UpstateNYUPSer(Ret)
Well-Known Member
Were you offended by the geography lesson?
Engineering Consent For An Attack On Iran
- Thread starter BrownMeetPurple
- Start date
Were you offended by the geography lesson?
soberups
Pees in the brown Koolaid
A better analogy would be if New York, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Conneticut, New Hampshire, Maine and Vermont all decided that Rhode Island ought to be wiped off of the map.
I am sorry that it seems necessary to point it out to many (not island) that Israel should not dictate our foreign policy. They are an ally just as Great Britain, Canada, Germany, and Japan are allies. And while we should work in unison, any military action should have both nation's unambiguous support before going forth. If Israel cannot accept those terms, it should not expect support.
soberups
Pees in the brown Koolaid
I agree that we should not get militarily involved by pre-emptively bombing Iran.
However, we cannot ignore the reality that....when push comes to shove...Israel will act pre-emptively. If they feel that their very survival as a nation is at stake (and when your nation is less than 50 miles wide, your survival is at stake when it comes to nukes) they will eliminate the threat by any means necessary, regardless of world opinion and regardless of whether the USA approves of their actions or not.
Remember that we are talking about a nation that was founded by Holocaust survivors. We are talking about a nation that is totally surrounded by hostile governments that are or have been committed to its complete destruction. We are talking about a nation that has had to fight for its very survival since its birth in 1948. And we are talking about a nation that could in fact be effectively "wiped off of the map" by a mere 2 or 3 well placed, crude nuclear weapons.
Israel does not have the luxury of responding to a nuclear attack by Iran or its Hezbollah proxies in Lebanon and Gaza. They have to prevent it, using whatever means are at their disposal. And unfortunately, those means pretty much boil down to nuclear weapons.
My opinion is that we should not attack Iran ourselves, but we should provide Israel with the ability to do so without resorting to a pre-emptive nuclear strike. This would mean stealth aircraft that have the range to reach Iran and bunker-buster bombs that have the ability to penetrate hardened underground sites. Otherwise, Israel will have no choice but to use nuclear missiles of their own.
UpstateNYUPSer(Ret)
Well-Known Member
Sober, do you think simply prepositioning these assets would be enough to convince Iran to back off?
curiousbrain
Well-Known Member
Let's all pretend we know how international negotiations work; and that we can emphatically state what must and must not be the reality of the situation.
I certainly don't know how it all works; and who can blame me? Between the McMahon–Hussein Correspondence, the Sykes–Picot Agreement, the complications due to the Russian Revolution, the Balfour Declaration of 1917, the British Mandate for Palestine, Sadat's possible consideration of peace if Israel withdrew to its prewar borders, the Treaty of Sèvres, the history of Zionism, the history of Arab nationalism, or the history of Iran and Iraq, ... given all that, I think I will reserve judgement, lest I look a fool.
I certainly don't know how it all works; and who can blame me? Between the McMahon–Hussein Correspondence, the Sykes–Picot Agreement, the complications due to the Russian Revolution, the Balfour Declaration of 1917, the British Mandate for Palestine, Sadat's possible consideration of peace if Israel withdrew to its prewar borders, the Treaty of Sèvres, the history of Zionism, the history of Arab nationalism, or the history of Iran and Iraq, ... given all that, I think I will reserve judgement, lest I look a fool.
soberups
Pees in the brown Koolaid
No, because Iran knows that we already have the military capability to destroy its nuclear program using conventional weapons....but we are prevented from using that capability for political reasons. A U.S. attack on Iran would not be supported by the American public or any of our allies, it would inflame world opinion against us, and it would cause great damage to our economy due to the resultant spike in oil prices.
