Posted Monday, Feb. 6, 2006, at 7:12 PM ET
It's never been a better time to own stocks in this country—in theory. With labor weak and management strong, corporations—and hence stockholders—have substantially increased their take of every dollar. Between the first quarter of 2001 and the fourth quarter of 2004, for example, corporate profits rose from 7.8 percent of the gross domestic product to 10.1 percent, according to the Center on Budget and Policy Priorities. In the third quarter of 2005, corporate profits amounted to about 10.3 percent of the GDP. Thanks to changes in the tax code enacted in 2003, stock dividends and capital gains are frequently taxed at lower rates than ordinary income. And all sorts of new vehicles—retirement plans, college savings programs—offer tax breaks for investing.

So, it ought to be glory days for President Bush, who has made the "Ownership Society" a theme of his presidency, and who views investing in securities as the solution to everything from Social Security's long-term insolvency to the health-care crisis. In his State of the Union speech, Bush touted Health Savings Accounts as a Band-Aid for the epidemic of underinsurance. Meanwhile, Bush administration officials and their affiliated propagandists continually rhapsodize on how cutting taxes on capital gains and dividends has encouraged people to invest like never before. "That America's ownership society is thriving can be seen in the burgeoning holdings of assets such as houses and securities," George Melloan wrote on the Wall Street Journal editorial page last week. "The president can claim, if he so wishes, that his first-term tax cuts fostered this expansion and broadening of national wealth."

As if. National wealth has hardly broadened in the Bush years. More significantly, the expansion of the ownership society has actually stalled during the Bush presidency. Except for the richest among us, Americans have not responded to Bush's exhortations and new tax incentives.

Stock ownership rose greatly in the 1980s and also in the 1990s, as the performance of markets stimulated the expansion of the investor class, which in turn spawned a massive industry devoted to encouraging individuals to invest—discount brokerages, mutual-funds marketing, CNBC. The Investment Company Institute's fact book notes that the percentage of households owning mutual funds rose from 5.7 percent in 1980 to 24.4 percent in 1988. Between 1992 and 2000, the accursed Clinton years—despite higher taxes on capital gains and dividends than exist now—the percentage of households owning mutual funds doubled, from 24.4 to 49 percent. But 2002, the year before the Bush tax cuts were enacted, represented the peak, and by 2004, the percentage of households owning mutual funds fell to 48 percent.

Other numbers tell the same story. Americans own less of the assets Bush wants them to. According to the Securities Industry Association's most recent Equity Ownership in America study (see Page 7) the percentage of Americans owning equities—either through mutual funds or as individual stocks—rose from 36.7 percent to 47.9 percent between 1992 and 1999, a 30 percent increase. But between 2002 and 2005, the percentage of households owning equities nudged upward from 49.5 percent to 50.3 percent, an increase of 1.6 percent. Next, look at the data on owners of individual stocks outside retirement plans, where the capital gains and dividends tax cuts makes the difference. (You don't pay taxes on the dividends and capital gains earned by stocks in your 401(k) plan.) The percentage of households holding stock outside employer-sponsored retirement plans fell from 21.4 percent in 1999 to 19.7 percent in 2002 and stood at 20.6 in 2005.

Why is Bush's strategy stalled? I'd propose a few reasons:

1) Long Muscle Memory. It's been five years since the market peaked. Though the S&P 500 has notched up three years in a row, Americans remain scarred by the bad end of the '90s boom. (The mere mention of the words Dow 36,000, a copy of which is available on Amazon.com for 11 cents, can cause a room to empty.) It took nearly two generations for investors to get over the debacle of 1929. Psychological recovery from the '90s bubble is going to take time.

2) Empty Pockets. It's hard to own things when your income falls every year. And as the Census Bureau notes (see the chart on Page 3) real median household income has slumped continually since 2000. Meanwhile, the cost of living is rising, thanks to returning inflation—especially in necessities like energy, housing, and health care.

3) Home Sweet Home. Stocks, the trendy investment of the 1990s, have been replaced by housing. Unlike stocks, homes can be purchased by strapped individuals with borrowed money. Nobody will lend you $500,000 to buy stocks with no money down. But assuming you have a pulse and are willing to pay some interest, there are probably 40 lenders waiting to write you a check for a mortgage on the same terms. But even here, the pace of growth in ownership has slowed from the pace of the 1990s. According to the Census (see Table 4), while the home-ownership rate rose from 64.4 percent in 1992 to 67.5 percent in 2000, it has bumped up only 1.5 percentage points in the last five years, to 69 percent in 2005.

