Brown Tail

[MrFedEx]

Sabretech is a great example of an FAA-approved repair station that was the type of operation I described...non-union and full of new mechanics willing to work for less to build some experience. Sure, the blame was spread around. The FAA should have been more vigilant, as should have ValuJet, which still exists under a different name. Hopefully, they learned a lesson...probably not. Airlines are all about saving money, especially now. If they can outsource various "checks", they'll do it, even if the people doing the work aren't that good at it. One of the big criticisms of the FAA has been that inspectors get way too cozy with airlines and repair facilities they are supposed to be keeping a close eye on. There are a couple of airlines out there that still cut corners, and the FAA lets it happen.


In China, there is no FAA, and I'm assuming that work would be signed-off there, subject to FAA approval here. I'll check into that and get back to you.

You mentioned the DC10, which had design problems and maintenance problems which had nothing to do with design, and everything to do with shoddy maintenance. The most famous was the Chicago crash in 1979, where American Airlines (union) mechanics tried to save time by removing the engine/pylon assembly as a unit, instead of separately, as recommended by MD/Douglas. Stress cracks developed, the engine fell-off on take-off, and 279 people died. So, yes, union mechanics screw-up too, but not as often.

The DC10 was basically a good airplane that got an undeserved bad reputation.

 

[Livin the Dream?]

...

The Chinese are famous for cutting corners in the pursuit of a profit. It's much more culturally acceptable (and excusable) to try and pull a fast one even if it means a critical aircraft part failure that causes a crash. I've spent enough time there to know. They haven't figured out yet that there are some industries where producing a product of absolute quality is essential (such as the aircraft industry).

Every once in awhile, the Chinese government trots out a few corrupt businessmen and women, convicts them, executes them, and then trumpets the "fact" that the problem has been solved. Not so. For every melamine-lacing or lead paint applying manager who was shot, there are thousands of others still getting away with it. Anyone remember the tainted medication last year(made in China) that killed a bunch of people in this country?


A few years back, the FAA uncovered a rash of inferior aircraft parts that the Chinese were trying to market here as legitimate. If they had actually made it onto an aircraft, there would have been a lot of dead passengers and downed airplanes.

-p[;

As someone who has traveled to China extensively, and someone who works on a daily basis having parts made in China, I must take issue with your generalized comments.

I would be happy to discuss if you wish, or you can just call me names.

 

[MrFedEx]

As someone who has traveled to China extensively, and someone who works on a daily basis having parts made in China, I must take issue with your generalized comments.

I would be happy to discuss if you wish, or you can just call me names.

I've spent a lot of time in China. Are you familiar with the parts scam I mentioned, or the tainted medication scandal of last year? If you're having parts made for your Barbie collection from the Pearl Delta, there probably won't be any problems. But if you want to buy a highly specialized titanium part for your Boeing 767 so you can go check-out the new line of Ken dolls, would you trust them to manufacture it properly?

 

[Livin the Dream?]

I've spent a lot of time in China. Are you familiar with the parts scam I mentioned, or the tainted medication scandal of last year? If you're having parts made for your Barbie collection from the Pearl Delta, there probably won't be any problems. But if you want to buy a highly specialized titanium part for your Boeing 767 so you can go check-out the new line of Ken dolls, would you trust them to manufacture it properly?

Everyone on the planet with any interest in it is familiar with the lead paint, tainted drug, etc. stories. They are true.

To simply make a blanket statement "The Chinese products are crap, inferior" is not telling the entire story. The way a Chinese business is run, almost every aspect, would be completely alien to someone from the US on first glance.

It is not someone sitting in an office saying "we'll cheat here, here & here, make it for less, and screw 'em", it is a completely foreign concept of what quality is. Take their cars - the best quality car they make is on par with a 1984 Toyota; In 1984, it was the cream of the crop. In China, it is the best of the best. Elsewhere, is is dated, poor quality, crap. It is the expectations of what "top quality" is that is different, it is not intent.

I only have experience with Chinese manufacture of automobiles, automotive, and electromechanical parts. If I were to spec out a 30kw motor, 600v, aluminum alloy hub-motor, tell my contacts in China to design/build one, it would most probably be delivered to me and I would say "this is crap". I guarantee you, though, that my contact in China would feel it was the accomplishment of his career in quality. It is a culture thing, not an intent to make poor quality.

To correct this, I spec out what I need EXACTLY, what alloys to use, what tolerances are acceptable, every single specification. And the parts are made as well as they are made here.

Attached is one picture of an item I have manufactured. To have this made in the USA would cost me just over $16,000, and it would be delivered to me within 3 months. I have it made in China instead, to my exact specs - It costs me under $3,000, and I have it in my hands in less than 3 weeks. And it is exactly to spec.

