About Those Planes

Cactus

Just telling it like it is
If UPS can make money and be a cash-flow machine paying Teamster wages, why can't FedEx? Fail to understand this logic, boys and girls. Last time I looked, UPS is making lots of money.

They probably could but it's gonna take a union to get there.

But in the meantime, crybaby Fred says he's got no money for wage increases and many of the managers wearing rose colored glasses buy this BS with no problem.
 

MrFedEx

Engorged Member
If UPS can make money and be a cash-flow machine paying Teamster wages, why can't FedEx? Fail to understand this logic, boys and girls. Last time I looked, UPS is making lots of money.

What she said. FedEx doesn't need to match UPS dollar for dollar but they need to be close. UPS is a better-managed company that doesn't waste it's money. Our huge fleet of executive jets immediately comes to mind as an example. UPS doesn't have a single one. This last peak, we had a potluck while managment had a posh catered spread that they tried to hide. I'm guessing that's what went on in the rest of the company too. And there's plenty more. UPS practices what they preach, FedEx says, do as I say, not as I do. Fred is a greedy miser and a freaking hypocrite of the highest order.
 

bbsam

Moderator
Staff member
If UPS can make money and be a cash-flow machine paying Teamster wages, why can't FedEx? Fail to understand this logic, boys and girls. Last time I looked, UPS is making lots of money.
Because as another thread on BC points out the purpose of of a business entity in a free market society is to make money. It is not to provide a living for it's workers, or health care, or any other perk. So if Fedex deems union scale pay and benefits more costly than they care to pay and they are satisfied with the resulting net income, why on earth should they pay more?
 

Broke

Well-Known Member
If you'll go through the recent posts about the RLA you'll see my logic. We have a different business model, have higher costs per pkg while having much less volume than they do. That allows UPS to pay very good wages while still turning a good profit. Look at the total revenue taken in by UPS compared to FedEx. If we did everything just like they do then yes, FedEx could pay much more. But we are primarily an overnight service using planes, they aren't. Higher costs, lower volume, smaller profit. Two delivery companies with very different ways of doing things. And for saying this I will now be howled at, most likely, for just pointing out the truth.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Fedex have a total revenue of about 38 billion compared to UPS having about 46 billion? Doesn't UPS have about 150-200,000 more employees they have to pay than Fedex? Also something to think about, is why was it ok for Express to put up the money to start Ground but now we can't enjoy any of the profits they make over there?
 

MrFedEx

Engorged Member
Because as another thread on BC points out the purpose of of a business entity in a free market society is to make money. It is not to provide a living for it's workers, or health care, or any other perk. So if Fedex deems union scale pay and benefits more costly than they care to pay and they are satisfied with the resulting net income, why on earth should they pay more?

OK, Mr. Free Market. Using your logic, we're free to sit on our asses and not meet increasing productivity demands because we're not satisfied with our net income. The next time a customer wants to ship a package with FedEx, I'll just tell him or her to use UPS because it's not my purpose to provide excessive profit for FedEx. It's my purpose in a Free Market society to maximize my profit. Why on Earth should I work more? Get real "El Rushbo". Geez....
 

vantexan

Well-Known Member
Because as another thread on BC points out the purpose of of a business entity in a free market society is to make money. It is not to provide a living for it's workers, or health care, or any other perk. So if Fedex deems union scale pay and benefits more costly than they care to pay and they are satisfied with the resulting net income, why on earth should they pay more?

