If you're fired for Jury Duty paydo you collect Pension after 13-23 years of service.

[over9five]

Re: If you're fired for Jury Duty paydo you collect Pension after 13-23 years of serv

Please people, lets quit with the schoolyard lawyering and stay with the objective data in this case. Its pretty simple to analyze. ............

So you're saying that even though the employees are dirty, cheating, unethical scum like the supervisor... they are NOT responsible for their own actions.
Great to be in the union...

 

[UnconTROLLed]

Re: If you're fired for Jury Duty paydo you collect Pension after 13-23 years of serv

Not

The drivers knew, according to the poster, that they were getting jury duty pay without serving. It does not matter if they were supposed to be off with pay or not, its that they knew they were getting something that they did not earn, or were legally entitled to. And since they had a hearing at which they were fired, it most likely is that they also knew they were not entitled to the pay, therefore stealing from the company. Yes, they had help (the sup), but they were still stealing. If it had only been a sup putting down the wrong code, then the company would not have had a cause to fire the employees.

But I am still wondering why they got fired for dishonesty, but the sup was allowed to resign? From what I keep hearing, all dishonest people get the same treatment, regardless of their position, but it seems not so?

d

Am I missing something? Wasn't this whole thing built upon asking drivers to go home and willing to pay them their daily guarantee?


IF the supervisor said WE WILL PAY YOU YOUR GUARANTEE and it will be coded "Jury Duty

Then this...

"It does not matter if they were supposed to be off with pay or not, its that they knew they were getting something that they did not earn, or were legally entitled to."

...means nothing, because they WERE entitled to, and earned, the pay.

It is how the HOURS WERE CODED that is wrong and the DRIVERS did not physically code anything and were not the ones DOING the dishonesty, the supervisor team was.

 

[UpstateNYUPSer(Ret)]

Re: If you're fired for Jury Duty paydo you collect Pension after 13-23 years of serv

So you're saying that even though the employees are dirty, cheating, unethical scum like the supervisor... they are NOT responsible for their own actions.
Great to be in the union...

...maybe Satellite isn't so dumb after all...

Sleeve, it is called Integrity. If these drivers knew that they were receiving a benefit to which they were not entitled and did not decline this benefit than they just as dirty as the supervisor.

 

[UnconTROLLed]

Re: If you're fired for Jury Duty paydo you collect Pension after 13-23 years of serv

...maybe Satellite isn't so dumb after all...

Sleeve, it is called Integrity. If these drivers knew that they were receiving a benefit to which they were not entitled and did not decline this benefit than they just as dirty as the supervisor.

According to the OP, the drivers were fired and the supervisor was not. I am not arguing if the drivers were right or wrong or in between. If the supervisor was given an opportunity to leave, the drivers should have also been given an opportunity to walk away - as they are no more guilty than the supervisor (at least IMO)

 

[Covemastah]

Re: If you're fired for Jury Duty paydo you collect Pension after 13-23 years of serv

I can't believe a driver with even 1 year would be this stupid,let alone guys with 15 to 20 !!! ALL should be at Fired!!!

 

[UnconTROLLed]

Re: If you're fired for Jury Duty paydo you collect Pension after 13-23 years of serv

I can't believe a driver with even 1 year would be this stupid,let alone guys with 15 to 20 !!! ALL should be at Fired!!!

There will be no more stewards!

 

[UpstateNYUPSer(Ret)]

Re: If you're fired for Jury Duty paydo you collect Pension after 13-23 years of serv

According to the OP, the drivers were fired and the supervisor was not. I am not arguing if the drivers were right or wrong or in between. If the supervisor was given an opportunity to leave, the drivers should have also been given an opportunity to walk away - as they are no more guilty than the supervisor (at least IMO)

You make an excellent point.

 

[Covemastah]

Re: If you're fired for Jury Duty paydo you collect Pension after 13-23 years of serv

A person of character would of told the Sup,pay me optional,sick day or give me a VLO !!!! work as directed has nothing to do with this situation. If a sup told you to go ahead an D.R a $ 80.000 dollar ring,would you do it!! I sure as hell wouldn't !! these guys just D.R 'd an $ 80 k job !!

