what would you do

[pickup]

As president, he needs to try to be politically correct in what he says. Not accurate.

That being said, I still dont understand the big deal about putting a label on yourself that makes you stand out and be different, but then when people point out that fact, its racism? The very fact that he spoke about African Americans in particular says that he wants this to be an issue for many years.

I say get over it. Move on. What is it that you want to accomplish by being different, but yet the same. I dont get it.

I view everyone that is a citizen as an American. Why do you have to feel like you need to separate yourself, but then demand to be included?

I find it interesting that when we take the question of race off the application form, who is it that raises hell?

So why do the African Americans feel like they need to keep the race card alive?



d

Okay, Daniel, I hear what you are saying.

 

[dannyboy]

Pickup

Let me ask you a personal question, one that I am really interested in your point of view.

Without a doubt, a white man calling an "African American" person the "n" word would be considered a racist, we can all agree? It would be morally and socially wrong.

So the other day I was listening to several guys that were trash talking to each other, and the "n" word was flying around about every 15 seconds or more. Much like several shows on TV over the last few weeks that I happened to see. All of the participants in all these encounters were "African American".

So why is it that one race can say a word and there not be anything wrong with it, but yet another race can say the same word and be dragged to jail, fired from his job etc? It would be considered a hate crime?

BTW, there are a lot of dark skinned Americans that are from many other countries other than Africa. So are they also "African Americans"?
d

 

[dilligaf]

Belle is right. What did anyone expect. True (the op) or not it is a 'hot' button. And the reactions will be as varied as the number of poeple that respond.

I hate prejudice. But because I say a black is a black or a mexican is a mexican, does not mean I am being prejudice. In my world, it is nothing more or nothing less than ethnicity.

Steven, this has not gotten out of hand. Not yet. There have been any number of threads that have been way worse than this one. PS It may not be illegal to be a racist, but is immoral. And don't forget the title of this thread. Yes, City did ask what we would do. Does this not go hand in hand with telling him what to do? Theoretically speaking.

Daniel, we each (or most of us anyway) have our own personal issues with prejudice. The Holocaust was an extremely violent time and I, for one, thank you for reminding me of that.

Helen, you are right about the openness of the slur. If the story is true (thank you Daniel for pointing this out) then I agree that it is not the first time and until someone says something, it will not be the last time.

 

[Cementups]

BTW, there are a lot of dark skinned Americans that are from many other countries other than Africa. So are they also "African Americans"?

I've always wondered if a white person from South Africa can refer to themselves as African-Americans. Technically speaking they are African Americans and could be treated as "other" on any sort of application or survey of any sort.

 

[dannyboy]

City

LEmme tell you two situations that race came up at work here.

Years ago, I was on a route that included a stop called the Ski Haus. Everything was fine and dandy.

Then Dennis moved up from an inside job to take over my run. First day on his own delivering the Ski Haus they called in a complaint. Very obvious that it was BS. Next time, again called in a complaint. And again and again.

After about a week, he had a vacation scheduled, so I ran the route again. They were so glad to see me. Finally had a white driver again. I could not believe what I was hearing. So I played along to see where it would go. They told me that they never wanted Dennis to ever deliver to them again. No, nothing he did wrong, but that he was black, and they did not want him in their shop again.

I recommended that they call the corp number and make that request, as I did not have the authority to comply.

Bottom line they did call. They showed UPS how racist they were.

WE drivers all got together and decided that we would all not set foot into their store either. IF they wanted their stuff, they would have to come out to the package car and get it. After a couple of weeks of sending their packages back, they got the idea that we were serious, and had the blessings of management.

The next year they went out of business and moved back up north.

Second time was when they changed Dennis's route to include a residential section that had a self proclaimed "grand wizard" of the KKK on it. Really strange type. Hell, I always got the shivers delivering the stop, as he had barbed wire all around his house, always had the shades pulled.

We had some different management at that time that would not listen to us, and that we were truly concerned about Dennis delivering that stop, and many nights after dark. IT took a while, but they finally relented and gave him another area of town.

