Is a person's scheduled day off counted towards the 3 day occurence policy?

[zubenelgenubi]

So far what I am finding is that any issue that affects working conditions, or puts a burden on an employee, falls under mandatory subjects for collective bargaining. Mandatory, however, does not mean that an issue must be addressed in bargaining, simply that if either party wants to address it, it must be negotiated.

Anything that would be considered a mandatory subject that is not brought up during negotiations would be subject to past practices as far as company policy is concerned. As such, much of company policy can be considered to be part of the CBA, and if the company wants to make changes to mandatory subject issues, they would have to bargain with the union over them.

CBAs can contain a Management Rights clause that would allow management to make unilateral changes to working conditions. The clause must contain very explicit waivers of the right of the union to bargain for specific subjects. As far as I can tell, our contract does not contain any such clause.

In summary, anywhere an issue affecting working conditions is not addressed by the contract, company policy effectively becomes part of the agreement through past practices. The company is unable to make changes to these policies without first bargaining with the union. That being the case, I believe employees have a right to have access to copies of company policies pertaining to working conditions, and the union has the responsibility to keep the company in check regarding changes to those policies.

 

[Mugarolla]

You're saying one doesn't trump the other because the other allows the one to trump it.

Exactly. A CBA cannot trump State law unless State law allows for it. And it is actually quite rare. There are not many instances of laws that allow for this.

Thanks, again, for your input.

You're welcome.

 

[Mugarolla]

So far what I am finding is that any issue that affects working conditions, or puts a burden on an employee, falls under mandatory subjects for collective bargaining. Mandatory, however, does not mean that an issue must be addressed in bargaining, simply that if either party wants to address it, it must be negotiated.

Anything that would be considered a mandatory subject that is not brought up during negotiations would be subject to past practices as far as company policy is concerned. As such, much of company policy can be considered to be part of the CBA, and if the company wants to make changes to mandatory subject issues, they would have to bargain with the union over them.

CBAs can contain a Management Rights clause that would allow management to make unilateral changes to working conditions. The clause must contain very explicit waivers of the right of the union to bargain for specific subjects. As far as I can tell, our contract does not contain any such clause.

In summary, anywhere an issue affecting working conditions is not addressed by the contract, company policy effectively becomes part of the agreement through past practices. The company is unable to make changes to these policies without first bargaining with the union. That being the case, I believe employees have a right to have access to copies of company policies pertaining to working conditions, and the union has the responsibility to keep the company in check regarding changes to those policies.

Very good.

The more you research, the more you understand and the better prepared you are.

Keep it up.

I believe employees have a right to have access to copies of company policies pertaining to working conditions

You do.

You have access to the appearance guidelines, the Code of Business Conduct and the UPS Policy Book.

These three cover UPS policies not covered by the CBA. Social media posting, harassment, workplace violence, etc.

Some are not covered in either, but have been agreed to by the local and the Company, like the issue that started this, attendance.

Ask your BA or you center manager what the attendance guidelines are for your work location. And trust me, they differ everywhere.

and the union has the responsibility to keep the company in check regarding changes to those policies.

So you want the Union to enforce the Company policy on workplace violence, or appearance, or sexual harassment?

They will fight for you on these issues, if that's what you mean by keeping them in check.

 

[BigUnionGuy]

So far what I am finding is that any issue that affects working conditions, or puts a burden on an employee, falls under mandatory subjects for collective bargaining. Mandatory, however, does not mean that an issue must be addressed in bargaining, simply that if either party wants to address it, it must be negotiated.

Anything that would be considered a mandatory subject that is not brought up during negotiations would be subject to past practices as far as company policy is concerned. As such, much of company policy can be considered to be part of the CBA, and if the company wants to make changes to mandatory subject issues, they would have to bargain with the union over them.

CBAs can contain a Management Rights clause that would allow management to make unilateral changes to working conditions. The clause must contain very explicit waivers of the right of the union to bargain for specific subjects. As far as I can tell, our contract does not contain any such clause.

