Who will BUSH Pardon?
- Thread starter The Other Side
- Start date
av8torntn
Well-Known Member
Ok you first posted they shot an innocent man. I challenged that now you agree they shot a criminal. That sound you hear is me laughing at you not with you. I could have just asked if you even read the article you posted that said he was a drug smuggler which makes him a criminal not some innocent man. Here is a link to his indictment. http://www.usdoj.gov/usao/txw/press_releases/Compean-Ramos/aldrete_arrest.pdf
Now for the grown folk here. I do not support a pardon for these men. After unloading two magazines on the criminal and only grazing him this alone makes them grossly incompetent. (a joke mr. radical and kitten)
The way I see it these men did not follow the use of force guidelines or proper reporting procedures. These actions brought charges in court. I feel like a big reason they were convicted was due to their actions after the shooting of the illegal alien drug smuggler (this is not some innocent man we are talking about). We cannot allow our law enforcement officers to use force without regard to any rules. This can be a very dangerous path to follow.
I do not agree with minimum mandatory federal sentencing guidelines. I feel like a fair sentence would have been a $250 fine and 30 days house arrest with a permanent bar from federal law enforcement. I would like to see Bush commute their sentence. These men broke the law and were found guilty and should be given some punishment.
tieguy
Banned
Funny how the facts get in your way from time to time AV8 and BRETT.
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]INVASION USA[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Palatino, Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif][SIZE=+2]Border Patrol agents[/SIZE][/FONT]
[SIZE=+2][FONT=Palatino, Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif]sentenced to prison[/FONT][/SIZE]
[FONT=Palatino, Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif][SIZE=+1]11-12 years for shooting drug-smuggling[/SIZE][/FONT]
[SIZE=+1][FONT=Palatino, Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif]suspect in buttocks as he fled across frontier[/FONT][/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Posted: October 20, 2006[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]5:00 pm Eastern[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]© 2008 WorldNetDaily.com [/SIZE]
Agent Jose Alonso Compean. Courtesy of KFOX-TVTwo U.S. Border Patrol agents were sentenced to prison terms of 11 years and 12 years for shooting a drug-smuggling suspect in the buttocks as he fled across the U.S.-Mexico border.
U.S. District Court Judge Kathleen Cardone in El Paso, Texas, sentenced Jose Alonso Compean to 12 years in prison and Ignacio Ramos to 11 years and one day despite a plea by their attorney for a new trial after three jurors said they were coerced into voting guilty in the case, the Washington Times reported. As WorldNetDaily reported, a federal jury convicted Compean, 28, and Ramos, 37, in March after a two-week trial on charges of causing serious bodily injury, assault with a deadly weapon, discharge of a firearm in relation to a crime of violence and a civil rights violation.
Why did you post an article that says they shot a drug smuggler? Of course you probably also know he was an illegal alien. Those are at least two crimes the young man that got shot was guilty of. Thanks for the help but like I posted earlier the man that was shot was not an innocent person. I do not care what they say about you I get lots of entertainment value from some of your goofy posts. [/quote]
Susan would have been particularly fond of supporting a drug smuggling illegal over a law enforcement officer.
I'm with Red ...shoot em several times just to make sure you got it right.
chev
Nightcrawler
#7 .....AND YES>>>>SHOOT TO KILL!!!Well, its that time of the year where Presidents start recieving requests from people to PARDON somebody.
Who will it be this time? What BUSH criminals will be set free before he leave office??? Hmmm?
My picks are:
1) "scooter" Libby
2) Ken Lay
3) Jeffrey Skilling
4) Top Worldcom execs who pleaded guilty
5) Tom Delay
6) Jack Abramoff
7) 2 Border Agents convicted of shooting an innocent person.
Those are my picks, what are yours?
Time to show them who's country they keep INVADING!
They have NO right to cross OUR boarder.
Enough with the pansy ass crap.
diesel96
Well-Known Member
Scooter Libby, (let me correct you and myself for spelling Liddy instead of Libby, who's another past domestic terrorist working for Republican interests) anyway, Libby committed the worst kind of crime against America, Treason, lets call it for what it is.
Under Federal Guidelines he could have been sentenced to 25yrs plus Millions in damages.
Not just being convicted of Obstruction of Justice in blocking a Federal Investigation, but for outing a CIA Operative who, along with her spouses's outlook knew the Executive Branch was lying about Iraq. Predictably, you brush this off as "just a lie about something that was not even a crime", and protect this unethical, anti-constitutional Republican executive Branch, and piss on the Judicial Branch.