Israel, on the other hand, has no such concerns because for them a nuclear-armed Iran is an existential threat that must be eliminated by any means necessary. When their very survival as a nation and a race is threatened they could care less about world opinion or what happens to the economy. Israels problem has nothing to do with politics and everything to do with the simple fact that it lacks long-range bombers that can penetrate Iranian airspace and carry out the kind of sustained conventional attacks that would be needed to knock out Irans nuclear facilities. Given its current capabilities, Israels only viable military option is to use their own nuclear weapons first. If, on the other hand, we supplied Israel with state of the art stealth aircraft like our B-2, as well as "bunker buster" bombs, they would be able to do the job without nukes.
curiousbrain
Well-Known Member
The premise is wrong.
Your premise, is that Israel has the right to invade/attack other sovereign countries to defend itself; which, if truly believed, could justify an attack on the United States by any other country in the world. It is not for me to tell you that that would obviously never fly, but it is for you to explain why Israel has the exemption to attack those it perceives as a threat? Or, in a grander sense, why does the US have an exemption to attack those it perceives as a threat?
The obvious answer is that it is not about threat, it is about global power and politics. The "attack" against Iran is not because of ideological differences (look at a list of the US allies to see my point), but rather because of the political power nuclear weapons would grant Iran in the Middle East.
BrownMeetPurple
Well-Known Member
Iran never said such a thing. Get your facts right. Stop recycling the same old lie.
(please don't label me an anti-semite please)
How about you stop them from influencing YOUR foreign policy. That's what's going on and has been going on since its creation, not the other way around.
Israel is not Bangladesh for God's sake. It's more than capable of taking care of their so-called problems. It's a nation that was founded by terrorism, stop insulting holocaust survivors!!!! The American people have stopped buying these lies and are starting to wake up to Israel's war crimes and its reality.. it's about time, better late than never! I suggest you too wake up to the reality and give up your dream of Jerusalem.
(please don't label me an anti-semite please)
Israel's only goal is for a greater Israel so it can entertain its whacked religious beliefs of a messiach return to Jerusalem. Stop living in a fantasy land feeding on presstitute lies. All these falling pieces around Israel, it's not a coincidence they have fallen to the hands of the very people Israel is threatened by. They're next goal will be to launch strikes against these people once again for the greater Israel they dream of. Mark my words.
curiousbrain
Well-Known Member
I will not mark your words; quite clearly, you are dying to express your opinion and have identified an avenue with which you can strike. Relax; most nation-states are rational actors (in the Hobbes, Clausewitz, Kissinger sense), and Iran/Israel are no exception. Do not pay attention to what "they" say, rather, consider the constituencies to whom they pander.
wkmac
Well-Known Member
Let's not forget another major player in all of this. Thanks to Wikileaks, we discovered someone else hiding in the shadows so don't become obsessed with what appears to be the obvious when the truth is something different indeed.
When it comes to the games that nationstates play, the truth is not obvious on the surface of the morality play but instead buried and hidden it seems in the details where enemies are really friends.
When it comes to the games that nationstates play, the truth is not obvious on the surface of the morality play but instead buried and hidden it seems in the details where enemies are really friends.
soberups
Pees in the brown Koolaid
Nations such as Iran and Syria are already technically in a state of war with Israel. They do not recognize Israels right to even exist as a nation. Iran in particular is actively supplying terrorist organizations such as Hezbollah with the missiles that they launch into Israel from their bases in Lebanon. And, unlike Egypt, Syria never signed a peace treaty with Israel after the Yom Kippur war.
As far as the morality of a pre-emptive attack goes....should Israel be expected to sit back and wait until after Tel Aviv is reduced to a radioactive pile of rubble before taking measures to defend itself?
Here is a better analogy. Lets say you have a next door neighbor who threatens to kill you every time you step outside your front door. Lets say this neighbor starts fires on your lawn, and poisons your cats, and hangs posters up all over the neighborhood saying that you should be killed. Lets say that one day you are minding your own business in your yard and you look over and see this neighbor pointing a high powered rifle at you and getting ready to load it. Do you wait until after he pulls the trigger before taking action to defend yourself? Or...given his ongoing hostile behavior...do you shoot the guy before he has the chance to pull the trigger?
First, you see a pyschiatrist, and explain why you would live there for so long, then you move.
Problem solved.
Peace.
