wkmac
Well-Known Member
You can't ignore this type of thinking in regards to this area of the world. Where it really becomes dangerous is when it leads to actions at an attempt to self fulfill.
Syria
- Thread starter 804brown
- Start date
You can't ignore this type of thinking in regards to this area of the world. Where it really becomes dangerous is when it leads to actions at an attempt to self fulfill.
soberups
Pees in the brown Koolaid
I personally agree with the way Obama is handling this issue.
We shouldnt put boots on the ground or become directly involved in the Syrian civil war, but we also shouldnt stand idly by and allow nerve gas to be used on civilians in direct violation of international law and the laws of warfare. 189 nations have signed a treaty outlawing their use and at some point somebody needs to be willing to step up and kick some ass if those laws are violated. Since we have an ample supply of Tomahawk cruise missiles that basically allow us to sit back and pummel an enemy from long range without placing troops or pilots at risk, that somebody is probably us. The fact that Assad is now apparently willing to turn his chemical arsenal over to the Russians is one of the best outcomes that could be hoped for, and is almost certainly due to Obama's stated willingess to use force.
We shouldnt put boots on the ground or become directly involved in the Syrian civil war, but we also shouldnt stand idly by and allow nerve gas to be used on civilians in direct violation of international law and the laws of warfare. 189 nations have signed a treaty outlawing their use and at some point somebody needs to be willing to step up and kick some ass if those laws are violated. Since we have an ample supply of Tomahawk cruise missiles that basically allow us to sit back and pummel an enemy from long range without placing troops or pilots at risk, that somebody is probably us. The fact that Assad is now apparently willing to turn his chemical arsenal over to the Russians is one of the best outcomes that could be hoped for, and is almost certainly due to Obama's stated willingess to use force.
soberups
Pees in the brown Koolaid
What a load of crap.
The only reason Putin is stepping up and offering to take control of Syria's chemical arsenal is because Assad is asking him to.
The only reason Assad is asking him to...is because he doesnt want to get hammered with Tomahawk cruise missiles.
I choose to judge diplomacy by its outcome. If the outcome of this situation is that the Assad regime surrenders its chemical weapons without a shot being fired by us, then I call that a success. Its a helluva lot better than what the idiot Bush accomplished...tens of thousands dead and billions wasted on a needless invasion of Iraq.
The only reason Putin is stepping up and offering to take control of Syria's chemical arsenal is because Assad is asking him to.
The only reason Assad is asking him to...is because he doesnt want to get hammered with Tomahawk cruise missiles.
I choose to judge diplomacy by its outcome. If the outcome of this situation is that the Assad regime surrenders its chemical weapons without a shot being fired by us, then I call that a success. Its a helluva lot better than what the idiot Bush accomplished...tens of thousands dead and billions wasted on a needless invasion of Iraq.
soberups
Pees in the brown Koolaid
Wow. Diplomacy. Who woulda think.
Babagounj
Strength through joy
Gaining control over any weapon stocks within a war torn country is just show boating .
Until the region is stable nobody will officially be doing anything .
The US of A is the only place that has the plants & people with the knowledge to properly get rid of this stuff .
So either we transport it over here or build plants in Syria .
We are talking years before the first drop is rendered useless .
Until the region is stable nobody will officially be doing anything .
The US of A is the only place that has the plants & people with the knowledge to properly get rid of this stuff .
So either we transport it over here or build plants in Syria .
We are talking years before the first drop is rendered useless .
soberups
Pees in the brown Koolaid
We dont need to take responsibility for destroying it. We can let the Russians transport it back for destruction in their country, using the plants that we helped them build for that purpose. Or we can let the UN deal with them. Our role was simply to motivate Assad to give the damn things up, by any means necessary.
Babagounj
Strength through joy
[h=1]U.S. military confirms rebels had sarin[/h] [h=2]Classified document shows deadly weapon found in home of arrested Islamists[/h]The U.S. military confirms that sarin was confiscated earlier this year from members of the Jabhat al-Nusra Front, the most influential of the rebel Islamists fighting in Syria.
The document says sarin from al-Qaida in Iraq made its way into Turkey and that while some was seized, more could have been used in an attack last March on civilians and Syrian military soldiers in Aleppo.