How Dick Cheney of you. You make me laugh for someone who is pro-less-Gov't, yet ironically clings to their will of obtaining and distributing ultimate power.
This is a crime against Society, the American people, and the Juduicial Service and all those who worked to have this convivtion upheld.
Now I know you swore an oath to your Gov't and Commander-in-Chief when you signed up, but now, as a veteran out of uniform, it's ok to call out this batch of Commander and cronies for what they are......criminals, and it illuminates with Bush/Cheney commuting his sentence. For that in itself is an admission in guilt.
Just what might justify pardoning Scooter Libby? I mean, if you are George W. Bush, what principles would you rely upon to rationalize the neutering of the judicial process? The jury was clear, the judge was clear, the case was clear...Scooter Libby intentionally and knowingly lied and obstructed an investigation, which is quite clearly a crime. The federal government payed a great deal of money to investigate the Plame Affair and jurors (grand, and otherwise) dedicated months of their lives to ascertaining the facts. The Justice system did its job and concluded that Scooter Libby deserves to do two and a half years in prison for the crimes that he committed. If you are going to wipe that away, you must have some theory about how, ultimately, this sentence is a miscarriage of justice, not just a weak cliam of "just a lie" to something that was not even a crime. I mean really, sounds like your defending Bill Clinton instead of Scooter Libby. And boy, did Republicans try to go for the juggular with that, but end up costing the taxpayers millions for what, Bill to come out unscathed. One final note AV...Libby was convicted, Ayers was not.
P.S....Now, the last time a man called me "Kitten" I was getting hammered in Key West with my girlfriend, you haven't been hanging around there lately, have ya?
Catatonic
Nine Lives
Scooter Libby, who's another past domestic terrorist working for Republican interests, anyway, Libby committed the worst kind of crime against America, Treason, lets call it for what it is.
Under Federal Guidelines he could have been sentenced to 25yrs plus Millions in damages.
Now that's funny there, I don't care who you are.
av8torntn
Well-Known Member
Yep I was just having a little fun with you. I am also a horrible speller. I started to make his name Linny but I thought you may miss the joke.
av8torntn
Well-Known Member
Predictably, you brush this off as "just a lie about something that was not even a crime", and protect this unethical, anti-constitutional Republican executive Branch, and piss on the Judicial Branch.
Another classic. Thanks. Look if she was some covert agent working for the CIA that got outed by the press I would be on your side. I mean you were angry when the NYT outed the governments effort to track money right? You were angry when the NYT outed the governments effort to monitor the phone calls of terrorists into the US right? Your were angry when the NYT outed the cross border operations to kill or capture terrorists right? Oh wait a minute that was not you. You cheered loudly at these acts of "treason" as you say. Bottom line is if Plame was a covert agent she was the worst covert agent ever. She walked in to the CIA headquarters everyday to report to work. She openly told her friends and what sounds like anyone else who would listen where she worked. In Wilson's own words she told him of her employment on their third date.
You may not like it but Scooter Libby was the target of a political witch hunt and he should receive a pardon. If Bush had any guts he would have granted him a pardon immediately.
Oh Kitten it is 44 degrees here today. I would love to be in Key West right now. I am a to each his own kind of guy so the homosexual reference I get and find funny.
George W Bush could pardon spies involved in torture
George W Bush is considering issuing pardons for US spies embroiled in allegations of torture just before he leaves the White House.
By Tim Shipman in Washington
Last Updated: 5:20PM GMT 15 Nov 2008
Senior intelligence officers are lobbying the outgoing president to look after the men and women who could face charges for following his orders in the war on terrorism.
Many fear that Barack Obama, who has pledged to close the Guantanamo Bay detention camp and put an end to the policy of extraordinary rendition, could launch a legal witch hunt against those who oversaw the policies after he is sworn in on Jan 20.
Most vulnerable are US intelligence officers who took part in intensive interrogations against terrorist suspects, using techniques including water boarding, which many believe crossed the line into torture.
A former CIA officer familiar with the backstage lobbying for pardons, said: "These are the people President Bush asked to fight the war on terror for him. He gave them the green light to fight tough. The view of many in the intelligence community is that he should not leave them vulnerable to legal censure when he leaves.
"An effort is under way to get pre-emptive pardons. The White House has indicated that the matter is under consideration."
In addition to frontline CIA and military officers, others at risk could include David Addington, Dick Cheney's former counsel, and William Haynes, the former Pentagon general counsel who helped draw up the regulations governing enhanced interrogations.