In summary, anywhere an issue affecting working conditions is not addressed by the contract, company policy effectively becomes part of the agreement through past practices. The company is unable to make changes to these policies without first bargaining with the union. That being the case, I believe employees have a right to have access to copies of company policies pertaining to working conditions, and the union has the responsibility to keep the company in check regarding changes to those policies.

The easiest way to look at it, is the company can change company policy.

But, when they try and take the position of disciplinary action for violation

of those new policies.... is when it becomes the subject of mandatory bargaining.

Ask your BA or you center manager what the attendance guidelines are for your work location. And trust me, they differ everywhere.

I've never seen anything in writing. They can differ between facilities and even

between full and part-time. That being said.... you really have to have serious problems

for getting disciplined for attendance.


You'll see people on here suggest it be contractual language, which is a bad move.

Right now, there is leeway to work with people. Put it in the contract.... and

everyones hands are tied.



-Bug-

 

[Mugarolla]

You'll see people on here suggest it be contractual language, which is a bad move.

Right now, there is leeway to work with people. Put it in the contract.... and

everyones hands are tied.

Yep.

Sometimes, though, it's beneficial to not be in black and white.

 

[zubenelgenubi]

So you want the Union to enforce the Company policy on workplace violence, or appearance, or sexual harassment?

They will fight for you on these issues, if that's what you mean by keeping them in check.

No, not enforce, but prevent them from making changes to the policies without bargaining over the changes.

 

[zubenelgenubi]

The easiest way to look at it, is the company can change company policy.

But, when they try and take the position of disciplinary action for violation

of those new policies.... is when it becomes the subject of mandatory bargaining.





I've never seen anything in writing. They can differ between facilities and even

between full and part-time. That being said.... you really have to have serious problems

for getting disciplined for attendance.


You'll see people on here suggest it be contractual language, which is a bad move.

Right now, there is leeway to work with people. Put it in the contract.... and

everyones hands are tied.



-Bug-

Ok, so if the issue is not covered by the CBA, then it is not directly subject to grievance procedure, but discipline would.be. I think I have some good questions for my next union meeting now. Thanks for the insight. I do appreciate it.

 

[BigUnionGuy]

Ok, so if the issue is not covered by the CBA, then it is not directly subject to grievance procedure, but discipline would be.

You can grieve a company policy.... but, it's not a contract violation.

I think I have some good questions for my next union meeting now. Thanks for the insight. I do appreciate it.

While you are at it....

Ask 2 co-workers (members) to go with you. Challenge them, to do the same.


Strength in numbers.

 

[zubenelgenubi]

You can grieve a company policy.... but, it's not a contract violation.

But the grievance process can only be used for violations of the contract, right? Wouldn't a company policy would have to somehow violate a term of the contract in order to grieve it.

And that leads back to another aspect of my query, if a company policy is not addressed by the contract, somehow, but let's say the company is not applying the policy evenly, then the union would have no standing to challenge the policy. I can't think of any situation that wouldn't involve discipline that employees would have a reason to challenge a company policy, and discipline would be addressable through grievance, but not the policy itself. So even if the company had a policy that was illegal, or not evenly applied, as long as they followed the disciplinary steps outlined in the contract, there would be nothing to grieve.

Let's use appearance standards as an example. If some aspect of the company policy violated state or federal law, but appearance standards are not addressed by the contract, or if the contract specifically waives the right to bargain over appearance standards, then the issue of the illegal aspect of the policy would have to be addressed through the courts. At least that is how I understand it.

 

[Mugarolla]

But the grievance process can only be used for violations of the contract, right?

Nope.

You can grieve Company policy since both sides must adhere to them.

 

[scooby0048]

While you are at it....

Ask 2 co-workers (members) to go with you. Challenge them, to do the same.

Strength in numbers.

Great thought in theory, but it would get you laughed right out of the building though. I try to support the union and try to get people involved but it is futile.

