Amazon orders 20000 vans

[sandwich]

Your manager must love you. Constantly using the word REFUSED is a great attribute.

Hi yeah this is old fart again. I'm just calling to narc on operational needs for using her phone during work hours.

 

[dmac1]

Amazon does not want to own any trucks they lease them to the contractors who actually buy the trucks for them. Maintenance is usually included in lease payment. Trucking companies have been running this scam for years.

Amazon will be the owner.

 

[Future]

Watch out Fedex and UPS the monster is coming to crush you.

Good let them deliver their own crap

 

[dmac1]

PS Since there appears to be no goodwill, proprietary rights or protected territories being offered by Amazon then if terminated either voluntarily or involuntarily by AMZN about all you could do is to turn your truck lease back where you got it.
Therefore if the option to buy and take ownership of the trucks at the end of the lease is offered I wouldn't do it. If being required to buy out the trucks there's no way I would sign on with AMZN.
Keep in mind it was only under the threat of an Internal Revenue Lawsuit did RPS grudgingly grant us goodwill and proprietary rights in 1993.
It will be interesting to see if the IRS does the same thing to AMZN if they refuse to grant the same rights to their so called "partners" .

You would be leasing the vehicles from Amazon, and those leases would be terminated if they break their affiliation with you. I have seen promo info saying that you would be leasing the vehicles from Amazon.

The IRS ONLY got involved because taxes weren't being paid by either fedex or the contractor. Fedex paid a huge fine and made some changes to the contract, but the changes were just a delay tactic. The IRS got involved again later, and fedex paid some more, and made some more changes, and now requires proof that the IRS gets paid.

The IRS has no interest in deciding who is an employee, they just want their taxes.

In fact, when the class action was started in 2005-2006, I filed an SS=* after my state ruled we were employees, and the IRS took a year to reply that they DECLINED to make a decision. I had paid the taxes due so they had no reason to proceed. I still have that letter somewhere.

Proprietary rights were ruled to have no bearing on whether drivers were independent or employees. As long as the IRS gets their taxes, they don't give a d***

 

[dmac1]

In what ways are they different? Besides, how much rock salt , calcium chloride and boride do they put on AZ roads in winter? There are many factors that go into the overall cost of delivery van ownership including operating environment. Once a vehicle gets a wide spread reputation for poor performance it's hard to get rid of it especially if it's a large group of people who experienced the same issues.

Have you ever been to AZ??? Think Flagstaff, not Phoenix. Even areas along the Grand Canyon get plenty of ice and snow.

 

[zeev]

Amazon will be the owner.

I should have said they won’t pay for any trucks.

 

[dmac1]

I should have said they won’t pay for any trucks.

That they bought so many means that costs will be lower for them compared to the ISP who buys vehicles at retail prices. That's just one of the ways Amazon will save money using their own delivery service compared to using fedex ground. Even if all other expenses are the same for Amazon, the savings on the vehicle price makes it cheaper. But I think they will have other savings like the need to not even make much profit on deliveries if they can get shipping costs down. Fedex has to make a profit from deliveries- Amazon not so much. Think about the annual profit fedex makes from shipping Amazon products. That is the minimum amount they will save or profit.

 

[Route 66]

Hey! Old Fart’s black!!!......Hoo-da ever thunk? I always pictured him as looking much more like this.

 

[It will be fine]

Hey! Old Fart’s black!!!......Hoo-da ever thunk? I always pictured him as looking much more like this.View attachment 211340

That looks too friendly.

 

[Star B]

Lol. I refused to do that when my manager suggested it to me when it happened in another Sprinter.

I found that tapping the shifter to the right (to shift up) helps coax it to shift up a gear and move a little quicker.

Yes, I've had a turbo go slowly on one I drove... OK TO DRIVE.....

 

[Route 66]

That looks too friendly.

It’s the look he gets on his face when he’s fantasizing about van getting run over by a cement mixer.