Is it possible that we've reached the upper limits of the ownership society? That the percentage of the population that is financially and temperamentally suited to holding mutual funds and stocks is capped at about 50 percent of households? That's hard to believe, especially when low-cost, democratic outfits like Vanguard and TIAA-CREF allow people to start investing with tiny sums. No. It's not that we can't afford to own anymore. It's that we have been presented with two competing economic models by the president. The ownership society requires thrift and patience. The consumer society, by contrast, requires that we spend like drunken sailors to keep the GDP boosted. Bush says he wants us to be frugal owners, but he really needs us to be profligate consumers. And face it, the consumer society is more fun. Given the choice between buying a pair of shoes and a share of stock, what would you choose?
 

av8torntn

Well-Known Member
In 2004 home ownership reached 69% a new record. I cannot help but wonder who was the President that year. This from the US census bureau. You or someone had posted earlier that this was the goal of the Bush presidency. Here is an interesting table.
 

tieguy

Banned
Here's a little insight into GW Bush's Home Ownership program.

What "Ownership Society"?
Bush's major economic idea goes bust.
By Daniel Gross
Posted Monday, Feb. 6, 2006, at 7:12 PM ET
It's never been a better time to own stocks in this country—in theory. With labor weak and management strong, corporations—and hence stockholders—have substantially increased their take of every dollar. Between the first quarter of 2001 and the fourth quarter of 2004, for example, corporate profits rose from 7.8 percent of the gross domestic product to 10.1 percent, according to the Center on Budget and Policy Priorities. In the third quarter of 2005, corporate profits amounted to about 10.3 percent of the GDP. Thanks to changes in the tax code enacted in 2003, stock dividends and capital gains are frequently taxed at lower rates than ordinary income. And all sorts of new vehicles—retirement plans, college savings programs—offer tax breaks for investing.

So, it ought to be glory days for President Bush, who has made the "Ownership Society" a theme of his presidency, and who views investing in securities as the solution to everything from Social Security's long-term insolvency to the health-care crisis. In his State of the Union speech, Bush touted Health Savings Accounts as a Band-Aid for the epidemic of underinsurance. Meanwhile, Bush administration officials and their affiliated propagandists continually rhapsodize on how cutting taxes on capital gains and dividends has encouraged people to invest like never before. "That America's ownership society is thriving can be seen in the burgeoning holdings of assets such as houses and securities," George Melloan wrote on the Wall Street Journal editorial page last week. "The president can claim, if he so wishes, that his first-term tax cuts fostered this expansion and broadening of national wealth."

As if. National wealth has hardly broadened in the Bush years. More significantly, the expansion of the ownership society has actually stalled during the Bush presidency. Except for the richest among us, Americans have not responded to Bush's exhortations and new tax incentives.

Stock ownership rose greatly in the 1980s and also in the 1990s, as the performance of markets stimulated the expansion of the investor class, which in turn spawned a massive industry devoted to encouraging individuals to invest—discount brokerages, mutual-funds marketing, CNBC. The Investment Company Institute's fact book notes that the percentage of households owning mutual funds rose from 5.7 percent in 1980 to 24.4 percent in 1988. Between 1992 and 2000, the accursed Clinton years—despite higher taxes on capital gains and dividends than exist now—the percentage of households owning mutual funds doubled, from 24.4 to 49 percent. But 2002, the year before the Bush tax cuts were enacted, represented the peak, and by 2004, the percentage of households owning mutual funds fell to 48 percent.

Other numbers tell the same story. Americans own less of the assets Bush wants them to. According to the Securities Industry Association's most recent Equity Ownership in America study (see Page 7) the percentage of Americans owning equities—either through mutual funds or as individual stocks—rose from 36.7 percent to 47.9 percent between 1992 and 1999, a 30 percent increase. But between 2002 and 2005, the percentage of households owning equities nudged upward from 49.5 percent to 50.3 percent, an increase of 1.6 percent. Next, look at the data on owners of individual stocks outside retirement plans, where the capital gains and dividends tax cuts makes the difference. (You don't pay taxes on the dividends and capital gains earned by stocks in your 401(k) plan.) The percentage of households holding stock outside employer-sponsored retirement plans fell from 21.4 percent in 1999 to 19.7 percent in 2002 and stood at 20.6 in 2005.

