Gov healthcare

diesel96

Well-Known Member
http://www.afcm.org/healthcareprinciples.html


"The strongest advocates of medical socialism want Americans to believe that what we have today is a free-market health care system based on principles of laissez-faire capitalism, and that we need to replace it. What we actually have, of course, is an essentially fascist system of highly complex and government-financed health care manipulated by interest groups with political pull. America's health insurance and medical care system is an overregulated, bureaucratic monster that is the creation of government. It is in need of major reform, and the status quo should not be defended. But reform of the system must not take the form of more of the government poison that has been killing it."

This is the typical message to spread fear and panic....key words strategically placed to scare the hell out of people. All easily influenced people read out of this mumble-jumble :blahblah::blahblah: is socialism-fascist overregulated bureaucratic monster the Government.



images
If she's getting under Republican skin, she must be doing an effective job....when all else fails, select demonizing targets and declare the enemy....Reminds me of Dorothy, the Scarecrow, and Tin man walking thru the forest clutching of fear, reciting.... Pelosi-Barney-and Ried...oh my!
 

av8torntn

Well-Known Member
If you take the position that the State can only provide for the common defense (socialism IMO) then you just opened the door IMO for the otherside to argue the State's position on/in other areas (the other socialism) language of the Constitution be damned!

JM"radical"O of course!
:happy-very:


Not sure why that was directed at me since I have defended subcontracting with the military on these very boards. (Blackwater, KBR, etc.) I have even posted that our Constitution allows for our government to use the free market for common defense with letters of marque and reprisal.

Guess I'm just an easy target.

I still feel our Constitution was put in place to limit government in order to protect our freedoms. I believe all these people who fear the freedom to seek their own healthcare or the freedom to spend their wealth the way they wish or purchase the transportation they wish are enemies of the Constitution. I believe our Constitution should protect us from a national mandate which forces health insurance on us.

Why must we continue to ignore?

"The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people."

Seems very clear.
 

av8torntn

Well-Known Member
This is the typical message to spread fear and panic....key words strategically placed to scare the hell out of people. All easily influenced people read out of this mumble-jumble :blahblah::blahblah: is socialism-fascist overregulated bureaucratic monster the Government.



images
If she's getting under Republican skin, she must be doing an effective job....when all else fails, select demonizing targets and declare the enemy....Reminds me of Dorothy, the Scarecrow, and Tin man walking thru the forest clutching of fear, reciting.... Pelosi-Barney-and Ried...oh my!


This is truly funny. I am purposely using the exact same tactics as you did with Bush and Chaney among others. Now you have a problem with it.

This is much like the way Pelosi cheered the anti war demonstrators but now demonize and attack those that protest the anti freedom Congress.

Anyhow I have pointed out many times how I think our current system is over regulated and how I thought the removal of regulations would benefit the entire group. You guys have created the problem and now you think more of the same will somehow solve the very problems you helped to create. That is insanity. We know your way does not work so let's all get together and try freedom for a change.
 

moreluck

golden ticket member
B.O. keeps saying that 2/3 of the healthcare program will be paid by eliminating the waste that exists already.

So, if they know there is waste, why didn't they do away with it back in Jan. instead of waiting for a project to come along. Watching waste happen is incredulous to me!!!
 

1989

Well-Known Member
B.O. keeps saying that 2/3 of the healthcare program will be paid by eliminating the waste that exists already.

So, if they know there is waste, why didn't they do away with it back in Jan. instead of waiting for a project to come along. Watching waste happen is incredulous to me!!!


How about cutting that waste and making all health insurers mutual companies. That way they will work for their customers.
 

klein

Für Meno :)
B.O. keeps saying that 2/3 of the healthcare program will be paid by eliminating the waste that exists already.

So, if they know there is waste, why didn't they do away with it back in Jan. instead of waiting for a project to come along. Watching waste happen is incredulous to me!!!

What can I say to that ?
You always been a wasteful society. We have been recylcling for years, with deposits of 10 cents to 30 cents, on every beverage container we buy, including milk cartons and jugs, fruitboxes, beer/wine bottles, boxes etc.
Even auto batteries have $5.00 deposit on them.
We also have bluebags or blue boxes for household garbage collection, where we throw plastics, tin cans, papers/flyers, glass jars, etc, into them.