 

[bacha29]

Have you ever been to AZ??? Think Flagstaff, not Phoenix. Even areas along the Grand Canyon get plenty of ice and snow.

It's not the snow and ice that causes the rust. It's what is used to treat the snow and ice that causes the rust. The corrosion on the Sprinters was so bad that they wouldn't pass state inspection anymore.

 

[bacha29]

That they bought so many means that costs will be lower for them compared to the ISP who buys vehicles at retail prices. That's just one of the ways Amazon will save money using their own delivery service compared to using fedex ground. Even if all other expenses are the same for Amazon, the savings on the vehicle price makes it cheaper. But I think they will have other savings like the need to not even make much profit on deliveries if they can get shipping costs down. Fedex has to make a profit from deliveries- Amazon not so much. Think about the annual profit fedex makes from shipping Amazon products. That is the minimum amount they will save or profit.

If you think it's such a great deal then why haven't you signed on? The proposal looks to me to be very much similar to the RPS contract in existence prior to the 1993 out of court settlement IRS. The granting of goodwill and proprietary rights was one of the demands IRS required be met or it was off to tax court we go. It was an effort to conform the agreement to make it more compliant with what the IRS believed an independent contractor should look like in addition to the capital gains taxes goodwill can generate.

Going forward the question will be will the IRS find the terms of the AMZN contract acceptable or will they see similarities between it an the RPS contract and take action? If so given that it's AMZN and because it's AMZN and it's cheap labor reputation it may in turn inspire Congress to take action toward the passage of legislation that more clearly defines the term "independent contractor" .

Some people may see the AMZN plan as a once in a lifetime opportunity. It might be just that or find themselves simply a pawn in the growing battle between Bezos and Trump .

 

[Mutineer]

Oh you mean the ones with a 12 gal gas tank, less power than the Reach, break down every week, and vapor lock in the Summer? Yeah, no thanks.

I sometimes have respect for your contributions and opinions on some subjects. This subject is not one of them. From a mechanical/capacity perspective it is obvious to myself and undoubtedly others, that you have no idea what yer yammering about and are simply presenting semi-believable gibberish as fact. I strongly suspect the particular vehicles ('80s to Mid '90s Ford Econolines) I speak of were in service long before you began your career in this industry.

In other words, educate yourself.

Not to mention jumping in the back and having to crouch jacking up your back even worse. A very non compliant suspension that would make you feel it in your kidneys. The list goes on. They were the absolutely worst POS to del out of.

Yes. These vans are no treat to work out of compared to a walk-thru stepvan with shelves. But that is an apples to oranges comparison. They were used mostly for rural routes where clearance with tree limbs and narrow roads are a chronic issue. Also, due to the nature of a spread out, rural route a high (70 stop, 100 piece 160 mile day) was rare.

If you have never been an owner/operator or contractor in this industry, your opinion on the subject of reliability or suitability of vehicles used for these purposes is fairly irrelevant, anyways.

Cuz all said and done it's really not yer problem when the POS breaks down. You contact dispatch, get bailed out, and It's NOT your problem to figure out and NOT your career and everything you've invested on the line.

You just get home a little late for dinner. And while you were sleeping, the next morning shows that The Van Fairy has visited your terminal and provided another van for you to drive. For free.

 

[vantexan]

I sometimes have respect for your contributions and opinions on some subjects. This subject is not one of them. From a mechanical/capacity perspective it is obvious to myself and undoubtedly others, that you have no idea what yer yammering about and are simply presenting semi-believable gibberish as fact. I strongly suspect the particular vehicles ('80s to Mid '90s Ford Econolines) I speak of were in service long before you began your career in this industry.

In other words, educate yourself.



Yes. These vans are no treat to work out of compared to a walk-thru stepvan with shelves. But that is an apples to oranges comparison. They were used mostly for rural routes where clearance with tree limbs and narrow roads are a chronic issue. Also, due to the nature of a spread out, rural route a high (70 stop, 100 piece 160 mile day) was rare.