You may also notice - it is not a Barbie doll.

 

[705red]

As someone who has traveled to China extensively, and someone who works on a daily basis having parts made in China, I must take issue with your generalized comments.

I would be happy to discuss if you wish, or you can just call me names.

This explains a lot! Have you had your blood checked for lead poisoning?

 

[Livin the Dream?]

I'll work on that

 

[MrFedEx]

I'll work on that

China is getting there very quickly in terms of quality control. I have no doubt that the parts you're getting are of excellent quality. But there are plenty of marginal operators out there, and the Chinese government looks the other way...for now. A lot of their products are absolutely excellent.

My point was that they need to be careful about more complex parts like those on an aircraft. I'm sure there are companies there that go by the book and could make quality components with some US oversight. Many critical smaller aircraft parts are produced by small companies in this country, but they have the specialized knowledge, equipment, and experience to do it right.

Aircraft maintenance is a similar issue. Where is the experienced workforce in China that can do the work? They are still in-training, and setting-up shop there is a two-edged sword. Yes, it will save money, and also help build the Chinese aircraft repair industry infrastructure. But it will out-source high-wage US jobs as well, and union aircraft mechanics do know how to do it correctly already.

No more Ken and Barbie comments. The Chinese do a good job at making them too.

 

[ups767mech]

This weekend we got aircraft N131UP back from heavy check. 1st log book entry ; 18 degrees of right turn required to make aircraft taxi straight. Kind of hard to land with one hand on the yoke and one on the tiller applying 18 degrees of turn. Who was working the throttles?

Quality 15 dollar an hour maintenance. Also a big thank you to the crew (probably management) for accepting the aircraft and flying in an unsafe condition. The FAA is investigating.

 

[speeddemon]

The Chinese are world famous for their airline safety records, which are abysmal. They are also great at producing, using, and selling counterfeit aircraft parts, many of which need a metallurgist to identify as fakes. It's bad enough to have pirated DVD's and fake watches, but I don't want to fly in anything built or maintained in China.

If you were going to take a 10,000 mile overseas flight, would you like your aircraft mechanic to be an experienced union member, or some guy making $3.00 per hour who was a farmer 2 years ago?

Depends what type of farmer he was.......

 

[airbusfxr]

The bottom line is that mechanics havent had a raise since 2005, no contract enhancements, nothing but layoffs and farmouts. The company made huge profits in 06 and 07, grade 20's taking checks that could make Chaney blush. Our union leaders cannot help us, and it looks like they are just waiting till the next elections so they can throw in the towel. My payback check is already 20k and I rather wait 4 more years and have a 40k check to get a fair contract. The MOU with the IPA should be out soon and we shall see what the company has in store for the airline. Like a couple of rampers see it, I will have to just sleep in my truck and collect a huge paycheck till retirement time. I understand UPSCO is a complicated operation and most UPS people see the Airline as an operations that runs by magic bringing in the majority of the profit UPS shares with it managers and BOD and shareowners. Happy Memorial Day to all.

 

[MrFedEx]

This weekend we got aircraft N131UP back from heavy check. 1st log book entry ; 18 degrees of right turn required to make aircraft taxi straight. Kind of hard to land with one hand on the yoke and one on the tiller applying 18 degrees of turn. Who was working the throttles?

Quality 15 dollar an hour maintenance. Also a big thank you to the crew (probably management) for accepting the aircraft and flying in an unsafe condition. The FAA is investigating.

You clearly understand what's going on, unlike others who have commented on this topic. When it comes to aircraft, you don't screw around, you don't cut corners, and you don't have marginally qualified mechanics do your work. You get what you pay for, and AC MX is no exception. Thanks for being smart and unafraid to speak out.

 

[Livin the Dream?]

You clearly understand what's going on, unlike others who have commented on this topic. When it comes to aircraft, you don't screw around, you don't cut corners, and you don't have marginally qualified mechanics do your work. You get what you pay for, and AC MX is no exception. Thanks for being smart and unafraid to speak out.

I am hoping that, if I ever begin posting here calling all people that agree with me smart, and those that disagree with me stupid, that someone will take me to task for it.



"You have a choice - You can read the writing on the wall, or ignore it & run into the wall"

 

[MrFedEx]

I am hoping that, if I ever begin posting here calling all people that agree with me smart, and those that disagree with me stupid, that someone will take me to task for it.

I'm not calling you or anyone else stupid by commenting that someone who actually is an aircraft mechanic is making some intelligent comments on the subject. And the sky isn't blue here today, it's gray. Please don't mis-charcterize what I'm saying.


"You have a choice - You can read the writing on the wall, or ignore it & run into the wall"