 

[dannyboy]

Re: If you're fired for Jury Duty paydo you collect Pension after 13-23 years of serv

Please people, lets quit with the schoolyard lawyering and stay with the objective data in this case. Its pretty simple to analyze.
Interesting, its schoolyard lawyering if it is us, but when you speak, its supreme court time?
Someone said "they are working as directed".... TIEGUY asked "seriously"..... Who is correct, in the legal sense? What would stand up in arbitration?
Assume is a great word. Never ever did the poster say they were instructed to accept jury duty pay. He offered, they accepted. There was no mention of guaranteed paid time. We dont know what the wild card is, namely why he offered to pay that many people for not working. Maybe he had them working at his house, we just dont know.
Forget about all your "FEELINGS" about the case and deal with the facts.
We are
First, lets start with how this got started. It was the SUPERVISOR who made the offer to the employees and NOT the employees asking the SUPERVISOR. This is important because there has to be an "IMPETUS" to the action.
Yup, I offer to kill your wife for you. So because I offer, and you accept, I am the only one to commit a crime? Especially after you accept the offer and benefit by it?

Clearly, the "IMPETUS" was created by the supervisor and it was the supervisor who has the OBLIGATION to inform the employees of ALL CONSEQUENCES when being "DIRECTED".
No where did it ever indicate that they were "directed" in any manner. It was an offer. Now, dear sir, where does the contract mention that when a sup is dishonest, and involves employees, the sup must get an informed consent to do so? As a matter of practical law, there is nothing that involves dishonesty that mentions anyone must get informed consent and has an obligation to inform anyone about all the consequences involved. Again, you are reading a lot more into the post than was posted.

This includes informing the employees that the suggested action carried terminable consequences. This fact cannot be ignored. In arbitration, establishing the person responsible for the initial action can determine the "CULPABILITY" of the other persons involved.
Please......you ever heard about sting operations? I have seen LP "salt" packages to see if the person of interest takes a bite. I am sure they had a PCM about not stealing right before they started the sort.....
A supervisor who is conspiring to commit a dishonest action against the company has NO RIGHT to involve the employees he is responsible for managing.
No argument there. No one has the right to involve anyone else in a criminal act. But far beyond that, is the right of the other person to not only refuse to accept the dishonest money, but to actually turn the sup in.

The employees, whether or not knew the action could be considered dishonest can be relieved of that responsibility by virtue of being reliant on "DIRECTION" from a superior in charge of the operation.
That would only be the case if the supervisor used or implied force. If the sup, at the time said you have to take this jury duty money or I will fire you, then he has used his position to intimidate the employee. But that only covers the employee initially. It will not hold up that a day later, the employee did not have ample time to turn the sup in.

Now, that does not mean the employees are in the total clear. An arbitor would make them repay the days they were "IMPROPERLY" coded, but award them to be made "WHOLE" for all the days they were out on discharge.
Again, you are stretching the actual post. No where were they actually improperly coded for the work. Had that been the case, the drivers would never have been fired in the first place. This scenario would as us to believe that only the sup knew about the coding. That is not what was posted. They knew they were to be paid for something that they did not do or deserve. That is pure dishonesty. As far as the repayment, that would be in addition to termination. They were not "mis-payed", they stole. Period.

Working as directed is the critical key to the defense of these employees.
They were not working........Wow, you keep reading things into this that does not exist. They were off. They were offered Jury duty pay for what ever reason, and they accepted.
Regardless of coding, the dishonest action began with the supervisor and he had NO RIGHT to involve the employees on a scam to defraud the company.
The scam was committed by both the sup and the employees.
One of the biggest problems with UPS is the failure to supervise their own supervisors. There are literally hundreds of instances where supervisors are "CHEATING" the system and go undetected.
While I have seen some cheating of the system by management, I can not speak to hundreds as you claim.
The problem is systemic at UPS and this case is just one example of the corruption of the system at large.
Dishonest people exist at every level of a company. They shine a bad light on the vast majority of those that are honest and do their work with integrity every day. Just because of those few does not mean the problem is systemic.

In arbitration, this case would be a slam dunk for the Union, and I hope the local involved takes this case all the way.
The case was a slam dunk, for the company.

Personal feelings, morality and the like do not suffice for objective circumspect, so all of you who believe the employees are guilty of dishonesty dont know CRAP about the legal implications.
I believe you have shown more personal feelings in your post than anyone else on this post. Any way you want to cut it, the sup offered, they accepted. They stood to gain from the offer. AT no time was force or intimidation mentioned. So regardless of the feelings you have toward the situation, the guilt glares so strongly for the normal person, you are blinded by your feelings.