If you have never been an owner/operator or contractor in this industry, your opinion on the subject of reliability or suitability of vehicles used for these purposes is fairly irrelevant, anyways.

Cuz all said and done it's really not yer problem when the POS breaks down. You contact dispatch, get bailed out, and It's NOT your problem to figure out and NOT your career and everything you've invested on the line.

You just get home a little late for dinner. And while you were sleeping, the next morning shows that The Van Fairy has visited your terminal and provided another van for you to drive. For free.

Ran extended rts doing hundreds of miles in Sprinters. Had a turbo go out on me once. Got stuck a few times. But most of the time ran fine. Would rather risk that then day in, day out having to work out of an econoline, which I did many, many times. You're looking at it from the perspective of the route owner, but the guy who has to actually do the job has a right to an opinion, and I bet the vast majority will tell you a Sprinter is much easier to work out of. And overall I bet FedEx Express is saving money with Sprinters because the workforce is much more productive with them.

 

[Oldfart]

Ran extended rts doing hundreds of miles in Sprinters. Had a turbo go out on me once. Got stuck a few times. But most of the time ran fine. Would rather risk that then day in, day out having to work out of an econoline, which I did many, many times. You're looking at it from the perspective of the route owner, but the guy who has to actually do the job has a right to an opinion, and I bet the vast majority will tell you a Sprinter is much easier to work out of. And overall I bet FedEx Express is saving money with Sprinters because the workforce is much more productive with them.

Once again Tupac is arguing a point that he has no idea what he is talking about. A 12 gal fuel tank? Bad transmissions? Vapor lock?. The Econoline was one of the most durable vehicles the company ever operated. Just ask any mechanic that was here in the 70's and 80's. The job was much different back then. We rarely had the bulk we have now. If you could have put shelves and stood up in an Econoline, it would have been sweet. We had some high cube Fords back then that were great to work in. No doubt the Sprinter has more room but the Econoline was mechanically superior.

 

[MAKAVELI]

Once again Tupac is arguing a point that he has no idea what he is talking about. A 12 gal fuel tank? Bad transmissions? Vapor lock?. The Econoline was one of the most durable vehicles the company ever operated. Just ask any mechanic that was here in the 70's and 80's. The job was much different back then. We rarely had the bulk we have now. If you could have put shelves and stood up in an Econoline, it would have been sweet. We had some high cube Fords back then that were great to work in. No doubt the Sprinter has more room but the Econoline was mechanically superior.

Wasn't here in the 70's and 80's but I can tell you that they were complete garbage before they phased them out. The transmission problems are in the newer Econolines.

 

[Cactus]

That has less to do with availability of parts than it does FedEx squeezing mechanical to not stock parts and jump through hoops to get vendors approved.

Bingo! FedEx is tight with a nickel if it has anything to do with necessities.

 

[dmac1]

It's not the snow and ice that causes the rust. It's what is used to treat the snow and ice that causes the rust. The corrosion on the Sprinters was so bad that they wouldn't pass state inspection anymore.

You need to put 2 and 2 together. They don't use salt in places like Phoenix where it doesn't snow. But in places like Flagstaff, they might. You said that in AZ the vans wouldn't get rusted. My point was that anywhere it snows INCLUDING AZ, you are more likely to get rust. Being in AZ doesn't mean you are safe, no matter what you think.

And since I am 63 and happily retired, I am not interested in working for anyone, including Amazon. But when some troll posts that Amazon contractors are going to be a target for unionizing efforts, in a comparison to fedex, I pointed out that there was no difference. You keep posting how terrible the deal looks to you, and claiming fedex is better because of this or that phony reason. When I see phoniness or mistakes in judgement I am going to point it out. If someone is choosing between a fedex ISP or Amazon ADP, i want them to make a decision based on more knowledge, and not decide based on fake 'propritary rights' that an Amazon ADP may or may not have. Even if not contractually allowed, an ADP might be able to 'hire' someone to manage his operation for him, and could even accept a 'fee' for it. And with needing to pay for propritary rights to get in, the value is really only the difference between current ISP contract value, and possible appreciation, possible depreciation, or just breaking even when you want out.