Of all the drivers that I worked with over the years, Dennis was always a good friend. He knew I had his back, and he had mine more than once as well.

When I see Dennis, I see a hard working slender 6'2"ish man with a son that he dearly loves and a wife not so much. I see a man that works his ass off just like the rest of us, dealing with the stresses of life the best he can.

I never once paid the slightest attention to the throw of the dice in life that gave one of us a darker skin that the other.

But for sure, if race ever did come up with Dennis, and I knew about it, I did something about it, without having to come to a website to ask if I did the right thing. Grow a backbone and stand up for what is right, and speak out against wrong.

JMHO

d

 

[stevetheupsguy]

So why is it that one race can say a word and there not be anything wrong with it, but yet another race can say the same word and be dragged to jail, fired from his job etc? I think you're only talking about one race here. I never hear Hispanics calling each other S__c's or Jews Ki__'s, for example. I don't know what makes that acceptable, though there is an ongoing excuse that it's okay because you're saying it this way and not that, as in Gah as opposed to GER.


BTW, there are a lot of dark skinned Americans that are from many other countries other than Africa. So are they also "African Americans"?
d

Good point.

I've always wondered if a white person from South Africa can refer to themselves as African-Americans. Technically speaking they are African Americans and could be treated as "other" on any sort of application or survey of any sort.

I think they can and man oh man will that HR person be in for a surprise when they meet that "African American".

 

[pickup]

Pickup

Let me ask you a personal question, one that I am really interested in your point of view.

Without a doubt, a white man calling an "African American" person the "n" word would be considered a racist, we can all agree? It would be morally and socially wrong.

So the other day I was listening to several guys that were trash talking to each other, and the "n" word was flying around about every 15 seconds or more. Much like several shows on TV over the last few weeks that I happened to see. All of the participants in all these encounters were "African American".

So why is it that one race can say a word and there not be anything wrong with it, but yet another race can say the same word and be dragged to jail, fired from his job etc? It would be considered a hate crime?

BTW, there are a lot of dark skinned Americans that are from many other countries other than Africa. So are they also "African Americans"?
d

Daniel, first of all, I hope you don't think I was fighting with you. It hasn't been a heated exchange, at least on my side of the fence. I hope the same is true for your side.
Just in case you missed it, in post #64 , I stated my reasons why I brought the term "african american" into the discussion in the first place. If you haven't noticed it, please look at it .

Let me also state for the record that I am not black (there, I actually use the term black in real life) in case you believe this might be coming from a black person.

As for you asking me a personal question, I see three questions in your above quoted post and I wouldn't categorize any of them as personal but I'll try to answer them one by one.

first question - in a roundabout way, I'll answer this way. George Carlin in his much younger days, stated in his standup routine, that it is a shame that he can only insult his own ethnic group and get away with it .If he were black , he could do impersonations of black people and then he gives examples, essentially breaking the rule, but that is irrelevant. When those guys on the using the n-word, it wasn't coming from a white man and a lot of negative connotations associated with it if it were coming from a white man don't apply when a black man says it. As for it being a hate crime, 20 years ago , I don't think , legally such a thing existed in the united states, canada, probably. I don't think hate crime laws should be on the books, but the associated crime with the hate should be prosecuted. So if you kill a guy because he is gay, you do the time for the murder, not because you killed him because he was gay. Just my opinion. I think I also answered the second question.

If my answer doesn't make sense. Take a look at this video, (maybe kiddies shouldn't watch although this is on television.) First part illustrates how wrong it is when it comes from a white man, the second part illustrates how a black man can get away with it. (Just check with your gut feeling and see if it makes sense what I am saying) Think a white guy can get away with singing this song in public?

[video=youtube;DsvnBv0uVjo]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DsvnBv0uVjo&feature=related[/video]



So to answer the third question, are they african americans? I am not sure. One could argue yes if their ancestors came from Africa.