Why is Bush's strategy stalled? I'd propose a few reasons:

1) Long Muscle Memory. It's been five years since the market peaked. Though the S&P 500 has notched up three years in a row, Americans remain scarred by the bad end of the '90s boom. (The mere mention of the words Dow 36,000, a copy of which is available on Amazon.com for 11 cents, can cause a room to empty.) It took nearly two generations for investors to get over the debacle of 1929. Psychological recovery from the '90s bubble is going to take time.

2) Empty Pockets. It's hard to own things when your income falls every year. And as the Census Bureau notes (see the chart on Page 3) real median household income has slumped continually since 2000. Meanwhile, the cost of living is rising, thanks to returning inflation—especially in necessities like energy, housing, and health care.

3) Home Sweet Home. Stocks, the trendy investment of the 1990s, have been replaced by housing. Unlike stocks, homes can be purchased by strapped individuals with borrowed money. Nobody will lend you $500,000 to buy stocks with no money down. But assuming you have a pulse and are willing to pay some interest, there are probably 40 lenders waiting to write you a check for a mortgage on the same terms. But even here, the pace of growth in ownership has slowed from the pace of the 1990s. According to the Census (see Table 4), while the home-ownership rate rose from 64.4 percent in 1992 to 67.5 percent in 2000, it has bumped up only 1.5 percentage points in the last five years, to 69 percent in 2005.

Is it possible that we've reached the upper limits of the ownership society? That the percentage of the population that is financially and temperamentally suited to holding mutual funds and stocks is capped at about 50 percent of households? That's hard to believe, especially when low-cost, democratic outfits like Vanguard and TIAA-CREF allow people to start investing with tiny sums. No. It's not that we can't afford to own anymore. It's that we have been presented with two competing economic models by the president. The ownership society requires thrift and patience. The consumer society, by contrast, requires that we spend like drunken sailors to keep the GDP boosted. Bush says he wants us to be frugal owners, but he really needs us to be profligate consumers. And face it, the consumer society is more fun. Given the choice between buying a pair of shoes and a share of stock, what would you choose?

there's that smell again.:peaceful:
 

JustTired

free at last.......
I think everyone should support Cheryls hard work here by joining the site. Do you?

OK....so you're "pro-forum" and I'm "pro-choice".

Some people are not "joiners". That doesn't make their opinions any less valid. And if you believe that it does, then you are one of the narrowminded people that would veto a bill just because it wasn't your idea. Not mentioning any names here. Use your imagination!:wink2:
 

tieguy

Banned
OK....so you're "pro-forum" and I'm "pro-choice".

Some people are not "joiners". That doesn't make their opinions any less valid. And if you believe that it does, then you are one of the narrowminded people that would veto a bill just because it wasn't your idea. Not mentioning any names here. Use your imagination!:wink2:

No problem. I'll put you down as supporting anonymous slime balls and against supporting cheryls hardwork. thanks for playing.

 

av8torntn

Well-Known Member
Obviously before the mortgage meltdown. What is the percentage today?

I'm not sure. Can you look it up and tell me. I think you may find it at somewhere around 68%. To me that is an incredibly high number. I read somewhere that the sub prime meltdown you people are crying about is affecting somewhere around 1% of the households.
 

tieguy

Banned
I'm not sure. Can you look it up and tell me. I think you may find it at somewhere around 68%. To me that is an incredibly high number. I read somewhere that the sub prime meltdown you people are crying about is affecting somewhere around 1% of the households.


ROFLMAO.
 

wkmac

Well-Known Member
wkmac, what is your take on the govt mortgaging our kids' (and their kids') future to bail out lenders to the tune of 1/2 trillion dollars?

Upstate,

I'm betting money you noticed oil prices yesterday as well as stock prices from the events over the weekend coupled with the dollar on world markets. That potential $700 bil plus elephant in the room seems to have jacked up inflation fears but today some moderation as profit taking in oil and stocks a little bump up as some investors are seeing some under priced buys.

My point is that the large economic market is speaking and that word is inflation. The potential for this end result in all this action seems very real at the moment and the question we need to ask is what will the economic blowback down the road be from all this. This morning the so-called experts were saying this bailout would be an extra $2500 in debt to all Americans but 2 things they are not saying.

1) They are not including the interest over the longhaul on that $2500
2) By increasing the debt further, we place pressure on our credit rating and if that drops, we play a higher interest rate placing even more burden on paying down the debt over the longhaul.

The speed at which Congress is trying to act is also very concerning because it's way to easy for the Fox to slip inside the henhouse as all the chickens rush for the door. I also find it of interest that Goldman-Sachs will change it's own status in order to position itself at the federal give-away trough and clear it's own books.