If you need to pay $150 k to buy into being an ISP, and 10 years later sell for $175k, you really made nothing considering you could have put that money into stocks, bonds, or even a savings account. If you pay nothing for an ADP position ($10k) and walk away with nothing 10 years later, but put your $150 into even something like real estate, you come out ahead. Proprietary rights you need to buy are not worth much. You seem like you are still in the mindset of 1003, or 2001, when fedex was giving away areas, and you didn't need to pay. Those days are gone, for all but the rarest cases, and you could LOSE all the proprietary rights with the next iteration of fedex ground.

And leasing directly from Amazon, at a wholesale vehicle value, that you can walk away from if you leave, in my opinion is MUCH better than being stuck with vehicles that you almost invariably will owe more on than the vehicle is worth should you want to walk away, or if you lose your contract, or if fedex changes how ground operates again.

Less risk, less investment for a potential $300k+ income is better than putting out potentially hundreds of thousands of your savings for a fedex ISP position where you operate 40 routes.

IF I was choosing now, or even if fedex was still 'giving away' routes, I would choose Amazon. Fedex has proven to be a deceitful partner. Sounds like you prefer a known bad partner to a potential good partner. I prefer the opposite.

 

[FedGT]

You need to put 2 and 2 together. They don't use salt in places like Phoenix where it doesn't snow. But in places like Flagstaff, they might. You said that in AZ the vans wouldn't get rusted. My point was that anywhere it snows INCLUDING AZ, you are more likely to get rust. Being in AZ doesn't mean you are safe, no matter what you think.

And since I am 63 and happily retired, I am not interested in working for anyone, including Amazon. But when some troll posts that Amazon contractors are going to be a target for unionizing efforts, in a comparison to fedex, I pointed out that there was no difference. You keep posting how terrible the deal looks to you, and claiming fedex is better because of this or that phony reason. When I see phoniness or mistakes in judgement I am going to point it out. If someone is choosing between a fedex ISP or Amazon ADP, i want them to make a decision based on more knowledge, and not decide based on fake 'propritary rights' that an Amazon ADP may or may not have. Even if not contractually allowed, an ADP might be able to 'hire' someone to manage his operation for him, and could even accept a 'fee' for it. And with needing to pay for propritary rights to get in, the value is really only the difference between current ISP contract value, and possible appreciation, possible depreciation, or just breaking even when you want out.

If you need to pay $150 k to buy into being an ISP, and 10 years later sell for $175k, you really made nothing considering you could have put that money into stocks, bonds, or even a savings account. If you pay nothing for an ADP position ($10k) and walk away with nothing 10 years later, but put your $150 into even something like real estate, you come out ahead. Proprietary rights you need to buy are not worth much. You seem like you are still in the mindset of 1003, or 2001, when fedex was giving away areas, and you didn't need to pay. Those days are gone, for all but the rarest cases, and you could LOSE all the proprietary rights with the next iteration of fedex ground.

And leasing directly from Amazon, at a wholesale vehicle value, that you can walk away from if you leave, in my opinion is MUCH better than being stuck with vehicles that you almost invariably will owe more on than the vehicle is worth should you want to walk away, or if you lose your contract, or if fedex changes how ground operates again.

Less risk, less investment for a potential $300k+ income is better than putting out potentially hundreds of thousands of your savings for a fedex ISP position where you operate 40 routes.

IF I was choosing now, or even if fedex was still 'giving away' routes, I would choose Amazon. Fedex has proven to be a deceitful partner. Sounds like you prefer a known bad partner to a potential good partner. I prefer the opposite.

I have seen now numerous times people saying you’ll be able to just walk away from these leases. That is very hard for me to believe and I doubt that is going to happen. I can almost guarantee there will be terminology of having to fulfill 12 month commitment or something. If that does happen to be the case there would still be significant potential of loss on a 10-40 van commitment. Who knows what they will do though