TOS
Iran has done nothing like in your description. Rhetoric and nonsense and "guessing" by the war mongers in order to scare people into doing something "they" know is in our WORSE interests.
Israel wants nothing more than to be ARMED to the TEETH for FREE by the USA by pretending to be scared, and the war mongers of this country are doing everything they can to "AIR" the fear on television by placing the talking heads on every show every hour to promote the "unmade threats" by IRAN. The war profiteers, like the weekly standard want to convince our people that providing FREE ARMS to ISRAEL is in our best interests....but really, whos best interest is it??
Surely not ours. Surely not the american taxpayers, Surely not our economy, Surely not the lives of our young men and woman and Surely not our freedom or security.
You all can be scared to death for ISRAEL, but at the same time stop bitching about the deficit. Another war will add 2 trillion dollars to the deficit.
Do the math.
Peace.
TOS
Israel wants nothing more than to be ARMED to the TEETH for FREE by the USA by pretending to be scared, and the war mongers of this country are doing everything they can to "AIR" the fear on television by placing the talking heads on every show every hour to promote the "unmade threats" by IRAN. The war profiteers, like the weekly standard want to convince our people that providing FREE ARMS to ISRAEL is in our best interests....but really, whos best interest is it??
Surely not ours. Surely not the american taxpayers, Surely not our economy, Surely not the lives of our young men and woman and Surely not our freedom or security.
You all can be scared to death for ISRAEL, but at the same time stop bitching about the deficit. Another war will add 2 trillion dollars to the deficit.
Do the math.
Peace.
TOS
It is making up straw man analogies that got us into two unfunded, misguided, and ultimately foolish wars. Remember all the "mushroom cloud" talk? And the "what if a guy comes down the street and punches you in the face" analogies? World geopolitics and war deserve deeper thought.
menotyou
bella amicizia
Dead. No hesitation.
The increasing threats of military action against Iran are of course in violation of the UN Charter, and in specific violation of Security Council resolution 1887 of September 2009 which reaffirmed the call to all states to resolve disputes related to nuclear issues peacefully, in accordance with the Charter, which bans the use or threat of force.
The study makes it clear that the Iranian threat is not military. Iran.s military spending is .relatively low compared to the rest of the region,. and less than 2% that of the US. Iranian military doctrine is strictly .defensive,. designed to slow an invasion and force a diplomatic solution to hostilities.. Iran has only .a limited capability to project force beyond its borders.. With regard to the nuclear option, .Iran.s nuclear program and its willingness to keep open the possibility of developing nuclear weapons is a central part of its deterrent strategy..
Read more: Noam Chomsky - Deterring Democracy: Chomsky on IRAN and USA+Israel (WAR DRUMS)
Though the Iranian threat is not military, that does not mean that it might be tolerable to Washington. Iranian deterrent capacity is an illegitimate exercise of sovereignty that interferes with US global designs. Specifically, it threatens US control of Middle East energy resources, a high priority of planners since World War II, which yields .substantial control of the world,. one influential figure advised
Read more: Noam Chomsky - Deterring Democracy: Chomsky on IRAN and USA+Israel (WAR DRUMS)
Read more: Noam Chomsky - Deterring Democracy: Chomsky on IRAN and USA+Israel (WAR DRUMS)
Read more: Noam Chomsky - Deterring Democracy: Chomsky on IRAN and USA+Israel (WAR DRUMS)
BrownMeetPurple
Well-Known Member
Here's the solution, the neighbour wouldn't be so aggressive if you didn't shoot his kids for 'fun'. I think I don't need to mention other things such as demolishing homes, detaining children, separating entire families, destroying livelihood, occupying their land...etc Did I mention ethnic cleansing?
Your analogy is full of failure, where do I begin? This is not hollywood dear sir, it's reality. Iran is not a zombie state, it's not stupid to attack a state which has stockpiled 300 nuclear weapons illegally. Turn off Bill O'reilly and Wolf Isaac Blitzer, drink a hot cup of coffee and think for yourself.