The document, classified Secret/Noforn – “Not for foreign distribution” – came from the U.S. intelligence community’s National Ground Intelligence Center, or NGIC, and was made available to WND Tuesday.
It revealed that AQI had produced a “bench-scale” form of sarin in Iraq and then transferred it to Turkey.
The document says sarin from al-Qaida in Iraq made its way into Turkey and that while some was seized, more could have been used in an attack last March on civilians and Syrian military soldiers in Aleppo.
The document, classified Secret/Noforn – “Not for foreign distribution” – came from the U.S. intelligence community’s National Ground Intelligence Center, or NGIC, and was made available to WND Tuesday.
It revealed that AQI had produced a “bench-scale” form of sarin in Iraq and then transferred it to Turkey.
texan
Well-Known Member
Russia’s ‘carrier-killer’ Moskva enters Mediterranean
Russia’s Moskva missile cruiser, dubbed a “carrier-killer” by NATO, has passed through the Straits of Gibraltar
and is now heading toward the eastern Mediterranean to assume command of the Russian naval force there.
Russia’s ‘carrier-killer’ Moskva enters Mediterranean — RT News
Russia’s Moskva missile cruiser, dubbed a “carrier-killer” by NATO, has passed through the Straits of Gibraltar
and is now heading toward the eastern Mediterranean to assume command of the Russian naval force there.
Russia’s ‘carrier-killer’ Moskva enters Mediterranean — RT News
And I call that BS. The current idiot in the WH got real lucky when Putin offered to help. Polls show that most Americans disagree with him (and you) about using any kind of military force in Syria.
Lineandinitial
Legio patria nostra
I find it incredible that some of you feel this was some kind of well thought out strategy by Obama.
The warmonger was itching to bomb the hell out of Syria. Then his own country turned against him, and he was left standing there with his mouth open saying "Uhh, uhh, uhh.....". Obama has to be on his knees thanking Allah that Putin stepped in to save his ass.
And anyone who believes this is about "Children being gassed in the streets" is delusional. Obama doesn't give a rats turd about children getting gassed in the street. I do love how he used that phrase several times in his speech to get the kool-aid drinkers support tho.
Someone often says "Follow the money".
The warmonger was itching to bomb the hell out of Syria. Then his own country turned against him, and he was left standing there with his mouth open saying "Uhh, uhh, uhh.....". Obama has to be on his knees thanking Allah that Putin stepped in to save his ass.
And anyone who believes this is about "Children being gassed in the streets" is delusional. Obama doesn't give a rats turd about children getting gassed in the street. I do love how he used that phrase several times in his speech to get the kool-aid drinkers support tho.
Someone often says "Follow the money".
wkmac
Well-Known Member
Syria along with all the other countries we've laid waste to either directly or indirectly have been on the chopping block since the early 90's. Among others, Wesley Clark talks about this in a conversation he had with Paul Wolfowitz who spoke outright about bringing down all these states we've seen fall as a result of 9/11. This is commonly known as the Wolfowitz doctrine. Clark has now recounted that conversation as well as days after 9/11 being shown documents in the Pentagon that clearly aligned with the Wolfowitz doctrine. Clark's infamous Commonwealth Club speech in 2007' being when this may all have been first exposed on a larger audience by Clark himself.
Ray McGovern, former CIA analysis and very close to Poppy Bush in his administration has spoken about Wolfowitz and his ideological friends as being seen by Poppy and company as crazy and thus guess who screamed the loudest when Bush and then General Powell along with Swartzkoph said no to going into Baghdad?
Put did Wolfowitz and friends tip their hand, expose what may be to come? Some say the works of Project for a New American Century or read clearly, "Project of America's Next 100 Years" expose what the ultimate game plan was in regards to the American people.
In May 2001' Wolfowitz gave the commencement speech at West Point and in that speech are some chilling words when played against the backdrop of who he is, what his legacy is and what would occur just 4 months later.