When I was in college , I had two black guys living on the same floor in the dorm who used to play Farrakhan tapes full volume with the door open. I objected because of the volume and they called me racist. They thought it was acceptable. The Residential assistant, R.A.( all 145 pounds of his white body) was too afraid to put a stop to it. So then i went out and got a tape of a white supremacist speaking and I blasted it full volume with the door open. I didn't necessarily believe what the guy was saying but I was trying to make a point. The R.A. tried talking to me, but I asked him what is the difference between what they are doing and what I am doing? Couldn't answer me.

Anyway, I had a little pow wow with the farakhan fans and I even went out on the limb and took a black studies class (filled a requirement)with them the next semester. Did it in the interest of being friends and they would lay off the volume if I did so. It was an adventure and I can't resist one in my younger days ( no cruise for me STUG) I couldn't make them take a white studies class as they claimed(and maybe rightfully so) that that was the rest of the curriculum at the university. Anyway the next semester, I took the class and found out that the word Black was not to be used in that classroom, African american was the term that was to be used by everyone. P.C. yes I know. So, that is when I became aware of that term and it preferred usage. As I said, I don't like it, too many syllables.

As for my own ancestry, 3/4 italian, with the rest consisting of mixes of norweigan , irish, scottish and cherokee indian thrown in( big deal, more common than you might think). I'll say this, the women on my mother's side of the family were big believers in free love way before the concept became popular. As for the italian part, way southern italian and I think you know that Italy had a long fascination with not only Africa throughout the ages but with its women as well. So, who knows, I could have a black ancestor from not too long ago. With the sun darkening my body this late may and early june, I am getting confused with being hispanic again as people come up to me to ask questions in spanish.

By the way, I use to see these upn(network) shows that had black character casts on them and they would really make racist white jokes. And it was acceptable(not to me) If those same jokes were said by a white cast and they just substituted the word black for white., it never would have gotten past the network censors and if it did, the FCC would have fined the show. Double standard . Heck yes

I am actually not disagreeing with you danny . I think you just thought my first comment about african americans was actually serious and used it as a springboard.

Well, I gotta go out , i'll take a look later to see if you accept my answers.

 

[pickup]

I am back momentarily, didn't really answer third question fully

if that dark skin person of african ancestry (and he looked black)from another country came here and became a citizen and moved to montgomery alabama in the 50s, I think his lot would have been the same as any other long time resident black person in that area. Would anyone disagree?

CementUps -like that little scenario you put up , cute? Even cuter with the hitler avatar

 

[dannyboy]

Pickup

Actually you and I agree pretty much down the line.

I had a conversation with an atty Friday afternoon about the "expanded" hate crimes bill.

My wife comes home and finds me with a 18 year old cutie playing around the house. She gets mad and shoots me between the eyes. They bring her up on charges of murder, or maybe man 2.

Same wife comes home and finds me playing between the sheets with Bill. She gets mad and shoots me between the eyes. They can now charge her with a hate crime, and she is in some deep crap with the legal system. Federal charges.

So how much sense does that make. I got shot in exactly the same place, I am just as dead in one as the other. But because of some activists and a screwy manipulated court system, the punishment is much worse for her in the second case than the first, even though the crime is exactly the same.

To me that is not only illegal, but down right absurd.

But those are the times we are living in.

Interesting class, African American studies. I remember one of the college football teams not that long ago that was in the play offs. I guess 80% or more of the players were majoring in African American studies, and some were even honor students in that major. Really impressive stuff.

As for fighting, no way. I was actually very interested in your personal take on several issues, mostly in that you posted from a slightly different view. Believe me, this has been a great thread with honest open discussion, with the exception of maybe city. Too many claims of honesty, but then what he posts doesnt fit.

Thanks for your view.

Best

d

PS, I found that Utube not only offensive but disgusting. But it proves my point.

 

[City Driver]

I do.

I guess I just don't get it.
What I really want to know is if City Driver would've reported it had the black guy turned around and punched the white guy in the mouth.