The situation is indeed corrupt and somewhat funny, but it starts with UPS and ends with UPS in responsibility.
Responsibility and consequences are two different things. But both the sup and the employees had the responsibility to choose. They all chose badly. The employees stood to gain more than the sup in this case. So your contention of their being totally without blame is frankly laughable.

TOS

From what was posted, the company acted properly. If there was something not posted that might shine a light on some different aspects in this case, it might affect the outcome, but would be doubtful.

Bottom line, a prostitute offers herself to you. You accept. You know its against the law, but you proceed. You have a great interest in the completion of the transaction(IE the "gain"). You are busted as well as the prostitute. And you are asking us to believe that it was all her fault?

As you said, peace

d

 

[The Other Side]

Re: If you're fired for Jury Duty paydo you collect Pension after 13-23 years of serv

Dannyboy,

What you are missing is pretty simple. An "OFFER" was made to the employees, that "OFFER" was NOT clearly explained by the supervisor responsible for managing the employees.

A partial "OFFER" does NOT suffice for a conspiracy. BOTH parties would have to be in agreement for a conspiracy to occur. In order for the employees to be in agreement with the supervisor, they would have had to have been clearly informed of ALL circumstances and consequences, then and only then would a conspiracy between the parties occur.

In this case, for some reason unknown to us all, the supervisor involved did not want to use "entitlements" or "rest day" coding for these employees. Based upon the number of affected employees, it can be assumed for the purpose of this conversation that the conspiracy began, ended and was maintained by this supervisor.

Additionally, I am speaking about arbitration and not justice at the hub level. A complete investigation should have been conducted before anyone was fired and equal application of discipline enforced.

This means, if you fired ONE employee for this action, then you fire any and ALL supervisors as well. Allowing the supervisor involved (or supervisors) to resign works against the company in arbitration. The arbitor would agree that unfair application of discipline was used since the company allowed the very person or persons responsible for creating the action to resign yet fired the very employees who particitpated after direction.

You must understand that the word "DIRECTION" is an all encompassing word. Direction, includes any action on company property on or off the clock. If a supervisor informs an employee that he may take a day off with pay, but for some reason only known to the supervisor, decides to code the pay as jury duty instead of an entitlement, this is a direction.

In order for a contract or conspiracy to occur, the employees would have had to have knowledge of "WHY" the supervisor chose to FALSELY code them. The employees would have had to have a choice in the matter, and in this case, it does not appear as they did. These employees had an 8 our guarantee for the day earned and that entitlement should not have been taken from them and a "DISHONEST OFFER" made in its replacement.

Hopefully Dannyboy, you can understand this.

A DISHONEST OFFER is not a substitute for an earned entitlement.

Whether or not the employees knew that a false coding was going to be detrimental to them isnt the problem, the OFFER should have NEVER been made in the first place as the SUPERVISOR did not have the AUTHORITY to make such an OFFER in the first place.

I have presented cases like this before and won each case as it came about. NO SUPERVISOR can place an employee in jeopardy without fully informing the employee of the likelyhood of consequences.

Did the employees know it was wrong? Probably, but it does not change the circumstances. The direction was "hey, how would you like to go home and Ill pay you 8 hours as jury duty"

There may have even been a implied guarantee by the supervisor like "dont worry, it will be cool". But this we do not know.

We can only "assume" based upon the limited information available what the circumstances were, and only those with the experience of these types of cases can fill in the blanks.

Working as directed will be the key to winning this case.

Peace.

 

[The Other Side]

Re: If you're fired for Jury Duty paydo you collect Pension after 13-23 years of serv

DANNYBOY,

let me give you an example for you to ponder:

One day, you show up for work as a package driver.

Your supervisor calls you into the office and sez "hey, how would you like to go home for the day?- a question.

You respond "how would I be paid?"-a responsive question.

The supervisor sez "how about I pay you in cash for day, here's 225.00 dollars"- an offer.

You respond "ok, ill take it"- an acceptance.

You take the money, walk out and enjoy your day. Youre out no money for the day as you were paid in cash, so you have no worries. You were made whole.

Subsequently, an investigation is conducted, and it is discovered that the supervisor took 225.00 dollars out of a C.O.D. cash bag and gave it to you. That would make the money you recieved "stolen money".