Many in the Democratic party and human rights groups are calling on President-Elect Obama to tear up Mr Bush's executive orders licensing intensive interrogations on his first day in the Oval Office. They also want an immediate end to rendition, whereby suspects are flown to countries that practise torture.
But some in the intelligence community fear that an overhaul of the justice department could embolden those who would like a full-blown investigation of what went on at Guantanamo Bay, with charges to follow for those involved.
Presidents can issue pardons at their discretion and those granted the immunity of a pardon do not need to have been previously charged with a crime.
Granting pardons to spies who allegedly used torture would complicate the politics surrounding Mr Obama's moves to end aspects of the war on terror that are blamed for tarnishing America's international reputation.
In meetings over the last two weeks, Mr Obama has been briefed by US intelligence chiefs on the extreme danger posed by some terrorist suspects in the Guantanamo Bay camp. His advisers last week floated the idea that, while some will be released and some put on trial in normal courts, a third category of legal status may have to be created for the most dangerous - a move that met with howls of protest from civil liberties groups.
There are just 255 prisoners still held at the base on the island of Cuba, but they include the so-called "Dirty 30", bodyguards to Osama bin Laden captured during the early stages of the war in Afghanistan.
The ex-CIA official said: "The Bush people are trying to be helpful but this is the one thing that they are pushing hard on. They're saying, 'Don't rush into anything.' It's easy to say close the place, but what do you do with the detainees? There are some serious head cases in there."
Some conservatives argue that if Mr Bush were to issue pardons to protect those who took part in his administration's security regime, it would make it easier for the incoming administration to find out exactly what went on, the goal of many who want to prevent repetition of what they view as abuses.
The ex-CIA official said: "If you want people to tell the truth, the best way would be to give them legal guarantees. A pardon is not the only way you can do that, but if Bush does it, it will save Obama the political problem he would have if he offered people immunity later."
But critics say such a move would be a disgrace. James Ross, legal and policy director for Human Rights Watch, said: "It would be the first pre-emptive pardon in US history for war crimes. Such a pardon might seek to protect low-level government officials who relied on legally dubious Justice Department memos on interrogations.
"But it would also provide blanket immunity to senior administration officials who bear criminal responsibility for their role in drafting, orchestrating and implementing a US government torture programme."
Mr Bush has received around 3,000 requests for pardons and conservatives would like him to help Lewis "Scooter" Libby, Vice-President Dick Cheney's former chief of staff. He was found guilty of obstruction of justice for his role in leaking the name of a CIA officer, Valerie Plame. Mr Bush has already commuted Mr Libby's sentence.
Presidential pardons are always controversial, though Mr Bush has granted fewer than 200 so far, less than half of those handed out by Ronald Reagan. Bill Clinton issued 140 pardons on his last day in office alone. When Gerald Ford took over from Richard Nixon, he pardoned his predecessor, forgiving all federal crimes he may have committed during the Watergate scandal.
George W Bush is considering issuing pardons for US spies embroiled in allegations of torture just before he leaves the White House.
By Tim Shipman in Washington
Last Updated: 5:20PM GMT 15 Nov 2008
Senior intelligence officers are lobbying the outgoing president to look after the men and women who could face charges for following his orders in the war on terrorism.
Many fear that Barack Obama, who has pledged to close the Guantanamo Bay detention camp and put an end to the policy of extraordinary rendition, could launch a legal witch hunt against those who oversaw the policies after he is sworn in on Jan 20.
Most vulnerable are US intelligence officers who took part in intensive interrogations against terrorist suspects, using techniques including water boarding, which many believe crossed the line into torture.
A former CIA officer familiar with the backstage lobbying for pardons, said: "These are the people President Bush asked to fight the war on terror for him. He gave them the green light to fight tough. The view of many in the intelligence community is that he should not leave them vulnerable to legal censure when he leaves.
"An effort is under way to get pre-emptive pardons. The White House has indicated that the matter is under consideration."
In addition to frontline CIA and military officers, others at risk could include David Addington, Dick Cheney's former counsel, and William Haynes, the former Pentagon general counsel who helped draw up the regulations governing enhanced interrogations.
Many in the Democratic party and human rights groups are calling on President-Elect Obama to tear up Mr Bush's executive orders licensing intensive interrogations on his first day in the Oval Office. They also want an immediate end to rendition, whereby suspects are flown to countries that practise torture.
But some in the intelligence community fear that an overhaul of the justice department could embolden those who would like a full-blown investigation of what went on at Guantanamo Bay, with charges to follow for those involved.