City Driver- The fact that the incident stood out enough in your mind to prompt you to start a BC topic but not to report the incident to HR is a real head scratcher.
I'm also trying to figure out the point in addressing such an offensive remark and in the process throwing out a potentially offensive stereotype.
The way I see it using the words 'Good ol boy' or 'redneck' to describe someone you believe to be from the deep south isn't much better than some jerk throwing out the 'poopyface' remark.
Racists come from all regions. Period.
If you weren't offended by the other driver or moved enough to speak up and tell him what a foul remark it was, I don't see the point in your post.

in my mind, and in my opinion i did nothing wrong


nobody insulted me, he insulted the other driver

now read the thread again, i didnt ask if i did the right thing....i asked if the black driver should of reported the incident


and danny, dont tell me to grow a backbone

if somebody would of walked in there and called me a or something it would be a whole different story, i would do much more then speak up

you can claim thats racist all you want, the fact that i only get offended if my race is insulted...but to me thats not racist at all

you are just one of those people who labels everybody a racist

 

[old levi's]

i think you are assuming im white....im not

im hispanic

and no i will not be reporting this...if the black guy wants to report the other guy thats his business.....if he doesnt want to make an incident out of it then thats also his business

but this driver had to be straight ouf of the backwoods of the deep south...

Hold it right there. If that last line is not discriminatory then what is. You better clean up around your own house.

 

[bigbrownhen]

Danny, if I read a City's op correctly, the "offensive" driver was from another company, he was not a UPS employee. I used to drive for another freight co that had alot of different truck lines come and go dropping freight, I believe this is the case at UPS Freight as well, so this incident most likely did happen.

As for who should or shouldn't report it, try this situation.
If a man were to make a sexist comment to me at work, and it was overheard by another person. Who should make the complaint? I think it would be me, not the person who overheard said conversation.
Make no mistake, I can take care of myself, I have worked with men more than women my entire life. A woman learns which ones she can be comfortable with, and who to keep "the wall" up with.
Now, as far as reporting what was said, not if it was a rude remark. If it was threatening or physical in any way, yes in a heartbeat, it is reported. Other than that, he just gets put in his place and learns not to talk to me like that again, if the comments continue, then it is taken to another level.

 

[dannyboy]

City

Lemme explain this to where you can understand it.

Not all that long ago, this polish guy was standing there watching when a bunch of soldiers came by and arrested and shot this guy because of being homosexual. A week later, they arrested and jailed another for speaking out against the government. Later on, they did the same for the black guy down the street, the baptist, the Jew, the catholic, the lesbian couple, the republican, and dozens more all around.

The polish guy never said a word or did anything, because it did not affect him personally.

Then they came for him. He tried to resist, and screamed and cried for help, but there was no one that could help, they had all been done away with earlier.

Yes, you dont have a back bone. A fellow employee is assaulted in ways that if it was done to you, you would have responded even with violence. But because it was done to someone else, you dont see anything that was done that was wrong. Not only do you not have a backbone to stand up for what is right, you are so selfish you cant see anyone else as a human that might need help.

Grow up, grow a backbone, and stand up for each other. Stand up against wrongs where ever you find them, and speak up when things like this occur. These are things that those that practice tyranny cant stand. When good men stand by and do nothing, tyranny rules.

I read your posts. I still really dont believe you, think you made the whole thing up. All of it except you not having a backbone.

d

 

[dannyboy]

Brown Hen

I am sure you know how to fend for yourself.

But as a driver, standing by listening to someone assault you verbally, Im sorry, I would step in at least verbally to your defense.

This type of behavior has no place. Not in every day life, and for sure not at work. There is a reason there are laws that cover this type of misbehavior.

There is no excuse in the world for this type of behavior. None.

As for the guy being from another trucking company, I would have escorted him off property, and asked security to prohibit him from ever coming back on property again. And if asked why, I would share with them the story.

We have a right to expect, and UPS has a responsibility to provide a workplace free of this type of behavior.