But, on your medical situation the adminstration costs come to mind, so does your medical equipment.

I looked into that. Yes, you have many more MRI's and other equiptment then here up north, per capita.
But, we use ours more. (20 hrs out of a day, you probably 8 hrs in a day).

To make that more clearly, it would be like UPS in the States, delivering all their packages by 12 noon, with double the Drivers, and double the trucks.
Where else here, we would only do "emergency" (express) in the morning, and the rest later in the day.
 

island1fox

Well-Known Member
Klein,
We have already been over this territory -----Please ---LA-LA land --Government Social Programs are not "FREE" U.S. or Canada.
To my American Partners --if we can leave the happy with what they have Canadians out of this for the moment------Remember about four to five months age when the country was not focused on the health care subject --but rather how we were going to "save" the car companies.
Obama stated very clearly --that companies such as G.M. can no longer afford to pay the high cost of health care.. When their is a "public " OPTION--we will see more and more companies -----saying --we cannot afford private healthcare --but do not worry --the public one is "FREE"
WHEN WE ARE FINALLY LEFT WITH ONE MASSIVE OUT OF CONTROL GOVERNMENT MESS -----THERE WILL BE NO CHOICE ----ONLY TO BELIEVE THAT THE FIRST TIME IN HISTORY ---GOVERNMENT CAN REDUCE COST AND RUN ANYTHING EFFECTIVELY ??????
P.S. To all this is not a secret -Government Health care
----Canada ----England --France --etc etc------are all well on their way to bankrupcy ------but of course we should follow them down the same road. We still have time to wake up--Obama has a chance to be a real HERO ----REFORM OUR PRIVATE SECTOR ---IT NEEDS REGULATION ---MUST INSURE ALL --STATE TO STATE COMPETITION ----AND JUST AS IT IS NOW --THE GOV TAKES CARE OF THE DESTITUTE ---REFORM --YES -YES YES --PUBLIC -NO ! NO ! NO !
Also Tort lawyers must be regulated to drive costs down ---Barack --I know they gave you alot of money for your campaign ----but this is the time to stand up --for real CHANGE !!!!!:wink2:
 

klein

Für Meno :)
Klein,
We have already been over this territory -----Please ---LA-LA land --Government Social Programs are not "FREE" U.S. or Canada.
To my American Partners --if we can leave the happy with what they have Canadians out of this for the moment------Remember about four to five months age when the country was not focused on the health care subject --but rather how we were going to "save" the car companies.
Obama stated very clearly --that companies such as G.M. can no longer afford to pay the high cost of health care.. When their is a "public " OPTION--we will see more and more companies -----saying --we cannot afford private healthcare --but do not worry --the public one is "FREE"
WHEN WE ARE FINALLY LEFT WITH ONE MASSIVE OUT OF CONTROL GOVERNMENT MESS -----THERE WILL BE NO CHOICE ----ONLY TO BELIEVE THAT THE FIRST TIME IN HISTORY ---GOVERNMENT CAN REDUCE COST AND RUN ANYTHING EFFECTIVELY ??????
P.S. To all this is not a secret -Government Health care
----Canada ----England --France --etc etc------are all well on their way to bankrupcy ------but of course we should follow them down the same road. We still have time to wake up--Obama has a chance to be a real HERO ----REFORM OUR PRIVATE SECTOR ---IT NEEDS REGULATION ---MUST INSURE ALL --STATE TO STATE COMPETITION ----AND JUST AS IT IS NOW --THE GOV TAKES CARE OF THE DESTITUTE ---REFORM --YES -YES YES --PUBLIC -NO ! NO ! NO !
Also Tort lawyers must be regulated to drive costs down ---Barack --I know they gave you alot of money for your campaign ----but this is the time to stand up --for real CHANGE !!!!!:wink2:

These countries you mentioned (england, france, Canada, etc) aren't going healthcare bankrupt, they have rising healthcare costs. Thats a difference.
Come down to our, (rest of the world), levels of spending first, because your system is out of control :



OECD Health Data 2009
How Does Canada Compare

Total health spending accounted for 10.1% of GDP in
Canada in 2007, more than one percentage point
higher than the average of 8.9% in OECD countries. Health spending as a share of GDP is lower in

Canada than in the United States (which spent 16.0% of its GDP on health in 2007) and in a number of European countries such as France (11.0%), Switzerland (10.8%), Germany (10.4%) and Belgium (10.2%).