No one (including myself) is willing to drive 6hrs each way, on a Sunday, to spend 1-1.5hrs in a union meeting where only about 10 minutes is spent talking about UPS things. The rest of the time focuses on the other companies the local represents and the bitchfest their employees bring. No thanks. We are lucky to even see someone from our local once a year. Hell, they can't even be bothered to update the website homepage. The member's only area does not work, and there is no schedule posted for when meetings are held.

I pay dues because I reap union benefits not because of the fine representation my local or national leaders provide.

 

[zubenelgenubi]

Nope.

You can grieve Company policy since both sides must adhere to them.

Well the master only details the grievance procedure for violations of the contract. What gives the union the authority to challenge company policies that do not fall under the contract? Is it in the NLRA? We can't even force them to discipline management employees due to contractual violations.

In the NLRB decisions I found that relate to the matter, the policies that pertain to mandatory subjects were considered part of the CBA and terms were established through past practices. That is the only link I could see giving the union standing to grieve company policy.

 

[zubenelgenubi]

Great thought in theory, but it would get you laughed right out of the building though. I try to support the union and try to get people involved but it is futile.

No one (including myself) is willing to drive 6hrs each way, on a Sunday, to spend 1-1.5hrs in a union meeting where only about 10 minutes is spent talking about UPS things. The rest of the time focuses on the other companies the local represents and the bitchfest their employees bring. No thanks. We are lucky to even see someone from our local once a year. Hell, they can't even be bothered to update the website homepage. The member's only area does not work, and there is no schedule posted for when meetings are held.

I pay dues because I reap union benefits not because of the fine representation my local or national leaders provide.

My local is in town, our guys really have no valid excuse. Well, except when we are working until after the union meeting is over, since our meetings are during the week.

 

[scooby0048]

My local is in town, our guys really have no valid excuse. Well, except when we are working until after the union meeting is over, since our meetings are during the week.

That's a completely different story. Then I would expect more participation.

 

[Mugarolla]

Well the master only details the grievance procedure for violations of the contract. What gives the union the authority to challenge company policies that do not fall under the contract?

Working conditions that both sides are bound by.

Example. An employee is fired for sexual harassment.

This is a Company policy, not a negotiated CBA issue.

It can be grieved and will be heard.

 

[BigUnionGuy]

Example. An employee is fired for sexual harassment.

This is a Company policy, not a negotiated CBA issue.

Really ?

Sexual harassment is only a "company policy".... and not covered by the CBA ?

 

[zubenelgenubi]

Working conditions that both sides are bound by.

But the question is: bound by what authority? If it's not part of an agreement between the union and the company, neither has any power to compel the other to do anything accept as required by statute or regulation. But those issues would have to be enforced through the courts or regulatory bodies, such as the NLRB. Technically even the contract is only enforcable through the weight of legal recourse.The grievance machinery exists to streamline the enforcement of the contract without getting bogged down in the courts, but is limited in scope to terms of the contract. That is unless you know of a law, regulation, or contract clause that says differently.

 

[Mugarolla]

Really ?

Sexual harassment is only a "company policy".... and not covered by the CBA ?

Article and Section number?

Unless you're referring to the infamous Central Region 17i.

 

[quad decade guy]

An Emergency has come up and I plan to miss 4 days of work. I know I got a write up coming for it and I'll take it, but what I want to know is if my scheduled day off is Monday and I take Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday off, will I still need a doctors note to return? Does Monday count since I'm normally off for Mondays anyway?

Well no bs, I've never lied about missing work for any reason. I just tell them the truth. It's served me

well for 40 years. BTW-how do you plan an emergency....days in advance? It really makes a cheat

and lier out of you. If whatever is so important to lose your job over(potentially)-quit.

 

[Mugarolla]

But the question is: bound by what authority? If it's not part of an agreement between the union and the company, neither has any power to compel the other to do anything accept as required by statute or regulation. But those issues would have to be enforced through the courts or regulatory bodies, such as the NLRB. Technically even the contract is only enforcable through the weight of legal recourse.The grievance machinery exists to streamline the enforcement of the contract without getting bogged down in the courts, but is limited in scope to terms of the contract. That is unless you know of a law, regulation, or contract clause that says differently.

Now you're starting to see what the Union is up against.