A supervisor stands up to the IE manager...and pays the price

[stevetheupsguy]

You`re talking about two different rides. The first,an annual certification, is the ride where one demonstrates their driving ability and knowledge of the safe driving habits. And yes supes must find 8 to 10 things wrong on every driver,straight from the supes mouth. All are minor things.

The second is a performance ride and to get one someone is usually going above and beyond the acceptable levels of being slow,etc. No one in my years of feeder have been let go during or after a ride rather they`ll catch someone by observing them from afar.

Is that, Jamie Afarr?

 

[soberups]

Sober,

I have explained before how the planning system works. I'll do it again.....

What you have explained...is the theory of how it is supposed to work according to the "official" policy.

What I keep telling you...is how the system is actually applied and used in the real world of day-to-day operations.

The theory and the reality are quite different.

The entire system becomes a self-perpetuating loop of impossible expectations. IE comes up with "standards" that are based upon fantasy rather than reality and requires the routes to be dispatched accordingly. The drivers cut corners and work off of the clock in order to live up to those standards...and the results then become the new "standard" that must somehow be continually improved upon.

 

[stevetheupsguy]

What you have explained...is the theory of how it is supposed to work according to the "official" policy.

What I keep telling you...is how the system is actually applied and used in the real world of day-to-day operations.

The theory and the reality are quite different.

The entire system becomes a self-perpetuating loop of impossible expectations. IE comes up with "standards" that are based upon fantasy rather than reality and requires the routes to be dispatched accordingly. [-]The[/-] Some drivers cut corners and work off of the clock in order to live up to those standards...and the results then become the new "standard" that must somehow be continually improved upon.

Fixed it for ya.

 

[pretzel_man]

Under no circumstances is our management allowed to dispatch an "underload".

They must get the "planned" day up over 8 hrs on paper, even if it means dispatching a 10 hr day in the "real" world.

The reality is irrelevant. The WOR is all that matters.

If you want to maximize the number of stops per car while keeping the pressure on for increased production, the solution is simple; rig the allowance to not factor in necessary work such as sorting, then blame and harass the driver for not "following the methods" when he is unable to live up to the impossible expectations you have placed upon him.

In order to stop the harassment and get the work done in a reasonable time, many drivers will just cave in an do this necessary work off of the clock....which is what the system was designed to accomplish in the first place.

You claim that the system for measuring time was intended to be fair and realistic...yet according to UPS policy, once a time study has been done the results are chiseled in stone and they will never be corrected, no matter how far divorced from reality those results are. By definition, such a system is not designed to be fair or realistic. It is designed to maximize productivity, by any means necessary.

Sober,

You are right about one thing.... I missed this one.

If a driver is more than 1.5 hours overallowed, this will cause a problem. In order to get the paid day below 9.5, the plan would have to be below 8.

You got me on that one item.

Everything else you say is incorrect. You said that the plan does not include overallowed. That is wrong. Go look.

You say the allowances are rigged. That is wrong. I've done too many and taught too many workshops.

While its true that the time study will not be adjusted for overallowed, that has nothing to do with the plan.

I agree and have said many times, the driver is NOT the cause for much of the overallowed. The overallowed points to where a problem exists. Not who caused it.

Yes, I.E. is going to pressure the operations to reduce overallowed. I've done that myself. The way to reduce overallowed is not to change the measurement, its to fix the underlying problem. Sometimes its the driver. More often its the preload.

The work measurement is not the cause for overallowed. That exists.

P-Man

 

[cachsux]

Is that, Jamie Afarr?

Hey,fix spell check. And apparently your photobucket account,smartguy.

 

[soberups]

Sober,

Yes, I.E. is going to pressure the operations to reduce overallowed. I've done that myself. The way to reduce overallowed is not to change the measurement, its to fix the underlying problem. Sometimes its the driver. More often its the preload.
P-Man

All too frequently...the measurement is the underlying problem.

Since company policy is that flawed measurements are chiseled in stone and will never be corrected...the only "solution" that management has to solve the problem that IE has created is to harass the drivers into working off of the clock in order to make up the time.

Its sort of like the issues Wal-Mart has had with employees filing lawsuits over being forced to work off of the clock. Of course, on paper at least, Wal-Marts "official" policy is that such behavior is prohibited. There is probably even a memo on the employee bulletin board to that effect.

That memo isnt worth the paper its written on. The reality...is that the stores are understaffed to the point where there is no hope of getting all the work done in the allotted time, so empoyees are more or less forced to work off of the clock.