Presidents can issue pardons at their discretion and those granted the immunity of a pardon do not need to have been previously charged with a crime.
Granting pardons to spies who allegedly used torture would complicate the politics surrounding Mr Obama's moves to end aspects of the war on terror that are blamed for tarnishing America's international reputation.
In meetings over the last two weeks, Mr Obama has been briefed by US intelligence chiefs on the extreme danger posed by some terrorist suspects in the Guantanamo Bay camp. His advisers last week floated the idea that, while some will be released and some put on trial in normal courts, a third category of legal status may have to be created for the most dangerous - a move that met with howls of protest from civil liberties groups.
There are just 255 prisoners still held at the base on the island of Cuba, but they include the so-called "Dirty 30", bodyguards to Osama bin Laden captured during the early stages of the war in Afghanistan.
The ex-CIA official said: "The Bush people are trying to be helpful but this is the one thing that they are pushing hard on. They're saying, 'Don't rush into anything.' It's easy to say close the place, but what do you do with the detainees? There are some serious head cases in there."
Some conservatives argue that if Mr Bush were to issue pardons to protect those who took part in his administration's security regime, it would make it easier for the incoming administration to find out exactly what went on, the goal of many who want to prevent repetition of what they view as abuses.
The ex-CIA official said: "If you want people to tell the truth, the best way would be to give them legal guarantees. A pardon is not the only way you can do that, but if Bush does it, it will save Obama the political problem he would have if he offered people immunity later."
But critics say such a move would be a disgrace. James Ross, legal and policy director for Human Rights Watch, said: "It would be the first pre-emptive pardon in US history for war crimes. Such a pardon might seek to protect low-level government officials who relied on legally dubious Justice Department memos on interrogations.
"But it would also provide blanket immunity to senior administration officials who bear criminal responsibility for their role in drafting, orchestrating and implementing a US government torture programme."
Mr Bush has received around 3,000 requests for pardons and conservatives would like him to help Lewis "Scooter" Libby, Vice-President Dick Cheney's former chief of staff. He was found guilty of obstruction of justice for his role in leaking the name of a CIA officer, Valerie Plame. Mr Bush has already commuted Mr Libby's sentence.
Presidential pardons are always controversial, though Mr Bush has granted fewer than 200 so far, less than half of those handed out by Ronald Reagan. Bill Clinton issued 140 pardons on his last day in office alone. When Gerald Ford took over from Richard Nixon, he pardoned his predecessor, forgiving all federal crimes he may have committed during the Watergate scandal.
Babagounj
Strength through joy
Yes, I think it would be the wise thing to do, pardon all those who were acting under Bush's orders. Remember these prisoners are military combatants, not common criminals. Normal laws should not apply to them.
Gitmo is a country club compared to prisons in most other countries.
In some places the prisoners have to provide for their own food.
Gitmo is a country club compared to prisons in most other countries.
In some places the prisoners have to provide for their own food.
Funny how people view the mistreatment of prisoners. BUSH gives unlawful orders and everyone who carries them out gets a free pass.
"military combatants", a nice term for people "we" scooped up, hogtied, hooded and took to a foriegn land to be beaten, tortured, starved, waterboarded and then NEVER charged with a crime for several years.
Most of these "military combatants" will be released without ANY charges brought against them after years in custody.
International law and the Geneva conventions protects all people of the world, but "we" believed we could circumvent that law by placing them in cuba because cuba was not a part of the Geneva convention.
Yeah, were the good guys.
By the way, how many of these "military combatants" had to be released because we captured innocent persons? Dont forget these prisoners, they are the ones suing the US goverment for millions of dollars.
Just because RUSH coined Gitmo as "Club Gitmo" doesnt mean its a nice place. Many of the prisoners held there have died in custody without ever being charged with a crime or a hearing.
BUSH and the republican congress and senate, in a final act of desperation to cover their A$$es, gave BUSH, CHENEY and his cabinet members "retroactive" immunity from prosecution when they re-did the fisa laws in Nov. 06.
Funny, how if BUSH was doing everything right, why would he, cheney and his cabinet need "immunity"?
And yet, they wonder why the republicans were removed of power in 2006 and thrown out in 2008.
diesel96
Well-Known Member
If your opinions of the NYT's are accurate, then maybe we should have replace them with the CIA a long time ago.......As much credit as you give them, the NYT's probably would have figured out there were no WMD's in Iraq and it was just an excuse to execute Jr's fake plot.