The company attempts to fire you for dishonesty cause you accepted stolen money.

My question for you is: Would you be guilty of theft/dishonesty for accepting the money and walking out of the building?

Peace.

 

[dannyboy]

Re: If you're fired for Jury Duty paydo you collect Pension after 13-23 years of serv

TOS

I totally understand the angle you are trying to present. But from the information given, that just is not the case here.

Any time an employee does something wrong, there will be consequences. If it is stealing or dishonesty, then termination is the result. From the post, these drivers have been around the block at UPS. They know what is acceptable and what is not. Regardless of the leadership of the group, all knew what they were doing was wrong. All had ample opportunity to say no, but none did. And all the fired employees benefited financially from the dishonest act.

Your contention that the employees did not know what was done behind their backs does not fit the post. And your assumption of there being an entitlement to which they were due is not based on the post either.

And if I remember correctly, the last time I was on jury duty, I had to sign a form that stated so, and that I had to inform the company of what they paid me for the jury duty. So, if they have a signed form, that would be another nail in the pine box.

I have seen several drivers over the year be fired for Jury duty issues. None ever got their jobs back.

One last item

A complete investigation should have been conducted before anyone was fired and equal application of discipline enforced.

From a PM, It could very well be that the manager that was at the center of this dishonesty was approached by LP at the beginning of the investigation. Knowing that he would be terminated, he quit instead, before they had completed their investigation. The drivers did not quit, therefor had to be fired after the investigation was completed.

Working as directed will be the key to winning this case.

They were not directed, there was an dishonest offer made. They did not have to accept the dishonest offer. They CHOSE to accept the dishonest offer. And they benefited financially as a result of the dishonest offer. When working as directed, the choice is not yours, but the company's. They had the choice, they accepted the dishonest offer. Again, we are not talking rookie employees, but seasoned veterans, so they knew what they were doing was wrong.

Bottom line, you advocate that the drivers had no responsibility or decision making capability in this dishonest action, and from what was posted, I strongly disagree.

Best

d

 

[UnconTROLLed]

Re: If you're fired for Jury Duty paydo you collect Pension after 13-23 years of serv

You make an excellent point.

Or better put, if the sup was not guilty enough to get canned, why would the ones who took the offer have a more severe punishment?

This is, simply put setting someone up to fail and penalizing them for failing -all the while looking the other way on the sup. It is no different than giving a driver a NDA with a 10:30 time commit, at 10:10, and it being 30 miles away. Sup says get it done and on-time and driver is being coerced/harrassed into speeding. SO is the driver responsible for being pressued into speeding and is that the correct behaviour?

Who knows, perhaps the sup was on their way out the door? Perhaps this was a under the table deal, setup a bunch of juice seniority drivers because sup was gone anyway for a nice severance package! FNN would love it!

For TOS longer post, I believe this is the summed up version. We have no details on anything except a couple straggler posts by the AirDriver guy, but it is intriguing on all aspects even if completely false, made-up, etc

 

[dannyboy]

Re: If you're fired for Jury Duty paydo you collect Pension after 13-23 years of serv

It is no different than giving a driver a NDA with a 10:30 time commit, at 10:10, and it being 30 miles away. Sup says get it done and on-time and driver is being coerced/harrassed into speeding. SO is the driver responsible for being pressued into speeding and is that the correct behaviour?

Sleeve, there are a lot of differences in what has been discussed, and your example. The sup can say what ever he wants, but if he set up the driver to fail, then it is the sups fault, not the driver. All the driver has to do is the best he/she can. As far as the driver speeding at the direction of the sup just to make service, we all already know the answer.

The driver is responsible for the safe operation of the vehicles at all times. And it is unlawful to go above the speed limit. So while the driver will do the best he can, there is no way he can make the delivery before 10:30. Now, if the driver fudges the delivery time, who should be fired? The sup, or the driver?

Like my example above, a sup can tell you to be in and clean by a certain time, which he knows is impossible. So what do you do? You do what ever you can. I always chose to come in clean, just later than instructed. If the real emphasis was on the return to building time, then there were missed deliveries. You never sell out your integrity to compensate for a messed up dispatch. But I do know a lot of drivers that do, and its only a matter of time......

There are no degrees of integrity.