That's where a union comes in. It's a two way street, they need our productivity as much as we need the jobs. Labor has something of value that they need, and the union negotiates with management on labor's behalf to obtain fair compensation for that valuable commodity. Trying to keep it as clinical as possible, but in all honesty, we don't just exist for management's benefit. And more and more that appears to be what they want from us.
 

quadro

Well-Known Member
OK, Mr. Free Market. Using your logic, we're free to sit on our asses and not meet increasing productivity demands because we're not satisfied with our net income. The next time a customer wants to ship a package with FedEx, I'll just tell him or her to use UPS because it's not my purpose to provide excessive profit for FedEx. It's my purpose in a Free Market society to maximize my profit. Why on Earth should I work more? Get real "El Rushbo". Geez....
That's not using his logic. Plus you are not free to sit on your ass as you are being paid to perform a task. Whether or not you are getting paid what you feel you are worth is a different discussion. You are not a business entity, you are an employee and, like it or not, your employer does indeed have a right to dictate how you perform that task.
 

MrFedEx

Engorged Member
That's not using his logic. Plus you are not free to sit on your ass as you are being paid to perform a task. Whether or not you are getting paid what you feel you are worth is a different discussion. You are not a business entity, you are an employee and, like it or not, your employer does indeed have a right to dictate how you perform that task.

So sorry, but it is. As a good little worker bee I'm just supposed to accept what my master offers me, right? In your perfect Free Market world, I'd just head-off to another job and someone else would fill my shoes. I'm not supposed to maximize my profit, but I am required to take whatever my company offers and continue to increase my productivity? If FedEx expectations had stayed the same AND if wages had kept pace with the cost-of-living, then your (and bbsam's) Free Market crapola would at least have some logic behind it. But wages did NOT keep pace, so I should be able to sit on my ass in direct proportion to my lack of adequate compensation. So, your argument is crap. Just like the fallacy of the Free Market.
 

bbsam

Moderator
Staff member
OK, Mr. Free Market. Using your logic, we're free to sit on our asses and not meet increasing productivity demands because we're not satisfied with our net income. The next time a customer wants to ship a package with FedEx, I'll just tell him or her to use UPS because it's not my purpose to provide excessive profit for FedEx. It's my purpose in a Free Market society to maximize my profit. Why on Earth should I work more? Get real "El Rushbo". Geez....
Do as you will. Fact is if Fedex doesn't want to pay what you want them to, you are the one who is S.O.L. I don't really see what you find so insulting by the facts I posted. It's simplest form a business exists to make money. All else is process to that one single end. That is not "free market" anything. Businesses in every other nation of the world have that same aim "free market" or otherwise.
 

quadro

Well-Known Member
So sorry, but it is. As a good little worker bee I'm just supposed to accept what my master offers me, right? In your perfect Free Market world, I'd just head-off to another job and someone else would fill my shoes. I'm not supposed to maximize my profit, but I am required to take whatever my company offers and continue to increase my productivity? If FedEx expectations had stayed the same AND if wages had kept pace with the cost-of-living, then your (and bbsam's) Free Market crapola would at least have some logic behind it. But wages did NOT keep pace, so I should be able to sit on my ass in direct proportion to my lack of adequate compensation. So, your argument is crap. Just like the fallacy of the Free Market.
While I may not agree with you on many issues, I do understand the points you are trying to make and I can understand why you make those points. However, this post is just wrong. I specifically said that whether you are paid what you feel you are worth is a different discussion. While you are on the clock and being paid, your employer, any employer, not just FedEx, has a right to dictate how you perform that task. You are not required to take whatever your company offers as you are free to seek other employment. Whether that is practical, right, just, moral, ethical, or whatever, is again another discussion.

By your logic, if you need your refrigerator fixed and I'm the repairman that you call out, I can sit on your couch and drink your beer while you pay me less than I think I'm worth and I'll get to your fridge when I'm damn well good and ready. It doesn't work that way. You are paying me to do a job and you expect me to do it right and in as an efficient manner as possible.

If you want to sit on your ass and go at your own pace while working at Express, please don't whine when you are written up for not performing. You know what is expected of you and you know how much you're getting paid to meet those expectations. And once again, just for clarity, whether that wage is what you feel you are worth is not what this discussion is about.
 