Like Wal-Mart, the UPS I.E managers who are responsible for determining the manpower budget and time allowances are well aware of this fact...but it isnt their problem. They create impossible expectations, and the employees and operations-level management have no choice but to live up to them. And if some some low level sup gets caught fudging his numbers or making his people work off of the clock? They will simply throw him under the bus and replace him with someone else... who will have those same impossible expectations placed upon him. And the cycle perpetuates, with those at the top (IE) the sole beneficiaries of the scam that they have created.

 

[pretzel_man]

We are going to go around in circles on this argument. I'll make my point here, and then let you have the last word.

How can you and others here simumtaneously talk about management mistakes and inefficiencies and then imply that the overallowed pointed out by work measurement doesn't exist? It only confirms the inefficiencies that you pointed out.

Like all systems, the UPS system is flawed. Even by I.E.'s own standards, work measurement is only 95% accurate, 95% of the time. You however not only point out the known flaws but then assert that they were purposely placed there as part of a conspiracy theory.

If they were purposeful, why is it that in all my years, I have never been told about them. Why with all the classes I took and taught was I never given that insight. I have known every corporate head of I.E. very well all the way back to Bob Logan. Of course you can say that I am part of the conspiracy.

You seem to ignore facts that don't support your theory. I suggested that you look at how the planning system calculates in order to prove that overallowed is included in the plan. That fact was not important to you.

I have a thick skin. I can handle criticism. What I won't accept is your accusation that me and others like me purposely set up a system to take advantage of others.

As I said, I will give you the last word without a response.

P-Man

All too frequently...the measurement is the underlying problem.

Since company policy is that flawed measurements are chiseled in stone and will never be corrected...the only "solution" that management has to solve the problem that IE has created is to harass the drivers into working off of the clock in order to make up the time.

Its sort of like the issues Wal-Mart has had with employees filing lawsuits over being forced to work off of the clock. Of course, on paper at least, Wal-Marts "official" policy is that such behavior is prohibited. There is probably even a memo on the employee bulletin board to that effect.

That memo isnt worth the paper its written on. The reality...is that the stores are understaffed to the point where there is no hope of getting all the work done in the allotted time, so empoyees are more or less forced to work off of the clock.

Like Wal-Mart, the UPS I.E managers who are responsible for determining the manpower budget and time allowances are well aware of this fact...but it isnt their problem. They create impossible expectations, and the employees and operations-level management have no choice but to live up to them. And if some some low level sup gets caught fudging his numbers or making his people work off of the clock? They will simply throw him under the bus and replace him with someone else... who will have those same impossible expectations placed upon him. And the cycle perpetuates, with those at the top (IE) the sole beneficiaries of the scam that they have created.

 

[tourists24]

Like all systems, the UPS system is flawed. Even by I.E.'s own standards, work measurement is only 95% accurate, 95% of the time.

problem here is Pretz, that the system is used by Operations as the bible.... doesnt matter how accurate or inaccurate the system is; we are to meet the numbers or get harrassed. I still disagree with 95%. What human standard represents this? How can someone 5'0 tall and 45 years old possibly keep this standard compared to someone 6'0 tall and 28 years old?

I have a thick skin. I can handle criticism. What I won't accept is your accusation that me and others like me purposely set up a system to take advantage of others.

The criticism I have is that the standards should be able to be changed by people in operations, not by IE people. IE may have the computer knowledge, but it shouldnt be able to be the final say on how our operations are run. You dont know how many times Ive told mgt how stupid things are being run because of having to look good on paper only to hear "We have to make the numbers or we get in trouble". Service takes a back seat

P-Man

 

[UnconTROLLed]

Question: if a driver puts a lunch in his board every day and works through the lunch including delivering, does that not make impossible standards for the next driver?

I am wondering why supervisors keep telling me that I should be able to do 140-150 stops every day in 8.5 hours. One of the on-cars told me the guy previous to me, who was a temp seasonal/vaca/peak driver worked his lunches, and when he rode with him his days suddenly went to 9.5 hours.

This seems to be what sober is saying except it is partially the drivers fault in this case the route is setup to fail. I.E. has this expectation that everyone who now does the route shuold be able to make 8.5 hours out of an easy 10 hour dispatch.

 

[brownIEman]

Question: if a driver puts a lunch in his board every day and works through the lunch including delivering, does that not make impossible standards for the next driver?

I am wondering why supervisors keep telling me that I should be able to do 140-150 stops every day in 8.5 hours. One of the on-cars told me the guy previous to me, who was a temp seasonal/vaca/peak driver worked his lunches, and when he rode with him his days suddenly went to 9.5 hours.