Congress wants fast action in order to go home and face the voter in the re-election process. The fear isn't that Wall Street will collapse but rather the people will blame the current crop of elected leaders and we'd have a "throw the bums out" kind of reaction. That I think is what make Chuckie Schumer "gulp" and now it's about getting out a bandaid that sends everyone a check and roll the problem downhill but protects them in the current election cycle.

Now to a much broader point to everyone,

We centralized economic power and credit creation in America in 1913' with the Federal Reserve. 1930's, some 20 years later, we had economic chaos in the depression and massive gov't expansion as a result. 1971' we had the collapse of Bretton Wood and the last of gold backing stripped from the dollar and then the 70's was a decade of economic chaos from wage and price freeze to inflation to soaring interest rates backed again by gov't growth. Now 30 years later we find ourselves again in the middle of economic chaos and even further gov't expansion to the point that some say the mortgage industry has now been nationalized. Maybe a bit hyperbole at the moment but looking downstream and understanding the dynamics of gov't, it's not all hyperbole.

While we all point political fingers and political blame at one another, I think it's time we do something that in almost 100 years has not been done before and that is to fully and completely audit the Federal Reserve Bank with full disclosure to the American taxpayer. The Federal Reseve is the ultimate force that sets economic policy through credit expansion and contraction and the regulator of money supply in the economy. The cycle is now IMO a proven cycle in that every 20 to 30 years we have a economic crisis that demands draconian measures and in all of this the Wall Street banker crowd walks away fatter and happier than what was before not to mention the consolidation towards monopoly with fewer and fewer banking choices in the market place.

The 80's saw the killing of the S&L industry and what was the choice of first resort for communties as the place to save and then take that local savings and invest locally as capital for loans. What effect on the saving rate and how we save did this have? What will the current events have longterm and how will the death of investment brokerage houses effect future events as they relate to savings and investment? Is this going to be a positive or a negative or even neither? Bailout and consolidation do have longterm ramifications IMO.

We've all gotten ourselves where we are today and this situation has built over a century, not over the last 8 years or the last 16 for that matter. Bush doesn't have exclusive blame and neither does Clinton, Reagan, Carter, Nixon, etc. Everyone shares equally so stop the blame game BS. As you might happen to see your Congressperson or Senator over the next several weeks before the election, just remember 3 words,

"Audit the Fed!"

IMO, this is the common denominator through all of this and the best place to start.

JMHO.
 

UPS Lifer

Well-Known Member
I'm not sure. Can you look it up and tell me. I think you may find it at somewhere around 68%. To me that is an incredibly high number. I read somewhere that the sub prime meltdown you people are crying about is affecting somewhere around 1% of the households.

Sub-prime and greed by the derivative mortgage lenders and other funds have affected every homeowner and every taxpayer in the US.

So JMHO but it is affecting 100% of the households!
 

wkmac

Well-Known Member

Good link AV.

Something caught my eye at the link.

"If a loose monetary policy and rapid asset price inflation were the route to economic prosperity, Argentina would be the richest country in the world by now."

From a humorous thought, the point is true but the phrase "rapid asset price inflation" is what caught my attention but it was because I had just read this:

Something in Michael Hudson's 22 September missive on the financial rescue plan bailout Wall Street welfare scheme suggested to me that maybe what Paulson et al really want is inflation:
... For now the major question is just how the banks, insurance companies and financial conglomerates are to raise the money to pay off this bailout.
The last time the government let banks earn their way out of negative equity was in 1980. Interest rates to bank customers topped 20 percent, driving down prices for real estate, stocks and bonds so low that the leading U.S. banks saw their net worth wiped out. Their debts to depositors and bondholders exceeded the collateral they held in their reserves to back these deposit obligations. But as soon as Ronald Reagan led the Republicans back into office, the Federal Reserve began to flood the economy with free credit, driving down the interest rates that banks had to pay. They were allowed to act as a monopoly and keep credit-card interest rates high, at 20 percent, and above 30 percent with penalties, thanks to the fact that America’s high post-Vietnam interest rates led state after state to repeal anti-usury laws to keep credit flowing.
So the banks did “earn their way out of debt.” But if you were a taxpayer who needed to use a credit card, you paid through the nose. The banks earned their way out of debt at your expense. And by the way, if you really did pay an income tax, you probably did not own commercial real estate or significant financial assets. The Internal Revenue Service made commercial real estate and a large swath of finance (at least for the wealthiest investors) income-tax free by generating tax credits that could be applied against income across the board. The capital-gains tax was lowered to a fraction of the income tax, leading investors to pay out whatever income their investments generated as interest on loans to buy property they expected to sell at a markup. And with Alan Greenspan appointed the head the Federal Reserve Board in 1987, the age of asset-price inflation had arrived.
What's the best way to "earn your way out of debt?" Inflation. Not cute inflation, of 6% or 8% or even 10% per year, but hyperinflation, which annihilates debt. But it may be why Paulson wants dictatorial power -- unaccountable and unreviewable powers, the man holding the economic axe in the fasces -- over the economy. It may be that, contra a previous post of mine, that they have considered the inflationary effects of adding a trillion in new debt and currency to the US economy, and that those effects are exactly what they want.
It would be a neat trick, borrowing many hundreds of billions in your own currency to destroy the value of that currency so you don't have to pay it back, or that it would be much easier to pay it back. I'm not saying that's what's happening -- I do not know for sure, and the Bush people have never struck me as this smart -- but it might be. To work, those doing the borrowing and wrecking need a safe haven, such a gold or other commodities, in order to save their wealth while destroying everyone else's.