Canada also ranks above the OECD average in terms of total health spending per capita, with spending of 3895 USD in 2007 (adjusted for purchasing power parity), compared with an OECD average of 2964 USD.


Health spending per capita in
Canada remains nonetheless much lower than in the United States (which

spent 7290 USD per capita in 2007) and in Norway, Switzerland and Luxembourg.


No need to remind you that all these other countries have 100% healthcare coverage for all thier citizens.
 
Last edited:

tieguy

Banned
These countries you mentioned (england, france, Canada, etc) aren't going healthcare bankrupt, they have rising healthcare costs. Thats a difference.
Come down to our, (rest of the world), levels of spending first, because your system is out of control :



OECD Health Data 2009
How Does Canada Compare

Total health spending accounted for 10.1% of GDP in
Canada in 2007, more than one percentage point
higher than the average of 8.9% in OECD countries. Health spending as a share of GDP is lower in

Canada than in the United States (which spent 16.0% of its GDP on health in 2007) and in a number of European countries such as France (11.0%), Switzerland (10.8%), Germany (10.4%) and Belgium (10.2%).

Canada also ranks above the OECD average in terms of total health spending per capita, with spending of 3895 USD in 2007 (adjusted for purchasing power parity), compared with an OECD average of 2964 USD.


Health spending per capita in
Canada remains nonetheless much lower than in the United States (which

spent 7290 USD per capita in 2007) and in Norway, Switzerland and Luxembourg.



No need to remind you that all these other countries have 100% healthcare coverage for all thier citizens.

Define 100 percent healthcare coverage.
 

klein

Für Meno :)
Define 100 percent healthcare coverage.

Everyone gets a healthcare card, that is a legal resident of that country.
They can go to any medical clinic, see any doctor with no costs involved.
It does not include medication (most docs have free sample meds from drug companies that they will give away for those that don't have a medication plan) Medication in hospitals is always free , though.

In Germany, where I lived and worked as well. Medication is paid for.
You pay by perscription, about $5.00. Doesn't matter what kind of drug or how expensive it may be.
We are not so lucky in Canada. But we pay less. (personal costs), thats differnet then GDP costs.
In Germany back in the 80's.. over $200 for healthbenefits was deducted from your monthly paycheck.
How much is is now, I do not know. Think it goes by percentage of earnings.
In Canada , nothing gets deducted, it's free, but medication isn't, unless hospitialized. But, there are grants for the chronicle ill, that need meds on a daily basis for the rest of thier lives (aids, cancer, etc).

At UPS, and most other companies we work for in Canada, medication insurance is paid by the employer . Where we only need to pay 10% per perscription.

Otherwise, like you in the states, if your not insured for medication, sign up for Blue Cross and pay monthly fees.
 

1989

Well-Known Member
Everyone gets a healthcare card, that is a legal resident of that country.
They can go to any medical clinic, see any doctor with no costs involved.
It does not include medication (most docs have free sample meds from drug companies that they will give away for those that don't have a medication plan) Medication in hospitals is always free , though.

In Germany, where I lived and worked as well. Medication is paid for.
You pay by perscription, about $5.00. Doesn't matter what kind of drug or how expensive it may be.
We are not so lucky in Canada. But we pay less. (personal costs), thats differnet then GDP costs.
In Germany back in the 80's.. over $200 for healthbenefits was deducted from your monthly paycheck.
How much is is now, I do not know. Think it goes by percentage of earnings.
In Canada , nothing gets deducted, it's free, but medication isn't, unless hospitialized. But, there are grants for the chronicle ill, that need meds on a daily basis for the rest of thier lives (aids, cancer, etc).

At UPS, and most other companies we work for in Canada, medication insurance is paid by the employer . Where we only need to pay 10% per perscription.