This seems to be what sober is saying except it is partially the drivers fault in this case the route is setup to fail. I.E. has this expectation that everyone who now does the route shuold be able to make 8.5 hours out of an easy 10 hour dispatch.

your analysis looks very accurate to me.

sobber sees it all as an IE conspiracy designed specifically to get drivers to work off lunch. My view is that it is all set up to get the most possible out of the workforce, then get a little more. Lunches do not even factor into it. If drivers choose to work for free through lunch to look better, personally, I think they are adults and should have that choice. I do however recognize that the union, the company, and most states disagree with me on that so functionaly I defer to their wishes.

 

[happybob]

Interesting thread - I have not had time to spend on BC lately (still don't!) but I needed a little break today. I always love the thought provoking discussion from EVERYBODY!

Tie - don't let the management bashing get to you. I realize it is more of the censorship issue than an issue with soberups. The mods have a job to do and I think they do it well! You are way better than the few posts I saw at the beginning of this thread. Sober.... I get you! We don't always agree but you have a lot of thoughtful comments that make sense. If we can look past management vs non-management and us vs them we can and will make progress ... if we can't look past that we won't survive.



Jones - Here are the definitions of method and rule.

Method - a particular form of procedure for accomplishing or approaching something, esp. a systematic or established one : a method for software maintenance | labor-intensive production methods.
• orderliness of thought or behavior; systematic planning or action :

Rule - one of a set of explicit or understood regulations or principles governing conduct within a particular activity or sphere : the rules of the game were understood.
• a law or principle that operates within a particular sphere of knowledge, describing or prescribing what is possible or allowable : the rules of grammar.
• ( the rule) the normal or customary state of things : such accidents are the exception rather than the rule.

You guys spent a lot of posts (who is right and who is WRONG) arguing over NOTHING! LOL! This sounds more like a pissing contest!

Sober - why don't you sit down with your supervisor and show him/her a better way to run your route. I contend that most time is lost in the back of the package car "massaging" the load. Work with your supervisor until the trace is acceptable! It will make your job easier in the long run.

Back in the day - 1975 to be exact. My supervisor handed me a bunch of punch cards and asked me to put them in the correct order for delivery. I had to add cards, break up block numbers add streets etc but boy was it worth it in the end. I never forgot that when I went into management. Anytime a driver asked for help I was there to assist and help fix a problem. My point is that this didn't just start with EDD. If your supervisor won't help, find someone who will.... that "someone" is out there and will help you. I guarantee it!

It the early 90's it was a long computer generated printout, called the DOL. I was asked to help with it. Took it home, yes, on my time, I rewrote the loop the way I did the route, including changes to the sequence numbers and how the car should be loaded. I was normally 1 hour underallowed on that run, and yes, I always took my lunch. Businesses were always deliverd at the same time, give or take 15 min, no complaints about any pickup times, etc. When anyone else did the route they were close to 1 hour overallowed. IT NEVER GOT CHANGED. To this day the numbers are still the same way, and the route is still run close to 1 hour overallowed by the driver doing it now. Finding that someone to fix the problem isnt as easy as you may think.

 

[happybob]

your analysis looks very accurate to me.

sobber sees it all as an IE conspiracy designed specifically to get drivers to work off lunch. My view is that it is all set up to get the most possible out of the workforce, then get a little more. Lunches do not even factor into it. If drivers choose to work for free through lunch to look better, personally, I think they are adults and should have that choice. I do however recognize that the union, the company, and most states disagree with me on that so functionaly I defer to their wishes.

I do not agree with you on that one IEMAN.

1. Drivers shouldn't have to work for free to make themselves look good. Working through their lunch hour to make unrealistic numbers is a problem that should be addressed by your department or with their onroad supervisor to find out why they have to work through their lunch to make those numbers. If a previous lunch runner is going to be the standards that a new driver has to make then we have problems.

2. Your mentality of "get the mopst out of the workforve, and then more" is the problem. You want to get it out of the worker, by telling him/her to run his/her lunch hour, instead of finding the best technology and ewquipment to make that possible. A human can only walk so fast, and carry so many packages at one time.

 

[soberups]

your analysis looks very accurate to me.

sobber sees it all as an IE conspiracy designed specifically to get drivers to work off lunch. My view is that it is all set up to get the most possible out of the workforce, then get a little more. Lunches do not even factor into it. If drivers choose to work for free through lunch to look better, personally, I think they are adults and should have that choice. I do however recognize that the union, the company, and most states disagree with me on that so functionaly I defer to their wishes.

I have always been a believer in Occam's Razor---which is a scientific principle that states that, all things being equal, the simple solution tends to be the most accurate one.