MrFedEx

Engorged Member
While I may not agree with you on many issues, I do understand the points you are trying to make and I can understand why you make those points. However, this post is just wrong. I specifically said that whether you are paid what you feel you are worth is a different discussion. While you are on the clock and being paid, your employer, any employer, not just FedEx, has a right to dictate how you perform that task. You are not required to take whatever your company offers as you are free to seek other employment. Whether that is practical, right, just, moral, ethical, or whatever, is again another discussion.

By your logic, if you need your refrigerator fixed and I'm the repairman that you call out, I can sit on your couch and drink your beer while you pay me less than I think I'm worth and I'll get to your fridge when I'm damn well good and ready. It doesn't work that way. You are paying me to do a job and you expect me to do it right and in as an efficient manner as possible.

If you want to sit on your ass and go at your own pace while working at Express, please don't whine when you are written up for not performing. You know what is expected of you and you know how much you're getting paid to meet those expectations. And once again, just for clarity, whether that wage is what you feel you are worth is not what this discussion is about.

They can dictate the pace and my level of performance when they pay an equivalent wage. Please notice the distinction. I am NOT asking to be paid what I am worth, but what I WAS worth. Let's see, FedEx is only about 10 years behind the cost-of-living curve, so using that rationale, I should be able to perform at the year 2000 standards and be just fine.

I don't have any problem exceeding their standards anyway, but I don't get your "logic". If I don't pay the refrigerator repairman what he asks for (is worth), I can call another repairman who'll do the job for less, or watch him walk out the door and see $300 worth of food potentially rot before I can get someone else, who may or may not perform the job at the wage I want to pay.

To me, Fred is sitting on his couch and I'm the refrigerator repairman (courier). He wants to pay me $100 for a job that is worth $150. Maybe I'm one of a few who can fix his old machine, and it will be hard for him to find someone else who can even do the job, much less want to do it. So maybe I fold like a house of cards and take his $100, or maybe I walk and he loses all his food. Or maybe he offers me a beer and I sit on his couch and take my sweet time fixing his machine. OR maybe he hires some maroon who doesn't know a TV from a refrigerator and just immigrated from Nowhereistan and may be recently released from prison(Ground). OR maybe he pays a well-trained UNION refrigerator repairman who knows exactly what he's doing, arrives in a crisp brown uniform without a ZZ-Top beard and fixes the problem in 20 minutes. Even though he charges more, it's worth it to get the job done right (UPS).
 

Cactus

Just telling it like it is
They can dictate the pace and my level of performance when they pay an equivalent wage. Please notice the distinction. I am NOT asking to be paid what I am worth, but what I WAS worth. Let's see, FedEx is only about 10 years behind the cost-of-living curve, so using that rationale, I should be able to perform at the year 2000 standards and be just fine.

I don't have any problem exceeding their standards anyway, but I don't get your "logic". If I don't pay the refrigerator repairman what he asks for (is worth), I can call another repairman who'll do the job for less, or watch him walk out the door and see $300 worth of food potentially rot before I can get someone else, who may or may not perform the job at the wage I want to pay.

To me, Fred is sitting on his couch and I'm the refrigerator repairman (courier). He wants to pay me $100 for a job that is worth $150. Maybe I'm one of a few who can fix his old machine, and it will be hard for him to find someone else who can even do the job, much less want to do it. So maybe I fold like a house of cards and take his $100, or maybe I walk and he loses all his food. Or maybe he offers me a beer and I sit on his couch and take my sweet time fixing his machine. OR maybe he hires some maroon who doesn't know a TV from a refrigerator and just immigrated from Nowhereistan and may be recently released from prison(Ground). OR maybe he pays a well-trained UNION refrigerator repairman who knows exactly what he's doing, arrives in a crisp brown uniform without a ZZ-Top beard and fixes the problem in 20 minutes. Even though he charges more, it's worth it to get the job done right (UPS).

Great scenario.