Otherwise, like you in the states, if your not insured for medication, sign up for Blue Cross and pay monthly fees.


$2400 a year for healthcare would more than triple what I pay out of pocket every year now with 4 kids and a wife with lupus.
 

klein

Für Meno :)
$2400 a year for healthcare would more than triple what I pay out of pocket every year now with 4 kids and a wife with lupus.

Not really, because UPS is paying about $600 a month for your insurance.
You would under the german system get about $400 extra per month pay towards you.
 

island1fox

Well-Known Member
kLEIN,
1The U.S. spends the most on healthcare
2.The U.S. spends the most on Education
3.The U.S. spends the most on military and defense
4.The U.S. spends the most on foreign aid
5. The U.S. spends the most on space travel
etc etc etc. Whats the point ?

We spend the most on healthcare ----amazing that when world leaders are really sick ----they go to Canada -----???? No they come to the U.S. !!!


-----THE U.S IS THE SOLE SUPERPOWER !!!!
I know Arrogant again ------ but the truth is the truth !!!!
 

klein

Für Meno :)
kLEIN,
1The U.S. spends the most on healthcare
2.The U.S. spends the most on Education
3.The U.S. spends the most on military and defense
4.The U.S. spends the most on foreign aid
5. The U.S. spends the most on space travel
etc etc etc. Whats the point ?

We spend the most on healthcare ----amazing that when world leaders are really sick ----they go to Canada -----???? No they come to the U.S. !!!


-----THE U.S IS THE SOLE SUPERPOWER !!!!
I know Arrogant again ------ but the truth is the truth !!!!

Yes, spend , spend, spend, and no results.
Your education is lower then most Industrial countries.
Your healthcare is proven not to get the results for the money spent.
Foreign aid by GDP, don't think thats true, either.

Spacetravel and Military I give you that, though.
The shuttles have been scratched now, hopefully you come up with something new, or you'll be space travelling with the japs, russians, or chinese.

And world leaders ? Yes, the ones from the desert or Russia.., can't think of of the Queen of England or Prime Minister of Canada, or the Bundeskanzler from Germany ever going to the US for healthcare.
 

wkmac

Well-Known Member
Not sure why that was directed at me since I have defended subcontracting with the military on these very boards. (Blackwater, KBR, etc.) I have even posted that our Constitution allows for our government to use the free market for common defense with letters of marque and reprisal.

Guess I'm just an easy target.

You are an easy target!
:wink2:

Free market answer to say Iraq would not be for the gov't to subcontract because the truth is, Saddam's only threat to the US if you even want to call it that was his threats and attempts of trading oil for Euro's instead of dollars which threatened the supremacy of the dollar and it's global reserve currency status. Between himself, Osama, Chavez and Iran who a few years back out of nowhere became the next subject matter of invasion (wonder why) along with the help of a few silent partners, they may have the last laugh. Other than that, Saddam's only threat was what we over the years had given him and it's known now that he either used it up or it was uncovered in the post Gulf War era before 2003'. He even admitted and the facts seem to support that his talk was all BS and that he was playing a game of political chicken and got called on his bluff. A paranoid, murderous idiot to his own, he was that but I see no threat in him to the United States.

Remove this from the table and it leaves one other reason to invade and that was over oil at the pleasure of the Saudis, their pleasure of course (notice the price in the 1980's when another war in the region was happening?) and in a larger picture of Caspian Basin oil interests. Oh that in itself is an interesting and very worthy study in geo/economic politics especially the Caspian Sea drilling turf contracts.

Being that these were the real purpose of the war then the true free market approach would have been for all those various business interests to pay and hire for themselves the Blackwaters, KBRs, etc. by raising capital through investors or raising the costs of their products and forcing the consumers of such to pay for it all. Neither gov't nor taxpayer would have any stake in the whole matter and at the same time, those same businesses also would not recieve any special treatment, subsidy or tax advantage over any other company or individual person so there the economic playing field would be level for all. No one company by political advantage would be able to bury a burden or cost on the taxpayer and therefore the potential for the best allocation of resources would take place.