Drivers being pushed to work thru lunch due to bad allowances is an endemic part of the UPS reality nationwide. It isnt isolated.

You deny that there is some sort of conspiracy. So is it just a coincidence that so many routes consistently run overallowed no matter who runs them...and that they are, conveniently, "overallowed" by almost the exact amount of time that we are supposed to clock off for our lunches and breaks?

I guess it could all be an amazing coincidence. I suppose it is possible that the fact so many routes just magically seem to run around an hour overallowed is due to some strange twist of fate.

I suppose it could also be an amazing coincidence that there arent any routes that dont run an hour or more underallowed without the driver resorting to unsafe or improper methods.

For me, however, the simple answer makes the most sense.

IE isnt stupid. They know damn good and well how long every aspect of our jobs should take. They have performed exhaustive measurments of every single thing relating to job performance. They also know damn good and well how many millions of dollars a year can be saved if a given percentage of drivers can be coerced, manipulated or harassed into working off of the clock.

I dont believe in coincidences. The simple answer...is that the system is working exactly the way IE wants it to.

 

[happybob]

The only way preload could load your truck properly is if you had 50 stops loaded in a p12. And each stop was 1 package.

Preload does not have the time or space to do their job in a sufficient manner. You are jamming too many boxes in a small space to possibly load them in sequential order. You brick out a shelf as tight as possible. Then the driver sorts that brick when space opens up to do so. Whoever thinks that eliminating sorting is possible has never been a driver for more than 30 days. This is why so many drivers sort off the clock. Either before start or durning lunch. It saves that driver so much time and hastle and allows him be productive and punch out at a reasonable hour.

Again buying into the IEMAN's mentality. Do it on the company time. The hell with the numbers. Give the fair days work for a fair days pay and let them addresss the overallowed issues. OJS rides are to see if you are fundging your day. If you are following the methods they have to live with your SPORH. The lunch runner/sorter that had the route before you is probably the one that messed up the route.

 

[stevetheupsguy]

Tourists, when you put your words inside of someone else's quote, it makes it impossible to quote you. I agree with your variable of height, age, weight and such, but doesn't that infringe on the equality of employment in a way?

Question: if a driver puts a lunch in his board every day and works through the lunch including delivering, does that not make impossible standards for the next driver?

I am wondering why supervisors keep telling me that I should be able to do 140-150 stops every day in 8.5 hours. One of the on-cars told me the guy previous to me, who was a temp seasonal/vaca/peak driver worked his lunches, and when he rode with him his days suddenly went to 9.5 hours.

This seems to be what sober is saying except it is partially the drivers fault in this case the route is setup to fail. I.E. has this expectation that everyone who now does the route shuold be able to make 8.5 hours out of an easy 10 hour dispatch.

Yes it does make it impossible. You would think that now with this ODSe aka. Super-Vision, they'd see that the person is still delivering/picking up while supposedly on lunch. Another thing is why is it that no one ever gets a message to slow down when driving too fast. I'm sure that while monitoring routes, supervisors can see that people are speeding. I'm just sayin!

 

[UnconTROLLed]

Tourists, when you put your words inside of someone else's quote, it makes it impossible to quote you. I agree with your variable of height, age, weight and such, but doesn't that infringe on the equality of employment in a way?

Yes it does make it impossible. You would think that now with this ODSe aka. Super-Vision, they'd see that the person is still delivering/picking up while supposedly on lunch. Another thing is why is it that no one ever gets a message to slow down when driving too fast. I'm sure that while monitoring routes, supervisors can see that people are speeding. I'm just sayin!

Agreed. Speeding is illegal and working through a lunch is against the 340-E methods. Yet the company is not disciplining or walking people off property for breaking the law or failing to follow those methods

 

[tourists24]

Tourists, when you put your words inside of someone else's quote, it makes it impossible to quote you. I agree with your variable of height, age, weight and such, but doesn't that infringe on the equality of employment in a way?

Point taken on the quote thing Steve.... my whole point on the time allowance is that it is impossible to get an accurate study unless you just happen to fall into the "middle".... let alone set your whole performance standard for "everyone" based on a so called average

 

[stevetheupsguy]

It the early 90's it was a long computer generated printout, called the DOL. I was asked to help with it. Took it home, yes, on my time, I rewrote the loop the way I did the route, including changes to the sequence numbers and how the car should be loaded. I was normally 1 hour underallowed on that run, and yes, I always took my lunch. Businesses were always deliverd at the same time, give or take 15 min, no complaints about any pickup times, etc. When anyone else did the route they were close to 1 hour overallowed. IT NEVER GOT CHANGED. To this day the numbers are still the same way, and the route is still run close to 1 hour overallowed by the driver doing it now. Finding that someone to fix the problem isnt as easy as you may think.

