Fedex Ground Are Fedex Employee's. California 9th Circuit Ruling.

[STFXG]

For most, profits are getting pinched. It's getting less and less attractive to grow. FedEx is aiming to lower the profitability on each route in order to force contractors to grow to maintain their profits. But the risk and costs of expansion get to where it's not worth it.

I know guys with 5-6 routes that were making more as single route contractors just driving it themselves.

The pay is what will cause problems. Not these lawsuits.

 

[bbsam]

You yourself have admitted you'll ride the wave as long as possible but expect it to come crashin down

Yes. I just don't see this as the kill shot.

 

[Brownslave688]

For most, profits are getting pinched. It's getting less and less attractive to grow. FedEx is aiming to lower the profitability on each route in order to force contractors to grow to maintain their profits. But the risk and costs of expansion get to where it's not worth it.

I know guys with 5-6 routes that were making more as single route contractors just driving it themselves.

The pay is what will cause problems. Not these lawsuits.

I'm sure they think. Why not make the contractors a revolving door like the drivers.

 

[STFXG]

I'm sure they think. Why not make the contractors a revolving door like the drivers.

That's always a possibility. There's always a sucker out there. The problem is they want everyone to have at least 3 routes. Even if route values go to crap due to a revolving door they still have to find bodies willing to invest 100k+ just to purchase 3 trucks. There's only so many people out there willing to take that kind of risk. Especially if the pay isn't there.

 

[bbsam]

I'm sure they think. Why not make the contractors a revolving door like the drivers.

I doubt it. Replacing contractors (especially multiple route contractors) while maintaining acceptable service can be a very tricky proposal. They do it, but only as a last resort. I do think they are trying to bring the overall number of contractors down though.

 

[Brownslave688]

I doubt it. Replacing contractors (especially multiple route contractors) while maintaining acceptable service can be a very tricky proposal. They do it, but only as a last resort. I do think they are trying to bring the overall number of contractors down though.

Since when does service matter? Lol

 

[bbsam]

Since when does service matter? Lol

Since as soon as they have to find a way to cover 5 routes when they let one go. There aren't exactly thousands of people just dying for the chance to jump in.

 

[UpstateNYUPSer(Ret)]

Since when does service matter? Lol

You have to admit that they are getting better.

They are kicking our butts on time in transit.

 

[M I Indy]

Wow. Your vigor is impressive but venom weak. For years Cactus, MFE, TDHE, and others around here have heralded the coming downfall of the Ground model. You simply don't understand what you are talking about. I've seen it from the inside. I've argued time and time again about what the phrase "at the discretion of the ISP" means. But that's what happens with a legal document. There are a thousand different ways that Fedex has to "exert control" without violating the overly vague contracting laws. The dirtiest part of it is that the law won't change because governments at every level take advantage of the same statutes, laws, and regulations. Why would they come to the rescue of a few thousand contractors and put their own practices at risk?

Your bluster is bogus and substance is non-existent. "Discretion of the ISP" means the same as "from time to time" in the previous OA. Huh? Exactly, whatever that meant, every manager would/will give you a different interpretation as long as it gets them their immediate results. You see it your way, they see it their way, then write BS discussion notes, you lose. You simply pull fiction out of the air and pass it as must be, absolutely the way. That's what you're talking about. I know you have seen it from the inside...it's the inside of what/who that concerns me. I, on the other hand, have stared into the soul. This is about "control" not incorporating, payroll, taxes, only "control", Ex can tweak all they want, until they "change" the "control" they will be foul of the law. So tell me, what do you or the drivers you manage do so uncharacteristically different than an Express driver on a route running day?

 

[thedownhillEXPRESS]

Your bluster is bogus and substance is non-existent. "Discretion of the ISP" means the same as "from time to time" in the previous OA. Huh? Exactly, whatever that meant, every manager would/will give you a different interpretation as long as it gets them their immediate results. You see it your way, they see it their way, then write BS discussion notes, you lose. You simply pull fiction out of the air and pass it as must be, absolutely the way. That's what you're talking about. I know you have seen it from the inside...it's the inside of what/who that concerns me. I, on the other hand, have stared into the soul. This is about "control" not incorporating, payroll, taxes, only "control", Ex can tweak all they want, until they "change" the "control" they will be foul of the law. So tell me, what do you or the drivers you manage do so uncharacteristically different than an Express driver on a route running day?

Usually the Ground drivers I know drink or smoke pot during the day.So I guess they are a little "different".

 

[bbsam]

Your bluster is bogus and substance is non-existent. "Discretion of the ISP" means the same as "from time to time" in the previous OA. Huh? Exactly, whatever that meant, every manager would/will give you a different interpretation as long as it gets them their immediate results. You see it your way, they see it their way, then write BS discussion notes, you lose. You simply pull fiction out of the air and pass it as must be, absolutely the way. That's what you're talking about. I know you have seen it from the inside...it's the inside of what/who that concerns me. I, on the other hand, have stared into the soul. This is about "control" not incorporating, payroll, taxes, only "control", Ex can tweak all they want, until they "change" the "control" they will be foul of the law. So tell me, what do you or the drivers you manage do so uncharacteristically different than an Express driver on a route running day?

well...since you asked, we straight-line which means we do the route in any order we want. Seems people here think that's a big deal that Express doesn't do it and we do so I guess it's a big deal the other way around.

Look, I don't disagree that X is looking to have it all their way. And your disgust at Ground is admirable in certain circles. You hit all the right notes for the crowd you're playing to. But Ground has lost lawsuits before and won others. In the end, we are farther from being treated as employees than ever and no judge has ever said the X cannot use such a model and in the Estrada case the judge went out of his way to state that was not in the scope of the review.