Wolfowitz chilling speech - YouTube
And now here we are on the cusp of potential invasion of another country, ironically in the Middle East again and this time it's not even a republican administration continuing the Wolfowitz doctrine.
soberups
Pees in the brown Koolaid
1. Like us, the Russians are signatory to the UN convention on Chemical Weapons.
2. Like us, the Russians have renounced the use and posession of chemical weapons.
3. Like us, the Russians have spent billions of dollars on factories and equipment to destroy their chemical weapons stockpiles, and they have accounted for those stockpiles and allowed UN inspectors to audit them.
4. Like us, they are behind schedule on their commitment to destroy their stockpile, but this is due to the same financial, technical and enviornmental issues that we are facing. They have nukes...they dont need chemical weapons and it is in their best interests as well as ours to live in a world without them.
The bottom line is that the Russians dont want their ally/client state using chemical weapons any more than we do, and if the threat of getting hammered with cruise missiles has motivated Assad to turn them over then its a helluva lot better than the alternative. If the Russians agree to take control of them and Assad holds a few back and winds up using them again, its the Russians and not us who will wind up looking like idiots. At that point...we will at least be able to say that we gave diplomacy a chance before unleashing the Tomahawks.
wkmac
Well-Known Member
And what about our client state Israel? We can't have it both ways and yet that is in some respects what we are trying to get. Funny how we speak of Syria as bad for having deadly nerve agents but ANY STATE IMO who has such weapons are suspect of being in that class. Yet we have those same things too and as Sober rightly pointed out, we are behind in eliminating them and if one looks honestly, one can see some serious foot dragging towards those ends.
Russia is by no means a saint but then neither are we.
soberups
Pees in the brown Koolaid
Israel has never used chemical or nuclear weapons, even during the opening days of the Yom Kippur war when they were getting their asses kicked by the Syrians in the Golan Heights and their population centers were in danger of being overrun by Syrian armored columns. Im not saying the Israelis are saints, but they do go to great lengths to minimize civilian casualties during military operations, up to the point of putting their own pilots at risk by warning civilians to flee ahead of time in areas about to be bombed. Israel signed and has honored its peace treaties with Egypt and Jordan, and has made numerous overtures to the Syrian government that have been rejected. While reasonable people can certainly disagree with Israel's treatment of the Palestinians, it is intellectually dishonest to compare the humanitarian policies of Israel to those of the Syrian regime.
And as far as chemical weapons go....yes we are behind on our commitment to destroy our own chemical weapon stockpiles (as are the Russians), but this is solely due to enviornmental and technical difficulties. The key issue here is transparency. We have signed the treaty, we have inventoried and declared our stockpile to the UN, and we are working in good faith to eliminate it. The same holds true for the Russians. The reality is that chemical weapons are universally reviled by the military, they are dirty and dangerous weapons that pose almost as much risk to those deploying them as they do to their intended targets. This is the reason why chemical weapons were never used on the battlefield during WWII even though both sides posessed huge stockpiles of them. In the modern era, as nations with vast arsenals of precision-guided nuclear weapons at our disposal, neither we or the Russians have any need for chemical weapons and it is both of our nations best interests to see that the Syrian regime is never able to use them again.
soberups
Pees in the brown Koolaid
It is also worth pointing out that the United States stopped producing chemical weapons in 1969, and the remaining stockpile that awaits destruction consists of obsolete, non-functioning and non-deployable artillery and mortar shells. Many of them are corroded and leaking. They are no longer usable "weapons", they are nothing but highly toxic hazardous waste.
oldngray
nowhere special
Assad piles on demands amid chemical weapons talks between Kerry, Russian counterpart | Fox News
Looks like this plan is already falling apart.
Looks like this plan is already falling apart.
soberups
Pees in the brown Koolaid
No, it is in its early stages and both sides are negotiating. Assad can certainly make whatever "demands" he wants to, and we can certainly reject those demands if they are unreasonable. We have plenty of Tomahawks, they have already been programmed with targets, we can launch them whenever the hell we feel like it, and there isnt a damn thing Assad can do to stop them. This isnt some made-for-TV drama that lasts 90 minutes with commercials and then comes to a nice neat ending precisely at 10:30; its diplomacy, which means its slow and messy and complicated and it isnt going to come to a successful conclusion in the time frame that the average short-attention-span American expects.