They still print out the DOL and let you arrange it so that it has the most functionality. The thing about this is, they'll fix it when they get around to it all. I handed back a copy of my DOL and it was in absolute perfect order. Street breaks, high to low, low to high. Most of it was fixed, though I have asked time and again for them to fix the Street breaks and High to low stuff and been rebuffed.

All of this happened when EDD came to our bldg. Now we're bombarded with add/cuts that don't even go in line with the route. I shouldn't be leap frogging a driver, but this happens on a daily basis. Good luck trying to deliver a business at the same time each day. That's a thing of the past just like when we would be in residential area's at certain times and wave to the old guy doing yard work or the kids that just got off of the bus? Don't even get me started!

 

[BrownArmy]

Jones - Here are the definitions of method and rule.

Method - a particular form of procedure for accomplishing or approaching something, esp. a systematic or established one : a method for software maintenance | labor-intensive production methods.
• orderliness of thought or behavior; systematic planning or action :

Rule - one of a set of explicit or understood regulations or principles governing conduct within a particular activity or sphere : the rules of the game were understood.
• a law or principle that operates within a particular sphere of knowledge, describing or prescribing what is possible or allowable : the rules of grammar.
• ( the rule) the normal or customary state of things : such accidents are the exception rather than the rule.

You guys spent a lot of posts (who is right and who is WRONG) arguing over NOTHING! LOL! This sounds more like a pissing contest!

We are not allowed to put packages in mailboxes; this is a RULE, and not a method.

Keys go on the pinky finger after the bulkhead door is open; this is a METHOD, and not a rule.

Drivers must wear black or brown polish-able shoes with sturdy leather uppers; this is a RULE, and not a method.

"Select all shelf packages directly from the first 30" area of each shelf. Step through the bulkhead door only when necessary..." ; this is a METHOD, and not a rule.

Sometimes METHODS and RULES are NOT the same, although there may be times when they are...

Just sayin'.

 

[brownIEman]

I have always been a believer in Occam's Razor---which is a scientific principle that states that, all things being equal, the simple solution tends to be the most accurate one.

Drivers being pushed to work thru lunch due to bad allowances is an endemic part of the UPS reality nationwide. It isnt isolated.

You deny that there is some sort of conspiracy. So is it just a coincidence that so many routes consistently run overallowed no matter who runs them...and that they are, conveniently, "overallowed" by almost the exact amount of time that we are supposed to clock off for our lunches and breaks?

I guess it could all be an amazing coincidence. I suppose it is possible that the fact so many routes just magically seem to run around an hour overallowed is due to some strange twist of fate.

I suppose it could also be an amazing coincidence that there arent any routes that dont run an hour or more underallowed without the driver resorting to unsafe or improper methods.

For me, however, the simple answer makes the most sense.

IE isnt stupid. They know damn good and well how long every aspect of our jobs should take. They have performed exhaustive measurments of every single thing relating to job performance. They also know damn good and well how many millions of dollars a year can be saved if a given percentage of drivers can be coerced, manipulated or harassed into working off of the clock.

I dont believe in coincidences. The simple answer...is that the system is working exactly the way IE wants it to.

The simple answer here, is that you are simply wrong. No one in IE is trying to force drivers to work off the clock. The allowances for most routes are very challenging. And yes, many of them do not take into account a ton of issues drivers face on many routes and are simply not a good indicator of how well someone should do on that route. Some are the opposite and are too easy. But none of that is the point.

The whole idea of the system is to hold everyone to a very high standard, to get the most possible out of the drivers all the time. Period. How does not enter into it. If a driver chooses to work through lunch as the solution to looking better on paper, that is that drivers choice, and has nothing to do with the IE department. Nothing. Now, if a driver works to his fullest potential, safely and efficiently every day, and still looks bad on paper, who the hell cares? When the sup gets on car with him, his performance will not change one bit. So he gets a lock in ride, and afterward his performance does not change. Unless you are having a time study ride, when you are out there delivering there is no IE standing next to you. You are an adult and a highly compensated professional, you should take responsibility for your own decisions.

By the way, it has been my experience that most drivers who work through their lunch and break do not do so in order to look better for the IE department. They do so because they want to get home to their families that much sooner. In the old days, that was perfectly fine with UPS, including the IE department. It was the courts and the union that said we MUST force drivers to take a lunch.