That description of the Ground guy was spot on!
 

bbsam

Moderator
Staff member
They can dictate the pace and my level of performance when they pay an equivalent wage. Please notice the distinction. I am NOT asking to be paid what I am worth, but what I WAS worth. Let's see, FedEx is only about 10 years behind the cost-of-living curve, so using that rationale, I should be able to perform at the year 2000 standards and be just fine.

I don't have any problem exceeding their standards anyway, but I don't get your "logic". If I don't pay the refrigerator repairman what he asks for (is worth), I can call another repairman who'll do the job for less, or watch him walk out the door and see $300 worth of food potentially rot before I can get someone else, who may or may not perform the job at the wage I want to pay.

To me, Fred is sitting on his couch and I'm the refrigerator repairman (courier). He wants to pay me $100 for a job that is worth $150. Maybe I'm one of a few who can fix his old machine, and it will be hard for him to find someone else who can even do the job, much less want to do it. So maybe I fold like a house of cards and take his $100, or maybe I walk and he loses all his food. Or maybe he offers me a beer and I sit on his couch and take my sweet time fixing his machine. OR maybe he hires some maroon who doesn't know a TV from a refrigerator and just immigrated from Nowhereistan and may be recently released from prison(Ground). OR maybe he pays a well-trained UNION refrigerator repairman who knows exactly what he's doing, arrives in a crisp brown uniform without a ZZ-Top beard and fixes the problem in 20 minutes. Even though he charges more, it's worth it to get the job done right (UPS).

Really. Does the sight of a man in Brown give you wood?
 

vantexan

Well-Known Member
One problem with FedEx is that to stay "competitive" with pay they just raise starting pay. No real consideration for those who've given loyal service for years, no adjustment for mid-range employees when they raise starting pay. Businesses may just exist to make money, but wise businessmen know that they've got to have happy employees to stay in business. To continually push people to the edge with no real reward for the effort will eventually lead to rebellion(a union). Their answer? Hire more unsuspecting dupes who've heard FedEx pays great and all you have to do is get someone to sign for a letter. The problem with the bigger sucker theory is eventually you'll run out of suckers. Meanwhile there's a hardworking loyal core that's not getting rewarded and is getting more and more frustrated. What do all the business theories say about them? People aren't robots. And as one person asked recently, what does Christianity have to do with it? Anyone claiming to be a Christian can't treat people this way and be a faithful Christian. All you upper management folk reading this, I have to ask you: which is more important, your upper middleclass suburban lifestyle or pleasing God? A man can't have two masters. Take care of the people who make it happen for you, then have a good life on what's left.
 

bbsam

Moderator
Staff member
A friendly challenge from one Christian to another: How does the bible dictate that one is to treat his slaves?
 

quadro

Well-Known Member
They can dictate the pace and my level of performance when they pay an equivalent wage.
That's not how an employer/employee relationship works. In general, a business is free to pay its employees whatever it wants. An employee is then required to perform whatever tasks at whatever pace the employer sets as long as there's no illegal activity etc. It doesn't make it right or fair but it is what it is. You, as an employee, don't get to tell your employer that you are going to work at the pace you decide.

I don't have any problem exceeding their standards anyway, but I don't get your "logic". If I don't pay the refrigerator repairman what he asks for (is worth), I can call another repairman who'll do the job for less, or watch him walk out the door and see $300 worth of food potentially rot before I can get someone else, who may or may not perform the job at the wage I want to pay.
Analogies often don't work well however just to clarify, as you seem to have misinterpreted mine, if you call a repairman and he tells you he charges $xx/hour, your expectation (as his "employer") is that he will work at an acceptable pace. If he's sitting on your couch drinking beer and still charging you $xx/hour, I doubt that you are going to be ok with that just as FedEx isn't going to be ok with you setting your own pace.

Again, not debating whether or not the hourly wage is fair. Just clarifying that a business can and does dictate what it expects from its employees.
 
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