http://www.lewrockwell.com/blog/lewrw/archives/023014.html

BTW: Here's a response to the above blog post:
http://www.lewrockwell.com/blog/lewrw/archives/023019.html

If at some point a massive bailout in the form that injects huge sums of money into the money supply, one has to think the pressures of rapid asset price inflation or what some might call hyperinflation could come into play. What that would do to the ratio of debt to GDP or even just in sheer size shrinking the ratio of the debt period does IMO give one cause to think. Also another way to solve the impact of the size of social security and medicare except both are tired to the inflation rate. So much for all conspiracies.:happy-very:

Being a free market guy, if I were out to destroy the concepts of free markets and limited gov't without invoking the name of Marx and Lenin, I'd say this seems to me to be the most effective way to do it. Why storm the capital with a peasant army to overthrow the gov't and have to clean up all the mess and damage afterwards when you can cause the storming of the voter which in the end is more effective cause they'll think they are getting exactly what they want. The best part is the pollet bureau and the central committee get to come out looking like real heros and the party ministers get to line their own pockets along with their friends in crime.

:wink2:
 
G

Give-Me-A-Break!

Guest
Well, well well...Looks like McCains people have some dirty little secrets that just got revealed!!

By PETE YOST, Associated Press Writer
Tue Sep 23, 11:03 PM ET



WASHINGTON - The lobbying firm of John McCain's campaign manager was paid $15,000 a month for several years until last month by one of two housing companies taken over by the federal government, a person familiar with the financial arrangement said Tuesday night.

That money from Freddie Mac to the firm of Rick Davis was on top of more than $30,000 a month that went directly to Davis for five years starting in 2000.

The $30,000 a month came from both Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae, the other housing entity now under government control because of the crisis in the financial markets.

All the payments were first reported by The New York Times, which posted a story on its Web site Tuesday night revealing the $15,000 a month to the firm of Davis Manafort. The newspaper quoted two people with knowledge of the arrangement.

In response to the disclosure, McCain's presidential campaign issued a statement saying Davis left the firm and stopped taking a salary in 2006.

A person familiar with the contract says the $15,000-a-month in payments from Freddie Mac to Davis's firm started around the end of 2005 and continued until the last month or so. The person spoke on condition of anonymity.

The connection between Davis and the housing giants that figure so centrally in the global financial crisis emerged after the McCain campaign unleashed a sharp attack on Democratic rival Barack Obama.

McCain has tied Obama to Fannie and Freddie's troubles and has called on Jim Johnson and Franklin Raines — both Obama supporters and former Fannie Mae executives — to return million-dollar "golden parachute" payments they received from the corporation after leaving. Obama had chosen Johnson to run his vice presidential search committee, but Johnson stepped down after McCain and other Republicans began criticizing his home mortgage deals.

McCain's campaign recently released a television ad that says Raines is among those advising Obama on housing policy.

Obama's campaign released a statement from Raines, who says he is not an Obama adviser.
 

wkmac

Well-Known Member
LMAO!!!!!!!

Anon proves the truism once again that this election will come down to voting for lesser of the 2 evils.

I love it!!!!!!!!!!!!
:rofl:

On a serious note, FBI is now looking into acts of fraud not only at Freddie and Fannie but also Lehman and AIG. Will be interesting to see what they dig up. I still say audit the fed and follow the trail from there.
 
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