 

[overflowed]

I think one of the things you are not talking about BB is that this game only works well if everyone thinks you guys are company employees. Which is why the degree of control is there concerning trucks, uniforms, etc. Why do you think many of the control areas concern ground looking the same, and having the same equipment? Because it makes people think that you are working for fedex. You said all the time before they don't know, hence they don't care. It was on NPR. Do you have any idea how many customers have asked me about ground being contractors and not employees in the last week? Lots of them said now it makes sense. I didn't ask what that meant, but I think it's self explanatory.

 

[bbsam]

I think one of the things you are not talking about BB is that this game only works well if everyone thinks you guys are company employees. Which is why the degree of control is there concerning trucks, uniforms, etc. Why do you think many of the control areas concern ground looking the same, and having the same equipment? Because it makes people think that you are working for fedex. You said all the time before they don't know, hence they don't care. It was on NPR. Do you have any idea how many customers have asked me about ground being contractors and not employees in the last week? Lots of them said now it makes sense. I didn't ask what that meant, but I think it's self explanatory.

How does it matter? Do you think the public will boycott? Demand Fred step down? Write their congressmen? Occupy Wall Street had more traction than this will gain and where are they now?

People know that Toyota workers make less in Kentucky than Ford workers in Michigan. They know it's because Kentucky is less friendly to union organization. Doesn't stop them from buying Toyotas. People know that companies exploit for profit and in the end they care as far as their pocketbooks and preferences tell them to. Rarely is it turned into a widespread movement in concern for their fellow man. When was the last time you saw that happen? This won't be any different.

 

[overflowed]

How does it matter? Do you think the public will boycott? Demand Fred step down? Write their congressmen? Occupy Wall Street had more traction than this will gain and where are they now?

People know that Toyota workers make less in Kentucky than Ford workers in Michigan. They know it's because Kentucky is less friendly to union organization. Doesn't stop them from buying Toyotas. People know that companies exploit for profit and in the end they care as far as their pocketbooks and preferences tell them to. Rarely is it turned into a widespread movement in concern for their fellow man. When was the last time you saw that happen? This won't be any different.

So you think. I doubt this will change anything nor do I give a shiete. I'm just saying that now people know the difference between us and for that I'm grateful to the news because I don't have to explain why ground screws the pooch all the time. At least not as much as before. This was on national news BB not some obscure website news link. You understand the ramifications no?

 

[bbsam]

So you think. I doubt this will change anything nor do I give a shiete. I'm just saying that now people know the difference between us and for that I'm grateful to the news because I don't have to explain why ground screws the pooch all the time. At least not as much as before. This was on national news BB not some obscure website news link. You understand the ramifications no?

No, I don't. I doubt seriously that, aside from a piece of water cooler trivia, that anyone will care.

 

[overflowed]

Like I said I can care less what happens. Do you not think the court battles are getting a wee bit pricey about ground? Do you not think corp. is keeping tabs? They built what they wanted for a pittance because of you. Will you keep being worth it to them? That's all I'm trying to get across here.

 

[bbsam]

Like I said I can care less what happens. Do you not think the court battles are getting a wee bit pricey about ground? Do you not think corp. is keeping tabs? They built what they wanted for a pittance because of you. Will you keep being worth it to them? That's all I'm trying to get across here.

compared to what they save in this model, the court battles are chump change. Note that these are challenges from a previous model. FedEx has moved on and I don't think the ISP model has proven as susceptible to legal challenge.

 

[vantexan]

compared to what they save in this model, the court battles are chump change. Note that these are challenges from a previous model. FedEx has moved on and I don't think the ISP model has proven as susceptible to legal challenge.

In other words FedEx saw the writing on the wall years ago and insulated themselves with the ISP model from the inevitable judgements against the old model.

 

[bbsam]

In other words FedEx saw the writing on the wall years ago and insulated themselves with the ISP model from the inevitable judgements against the old model.

In other words, when contractors were suing years ago thinking they would make the company treat them as employees, the company and their lawyers realized that the they had other options.

 

[M I Indy]

well...since you asked, we straight-line which means we do the route in any order we want. Seems people here think that's a big deal that Express doesn't do it and we do so I guess it's a big deal the other way around.

Look, I don't disagree that X is looking to have it all their way. And your disgust at Ground is admirable in certain circles. You hit all the right notes for the crowd you're playing to. But Ground has lost lawsuits before and won others. In the end, we are farther from being treated as employees than ever and no judge has ever said the X cannot use such a model and in the Estrada case the judge went out of his way to state that was not in the scope of the review.

Since you bogus answered...technically you can buy your fuel anywhere you want to also, wow. At the end of the day, you load trucks and drop off boxes, same as an Express driver. Which is how Ex built their empire. Just because Ex decides to paint a white duck blue, doesn't make a blue duck, only one in the room that thinks that is Ex. Only Ex fundamentally disagrees on the decision once the curtain is pulled back on the issue and the truth is shown. This is about "control" if Ex is allowed to operate this way, then the entire industry must be allowed to operate this way if they choose. What federal or state ruling has stated that. Ex picks the words they use from a ruling, never the full statement. You are the pied piper for your crowd of don't care, I got mine, screw you bunch, except your notes are now playing out of tune. How's that route value doing, I'm sure the masses are lining up to take that cash cow that you supervise off your hands. Judge in Estrada case also said pay up, DRIVERS have waited long enough! What judge ever said they CAN use such a model? Scope of review has happened in Cali, how many IC scams there have been sued just this year alone?