Islam

[BrownArmy]

Christianity is a "new testament", not the old, which was Jewish law. We learn from the Old Testament, but everything we need as Christians is found in the New Testament. It's a better way to live, and a radical departure from the the world as it was when founded. There is recounting of violence done against Christ and Christians in the New, but tell me where in the New Testament are we commanded to commit violence? To wage war on unbelievers? When Peter cut off that soldier's ear Jesus healed the soldier and told Peter if he lived by the sword he would die by it too. The battles we fight as Christians are spiritual battles, not physical.

I mean, Revelations is pretty violent.

My initial point was that both texts have beauty and violence, if we look at what has been done in the name of Islam and Christianity, as far as I'm concerned, it's a draw.

I was just pushing back on your assertion that Islam has always been the aggressor and Christianity the oppressed.

 

[vantexan]

I mean, Revelations is pretty violent.

My initial point was that both texts have beauty and violence, if we look at what has been done in the name of Islam and Christianity, as far as I'm concerned, it's a draw.

I was just pushing back on your assertion that Islam has always been the aggressor and Christianity the oppressed.

Revelations is apocalyptic literature, commonly used in that time, to disguise meaning from the government that was persecuting Christians. Did you know that back then letters were assigned numerical value, and the number 666 refers to Nero?

Certainly bad things have been done in the name of Christianity. But right here, right now, we have constant attacks all over the world in the name of Allah. Attacks that have killed hundreds, sometimes thousands at a time. In every region of the world. Can we stop it? Doubtful. But letting hundreds of thousands of refugees into our country without vetting them properly is crazy because we can't vet them properly. And considering how things are going in Europe with a huge spike in crime since they let them all in I don't understand how anyone aware of that would argue for it.

 

[DriveInDriѵeOut]

Tell me where in the New Testament?.

Matthew 5:17

 

[BrownFlush]

Revelations is apocalyptic literature, commonly used in that time, to disguise meaning from the government that was persecuting Christians. Did you know that back then letters were assigned numerical value, and the number 666 refers to Nero?

Vanman.. Your kiddin' right? On this forum? You are gonna give it a shot? Tougher than I am. Better wear gloves to keep your fingers from bleeding.

When do you think John wrote it?
I think John could have been banished by Domitian and restored by Nerva, as the tradition tells us, but in AD 70-71 rather than later when Domitian became emperor and later still when Nerva took his place.
I think key verse in dating Revelation is 17:10-11, where John says 8 kings, and tells us that one is, one will come and continue only a short time, and then the eighth will come. If you can determine the one that “is” then we will know when the book was written.
With Augustus being the first Caesar until Domitian is 11 emperors and John mentions only 8. I believe the explanation to that is that John ignores the three who came and went during the Civil Wars. (Daniel 7, by contrast, mentions them but says they were plucked up.)
If you omit those three, then number 8 is Domitian. Counting back one, is Titus, who reigned only a short time ( 17:10-11.) Count back one more, Vespasian, who then must be the king who “is.”
So, I would argue that Revelation was written during the reign of Vespasian, but it likely was not circulated until some time later when John’s exile ended.

 

[vantexan]

Matthew 5:17

Yes, he came to fulfill the Law, fulfill the prophets. That's not a call to violence but an acknowledgement that he was the Messiah, as prophesied.

 

[vantexan]

Vanman.. Your kiddin' right? On this forum? You are gonna give it a shot? Tougher than I am. Better wear gloves to keep your fingers from bleeding.

When do you think John wrote it?
I think John could have been banished by Domitian and restored by Nerva, as the tradition tells us, but in AD 70-71 rather than later when Domitian became emperor and later still when Nerva took his place.
I think key verse in dating Revelation is 17:10-11, where John says 8 kings, and tells us that one is, one will come and continue only a short time, and then the eighth will come. If you can determine the one that “is” then we will know when the book was written.
With Augustus being the first Caesar until Domitian is 11 emperors and John mentions only 8. I believe the explanation to that is that John ignores the three who came and went during the Civil Wars. (Daniel 7, by contrast, mentions them but says they were plucked up.)
If you omit those three, then number 8 is Domitian. Counting back one, is Titus, who reigned only a short time ( 17:10-11.) Count back one more, Vespasian, who then must be the king who “is.”
So, I would argue that Revelation was written during the reign of Vespasian, but it likely was not circulated until some time later when John’s exile ended.

That's my understanding of it but it is apocalyptic literature, intended to be murky. So you may be right. I do feel for those who take it literally, as in a 666 on their foreheads.

 

[DriveInDriѵeOut]

Yes, he came to fulfill the Law, fulfill the prophets. That's not a all to violence but an acknowledgement that he was the Messiah, as prophesied.

It says follow the laws, the old testament laws, the violent old testament laws.
You asked to show you the violence, I provided what you asked for.

Hope this helps.