You may not have respect for our Judicial System, but like it or not, Scooter was convicted. And I will repeat, if Bush pardon's Libby, it's an admission of guilt. It's that cut and dry.
Now you somehow have the clearance to flame CIA Operative Plame. Where do you get your inside information ?.....Oh, of course...The NY Times...
Let's hear it for treason...Hip Hip Hooray 
Give me a....T...Give me a... R...Give me a...E...Give me a...A...Give me a...S...Give me a...O...Give me a...N....What's that spell? Bush/Cheney!
tieguy
Banned
If your opinions of the NYT's are accurate, then maybe we should have replace them with the CIA a long time ago.......As much credit as you give them, the NYT's probably would have figured out there were no WMD's in Iraq and it was just an excuse to execute Jr's fake plot.
You may not have respect for our Judicial System, but like it or not, Scooter was convicted. And I will repeat, if Bush pardon's Libby, it's an admission of guilt. It's that cut and dry.
Now you somehow have the clearance to flame CIA Operative Plame. Where do you get your inside information ?.....Oh, of course...The NY Times...
Give me a....T...Give me a... R...Give me a...E...Give me a...A...Give me a...S...Give me a...O...Give me a...N....What's that spell? Bush/Cheney!
I'm sure Iraq would still have been a campaign issue if we had not gone in.
av8torntn
Well-Known Member
Babagounj
Strength through joy
Funny how people view the mistreatment of prisoners. BUSH gives unlawful orders and everyone who carries them out gets a free pass.
"military combatants", a nice term for people "we" scooped up, hogtied, hooded and took to a foriegn land to be beaten, tortured, starved, waterboarded and then NEVER charged with a crime for several years.
Can you actually prove any of this with facts ?
Back up this jibberrish . " militart combatants " in my book are not innocent people, they were detained while in armed combat against our troops. They did not fight under an national flag nor wear uniforms of any country.
Have you read any of the independent reports about Gitmo ?
Or have you only listened to the reports from " unknown " sources?
Most of these "military combatants" will be released without ANY charges brought against them after years in custody.
But where will they be released ? Since most countries do not want them ?
How about the ones who have been set free only to be found back in Iraq still shooting at our troops ?
International law and the Geneva conventions protects all people of the world, but "we" believed we could circumvent that law by placing them in cuba because cuba was not a part of the Geneva convention.
The Geneva Convention has definite rules about who & what, not every country signed that paper. Especially not those fighting without a defined country.
Yeah, were the good guys.
Yes we are. So far all the battles have been in some one esle's back yard.
By the way, how many of these "military combatants" had to be released because we captured innocent persons? Dont forget these prisoners, they are the ones suing the US goverment for millions of dollars.
And you can thank the ACLU for those lawsuits.
Just because RUSH coined Gitmo as "Club Gitmo" doesnt mean its a nice place. Many of the prisoners held there have died in custody without ever being charged with a crime or a hearing.
Again prove that statement........with real facts.
BUSH and the republican congress and senate, in a final act of desperation to cover their A$, gave BUSH, CHENEY and his cabinet members "retroactive" immunity from prosecution when they re-did the fisa laws in Nov. 06.
SO what
Funny, how if BUSH was doing everything right, why would he, cheney and his cabinet need "immunity"?
Because of fools who think that the ACLU knows best.
And yet, they wonder why the republicans were removed of power in 2006 and thrown out in 2008.
Yes I recall that the democrats ran on a "end the war" platform in 2006. Yet they have done little. Heck their poll numbers are lower than Bush's.
Catatonic
Nine Lives
Funny how people view the mistreatment of prisoners. BUSH gives unlawful orders and everyone who carries them out gets a free pass.
This pales in comparison to getting a Lewinsky in the Oval Office.
My very being has been defiled, along with her dress.
diesel96
Well-Known Member
Nice Try AV8: But why don't you change your Kitty litter cause it's getting stale and your stepping in it
.....Denial of Libby's conviction of "Obstruction of Justice and blocking a Federal investigation" is very juvenile. As an official working for the Gov't, his involvement could have been considered Treason, had a congress with a backbone brought Bush/Cheney up on criminal charges and impeachment hearings.As far as no WMD's, President Bush has admitted the exact same thing. In 2004, this was Bush in his own words:
"The chief weapons inspector, Charles Duelfer, has now issued a comprehensive report that confirms the earlier conclusion of David Kay that Iraq did not have the weapons that our intelligence believed were there."
http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=1150
do you defend this administration and all it's baggage. You should worry about a Rep' party in such disarray, they don't know what direction there going in. And a conservative label with a split personality.