I do find city's response to wrong or right based on race somewhat interesting though. It really is the essence of racism.

d

 

[bigbrownhen]

Danny. I have no doubt you would step up and say something, and I would appreciate the back up. My point was it is up to the person such behavior is directed to should be the one to make complaint. It is up to them if they want it taken to the next level or not, with the exception of assault or intended violence. If some jerk makes a rude comment, I would handle it myself at first, then if it continues then make it "official" with supervisor. Again, depending on the severity of the remark is the deciding factor, and I feel it is my call if put in that situation.

 

[dannyboy]

it is up to the person such behavior is directed to should be the one to make complaint. It is up to them if they want it taken to the next level or not

I agree 100%. That is what would separate foolish stupidity from something intentionally meant to hurt or degrade.

But to actually stand there and think that since it was not directed at me, then it could not be considered racist, is a real stretch of the imagination.

I find his response to the whole thing just as offensive as the initial post, which I think he still made up.

Our country will fall when good men (and women) stand by and do nothing when this type of behavior is exhibited.

d

 

[mungrin]

Rat the ********* out,he deserves to lose his job.

 

[pickup]

Pickup

Actually you and I agree pretty much down the line.

I had a conversation with an atty Friday afternoon about the "expanded" hate crimes bill.

My wife comes home and finds me with a 18 year old cutie playing around the house. She gets mad and shoots me between the eyes. They bring her up on charges of murder, or maybe man 2.

Same wife comes home and finds me playing between the sheets with Bill. She gets mad and shoots me between the eyes. They can now charge her with a hate crime, and she is in some deep crap with the legal system. Federal charges.

So how much sense does that make. I got shot in exactly the same place, I am just as dead in one as the other. But because of some activists and a screwy manipulated court system, the punishment is much worse for her in the second case than the first, even though the crime is exactly the same.

To me that is not only illegal, but down right absurd.

But those are the times we are living in.

Interesting class, African American studies. I remember one of the college football teams not that long ago that was in the play offs. I guess 80% or more of the players were majoring in African American studies, and some were even honor students in that major. Really impressive stuff.

As for fighting, no way. I was actually very interested in your personal take on several issues, mostly in that you posted from a slightly different view. Believe me, this has been a great thread with honest open discussion, with the exception of maybe city. Too many claims of honesty, but then what he posts doesnt fit.

Thanks for your view.

Best

d

PS, I found that Utube not only offensive but disgusting. But it proves my point.

Danny, always appreciate your take on things too, and not just on this thread. Thanks.

 

[pickup]

just for the sake of accuracy, I mistakenly overstated my "italian stallinous" in a previous post in this thread. My father was 3/4 italian. With no italian ancestry on my mother's side, that would make me 3/8 italian ancestry. Not that it matters, but I just wanted to correct that fact before anyone makes me an offer I can't refuse and try to recruit me for membership in a gentleman's club. My great grandfather was in that club and he got whacked.

 

[dilligaf]

Danny. I have no doubt you would step up and say something, and I would appreciate the back up. My point was it is up to the person such behavior is directed to should be the one to make complaint. It is up to them if they want it taken to the next level or not, with the exception of assault or intended violence. If some jerk makes a rude comment, I would handle it myself at first, then if it continues then make it "official" with supervisor. Again, depending on the severity of the remark is the deciding factor, and I feel it is my call if put in that situation.

Hen, A couple of years ago, now, I had an issue at work with another driver. The driver was making comments and being threatening and hostile. This hostility was heard by othes who stood around and did nothing. And denied hearing it. I reported it, repeatedly. Nothing was done about it, until one night when it happened in front of a sup and a customer. Then, and only then was it responded to and only with a slap on the hand for it. At that point in time, I had had enough. I had to go outside the company to get anything done about it. And I did, and to this day that particular driver stays away from me. He knows that I hold all the cards. The funny thing (no it's not really funny, it's sad) is I am not the first female that this driver has attacked like this.

So, Danny is right.

Our country will fall when good men (and women) stand by and do nothing when this type of behavior is exhibited.

and our company

I refuse to stand around and let this type of behavior go unpunished.