Glad to see your still kickin Tie.


d

 

[TUT]

Re: If you're fired for Jury Duty paydo you collect Pension after 13-23 years of serv

I can't believe a driver with even 1 year would be this stupid,let alone guys with 15 to 20 !!! ALL should be at Fired!!!

Which tells me it was sold to them a bit differently. One person started spelling out how it will be looked at by the law. The employees were led by a supervisor. It's the Sup's fault, payback from the drivers is reasonable. I doubt they sat there and conspired this plan up as a group. Even so it would still fall on the Sup, they "ok" time, no? And they knew the drivers didn't go to JD. And they didn't come to the SUP and ask for time off and put it towards JD. And if they did, he should have said "I'll have what you are smoking". The Sup knew all the facts and allowed this and actually brought it to their attention to do such a thing. Bamboozled.

 

[UnconTROLLed]

Re: If you're fired for Jury Duty paydo you collect Pension after 13-23 years of serv

Sleeve, there are a lot of differences in what has been discussed, and your example. The sup can say what ever he wants, but if he set up the driver to fail, then it is the sups fault, not the driver. All the driver has to do is the best he/she can. As far as the driver speeding at the direction of the sup just to make service, we all already know the answer.

I'm glad you finally got where I was going with that.

Just as silly as the "If the sup said to rob a bank, and you do it, is only the sup guilty"

Because it's completely different if you just twist the story a tiny bit! If the sup held a gun to the drivers head and made that demand...do it or I kill you and your family....is it STILL the drivers fault, under a death wish?

Again, we don't know exactly what went on (if anything!) ...so the devil is in the details

 

[dannyboy]

Re: If you're fired for Jury Duty paydo you collect Pension after 13-23 years of serv

EZM

Yes, at least that is the way it was done the last time I served. IT was also the nail in the coffin of the drivers that tried to cheat the company out of jury duty pay. Their signature on a piece of paper saying they served that day on jury duty, or at least had to report that day for duty.

In the case of one driver, the court notified him that he did not have to show the following day for duty, but he told his sup that he had to be at the court house that AM. He actually did serve almost two weeks, but it was that one day he claimed that was what got him fired.

Slam dunk for the company to fire someone falsely claiming money not due them.

So unless the company no longer requests that from the driver, for them to get paid jury duty, they had to sign saying they served. So unless TOS wants to suggest that the sup also forged their names..........

d

 

[thessalonian13]

Re: If you're fired for Jury Duty paydo you collect Pension after 13-23 years of serv

If the drivers knew they were being paid for "jury duty", which would have shown up on their paycheck as so, then they should have informed a division manager and their shop steward as to what was going on. "COVER YOUR ASS" When I am asked if I want the day off, unless I have personal/sick days left, I know I am taking the day off with NO PAY. If the drivers were informed by their center manager that they were going to be coded out as "jury duty", then they are outta luck since they knew that was false. I hate to say this, but they all got what they deserved IF THEY ALL KNEW this was going on.

 

[Re-Raise]

Re: If you're fired for Jury Duty paydo you collect Pension after 13-23 years of serv

I question pretty much everything my supervisors tell me.

My first question when this even came up would be how the hell do you think you can get away with this and what stupid report are you trying to stay off of?

 

[22.34life]

Re: If you're fired for Jury Duty paydo you collect Pension after 13-23 years of serv

Here's the problem I have.

Over made a good post about "how stupid can these drivers be"

What some may be forgetting is that it IS possible the supervisor, like Braveheart said, was simply coding the hours as Jury Duty to falsify the records to upper-management and keep the on-road hours and routes on area at an "Acceptable" level according to the numbers upper management dictated.

Now, as a driver, do you really care how they code your hours? if you come in, work for 4 hours and by 1pm the sup calls and says "want to go home, we'll pay you 8 hours"...are you going to say no?

IF you look at it that way, the drivers may have been the ones scammed, if anything. Personally, like SoberUPS has said, I don't care HOW I get paid, but I do care that I get paid for every minute that I'm working and/or guaranteed. It is NOT the drivers doing the misclassification of hours in this case.

It seems, anyway, it WAS the drivers and sups taking advantage of this little scheme -but the drivers were NOT the ones doing the scheming.

i agree to a certain extent,if a sup tells me im going to pay you x amount of time and i dont work it im going to ask some questions after all who cares if he gets fired if im in the unemployment line with him.