 

[BrownFlush]

That's my understanding of it but it is apocalyptic literature, intended to be murky. So you may be right. I do feel for those who take it literally, as in a 666 on their foreheads.

In "you're kiddin' right" I was referring to you making the attempt here with others. Not possible.

So, you favor Foy's position to an earlier date?

I think the persecution was more widespread and favors a later date than Foy gives it.

 

[vantexan]

It says follow the laws, the old testament laws, the violent old testament laws.
You asked to show you the violence, I provided what you asked for.

Hope this helps.

Sorry, but you're taking it out of context. Jesus was the fulfillment of the laws and prophecies concerning the Messiah. And in light of his teachings you can't say he advocated violence. And I'll go you one further. Jesus was born and raised a Jew. His Church wasn't established until after his death and resurrection. Christians are to follow his teachings and those of his inspired apostles. It's so vastly different from Islam that I don't know how an intelligent person can't see the difference. Or just simply refuses to.

 

[vantexan]

In "you're kiddin' right" I was referring to you making the attempt here with others. Not possible.

So, you favor Foy's position ? Ever read Hailey's?

I think the persecution was more widespread and favors a later date than Foy gives it.

You're better versed than I am. My father has those authors in his library. I heard the 666 thing at Freed-Hardeman.

 

[DriveInDriѵeOut]

Sorry, but you're taking it out of context. Jesus was the fulfillment of the laws and prophecies concerning the Messiah. And in light of his teachings you can't say he advocated violence. And I'll go you one further. Jesus was born and raised a Jew. His Church wasn't established until after his death and resurrection. Christians are to follow his teachings and those of his inspired apostles..

You are welcome to that opinion, despite it being wrong..... very, very, wrong. Lol.

You are the one taking it out of context, by about 100 years.

 

[vantexan]

You are welcome to that opinion, despite it being wrong, very, very, wrong.

You are the one taking it out of context, by about 100 years.

If you say so.

 

[DriveInDriѵeOut]

If you say so.

Well at least we can agree that religious texts are up for interpretation. At least the Christian ones are.

When it comes to Islam, the text is to be taken literally exactly as the English translation reads....
Lol.

 

[BrownFlush]

You're better versed than I am. My father has those authors in his library. I heard the 666 thing at Freed-Hardeman.

You study it..everything is good and it all falls in place , then you leave it alone for a while, go. back to it, and its like.. oh boy..lets get it in gear.

 

[vantexan]

Well at least we can agree that religious texts are up for interpretation. At least the Christian ones are.

When it comes to Islam, the text is to be interpreted exactly as translated to English, right?

Lol.

I assume scholars have translated the Koran into English as have scholars in most other languages. I've never heard a Muslim complain that the English Koran is full of lies. And I assume Muslim scholars worked on the translations. It's their sacred text, and certainly they want to share it with others. Now don't you think your implication was a bit childish?

 

[DriveInDriѵeOut]

I assume scholars have translated the Koran into English as have scholars in most other languages....

I assume Muslim scholars worked on the translations. It's their sacred text, and certainly they want to share it with others.

I assume scholars have translated the Bible into English as have scholars in most other languages.

I assume Christian scholars worked on the translation. It's their sacred text, and certainly they want to share it with others.

..... Just like the Koran.

Yet the Bible is up for interpretation and the Koran isn't? Now don't you think your implication was a bit childish?

 

[El Correcto]

I assume scholars have translated the Bible into English as have scholars in most other languages.

I assume Christian scholars worked on the translation. It's their sacred text, and certainly they want to share it with others.

..... Just like the Koran.

Yet the Bible is up for interpretation and the Koran isn't? Now don't you think your implication was a bit childish?

Yes and look how it is being interpreted.

Let’s cut off prisoner heads, cane them in the street for writing political views, throw gays off building, honor kill women, stab people in the street, strap bombs to ourselves, fly planes into buildings, shoot up gay clubs and ram trucks through a crowd of people.

 

[DriveInDriѵeOut]

Yes and look how it is being interpreted.

Let’s cut off prisoner heads, cane them in the street for writing political views, throw gays off building, honor kill women, stab people in the street, strap bombs to ourselves, fly planes into buildings, shoot up gay clubs and ram trucks through a crowd of people.

The power of religion.

 

[vantexan]

I assume scholars have translated the Bible into English as have scholars in most other languages.

I assume Christian scholars worked on the translation. It's their sacred text, and certainly they want to share it with others.

..... Just like the Koran.

Yet the Bible is up for interpretation and the Koran isn't? Now don't you think your implication was a bit childish?

Christians are following Christ's teachings, and Muslims are following Muhammad's teachings. And we see the difference.

 

[El Correcto]

The power of religion.

Islam is the most violent and radical religion in modern times.

It’s a terrible ideology, you will always be the aggressor against Islam, so always eligible for jihad.