Truth is, no war would take place because the return on investment isn't worth the allocation of capital and resources. Free markets would force both sides to negocitate a workable fair agreement without force of fraud. I wonder how many countries agree to inequitable contracts with US business interests because these same interests have the US taxapayer paying "Tough Tony" to come in as the shake down guy to get them to play US interest ball. I don't see that kind of action at all in what the founding fathers had in mind in regards to self defense. If anything, it sounds more like King George, you know, the guy they fought against to make this country happen!

Why must we continue to ignore?

"The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people."

Read Article 6 of the US Constitution:

This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding.

There's your achilles heel and the reason I've said most often, "GO READ TREATY LAW!"

In 1919' an international organization formed out of the Versailles Treaty known as the International Labor Organization and in 1934' the United States became an official member. ILO is even codified under Title 22 USC Chapter 7, sec. 271 as an official recognized international body to which we have binding international agreements. While you are at the link, look over the many other bodies listed we have other agreements with and the considering Art. 6 above maybe a tinkling of why maybe the constitution you so love seems to get ignored all the time?
:wink2:

Nationalized Healthcare? :surprised:

How did we get social security when it seems so contary to the organic constitution? Hmmmmm! ILO in 1934', Social Security Act in 1935' but did you know that this act passed in August of 1935' was the 2nd version as the first was overturned by SCOTUS in May of 1935'? You see gov't likes to float and test ideas so in 1934' our good gov't passed a social security act over those workers only who engaged in Interstate transportation, there's the commerce clause again, and in the case of Railroad Retirement Board v Alton R. Co. 295 U.S. 330, 368, 55 S.Ct. 758, 771 (1935). The court said the following in it's opinion.

"The catalogue of means and actions which might be imposed upon an employer in any business, tending to the satisfaction and comfort of his employees, seems endless. Provision for free medical attendance and nursing, for clothing, for food, for housing, for the education of children, and a hundred other matters might with equal propriety be proposed as tending to relieve the employee of mental strain and worry. Can it fairly be said that the power of Congress to regulate interstate commerce extends to the prescription of any or all of these things? Is it not apparent that they are really and essentially related solely to the social welfare of the worker, and therefore remote from any regulation of commerce as such? We think the answer is plain. These matters obviously lie outside the orbit of congressional power."
They learned and came back 3 months later with what we have today and when it was tested at SCOTUS in Charles C. Steward Machine Co. v Davis 301 U.S. 548, 57 S.Ct. 883 (1937) the court in upholding the SSA said the following:

The proceeds of the excise when collected are paid into the Treasury at Washington, and thereafter are subject to appropriation like public moneys generally. Cincinnati Soap Co.301 U.S. 308, 57 S.Ct. 764, 81 L.Ed. ___, May 3, 1937

You see, in the original act the gov't argued that SS was an insurance plan if you will and the high court correctly ruled that Congress had no authority. In Steward Machine and also in another case at the time Helvering v. Davis, the gov't argued that SS was an excise tax on employment and that this tax would go into the general treasury and it was to Congress how the monies would then be appropiated. Congress clearly has taxing authority under Art. 1 Sec 8 and therefore SCOTUS ruled in the gov't favor. This is also why there is no seperate individual trust funds set up because to do so would void the conditions of Steward Machine and open the gov't up to a claim. Social Security is a budget item and is appropiated funds for it's functioning purposes.

Now we have article 22 of the United Nations Declaration of Human Rights of which we are a signatory that sez:

"Everyone, as a member of society, has the right to social security and is entitled to realization, through national effort and international co­operation and in accordance with the organization and resources of each State, of the economic, social and cultural rights indispensable for his dignity and the free development of his personality."

SS therefore is most likely going nowhere and Washington DC knows it. Why the lesson on Social Security when the issue is healthcare?

What's out there in treaty land that you aren't aware but in fact voids your constitution and gives full jurisdictional powers to Washington to do this. Remember, we've had single payer for 65 year plus folks for a long time so single payer is settled. Treaty law again?
:surprised::wink2:

BTW:Want to see how important the ILO was to the passage of Social Security. From the book, "The Making of the New Deal, The Insiders Speak"
 
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