Liberal / Conservative
- Thread starter moreluck
- Start date
MrFedEx
Engorged Member
I'm familiar with the usual answers, which are not satisfactory. Why does God let little kids die, the evil live and prosper, and allow war, disease, and famine? Natural disasters, cancer, airplane crashes. An all-powerful, loving God would intervene IMO. I have studied the Bible, as well as other religious books, and agree that faith is an essential element for those who believe. However, what would be wrong with some proof and some intervention into some of the really evil things that happen on this planet? He stood by and watched 25 million people die in WWII, including the 6 million exterminated by Hitler. Why?
moreluck
golden ticket member
For my proof, I look up at the sky, the stars, the moon and all that stuff up there. I figure God doesn't interfere because we have free will. Sometimes we blow it and sometimes we don't.
It's not simple, it's very complicated. I just know (for me) there's someone/something greater that me out there.
It's not simple, it's very complicated. I just know (for me) there's someone/something greater that me out there.
moreluck
golden ticket member
First, the non-existence of God cannot be proven. One cannot prove a universal negative. Alternatively, the existence of God is provable.
Read some of the stuff here...
http://www.allaboutcreation.org/scientific-proof-of-god-faq.htm
Read some of the stuff here...
http://www.allaboutcreation.org/scientific-proof-of-god-faq.htm
That is the depth of theological challenge required for you to discount religion? That's something a 12 year old would say.
klein
Für Meno :)
Sorry, but got degrees in sceince, chemistry and micro-biology.
So, I prefer science over religion. That's just my opinion, and it's always a debate between them (science versus religion or the bible).
If you believe a cat originated from a tiger family, and a dog came from the wolf family, then why don't you believe we came from the ape family ?
Science and archeology has basically proven it !
What has the Bible proven ?
So, I prefer science over religion. That's just my opinion, and it's always a debate between them (science versus religion or the bible).
If you believe a cat originated from a tiger family, and a dog came from the wolf family, then why don't you believe we came from the ape family ?
Science and archeology has basically proven it !
What has the Bible proven ?
I just don't see the two in conflict with each other. And for what it's worth, I'd say Genesis got the order of creation fairly accurate given the scientific knowledege of the time. For all the knowledge that we've acquired throught the ages, can we really say we've got it all figured out? Even at the human genome level, the mysteries abound. And why would you think that I don't believe we came from the ape family? I think you have religious people pigeon-holed moreluck style and that is hardly the mark of a scientifically trained mind.
trplnkl
555
People on your side of this debate call people with faith in God fools. Then you turn around and want me to believe this?
I don't think so.
wkmac
Well-Known Member
I always saw religion and science trying to prove the exact same thing just from different perspectives and that is explaining what we don't know. You make a good point about ancient man in his limited capacity getting it somewhat right. Ancient man looked up into the night sky and saw a realm of gods and named what he saw gods and interpretted earthly events based of celestial movements and how events repeated based on such movements. Looking at the stars as god or creator may in some real sense been a lot more right and now modern science seems to support early religious belief. We now know that stars are a creative force in the universe which not only create all chemical compounds but the chemical compounds that make life as we know it possible. Science in a sense confirmed years later what early man on a religious level believed.
As for the bible's creation story, which one? Genesis Chapter 1 has a creation story and an order of creation and then Chapter 2 has another creation story and a different order of creation. Or could it be the bible just might be making a historical fact a point of a greater lesson? Chapter 1 think hunter gatherer man and chapter 2 think agrarian man who would go on to organize and build stable societies. Well we call them stable so there you go.
Oddly enough the name Adam in hebrew means of the dust, of the earth and of course the story tells us god created Adam from the earth. Are we overlooking a deeper symbology here? How is it that a chapter later where god saw favor in the fruits of Abel's labor that being fruits of the field. We also know historically that if you run a timeline back based on the bible, you arrive at a period in time where man was rapidly shifting from hunter gatherer tribal societies to agrarian organized societies. And one other little tidbit I always found interesting was the hebrew word translated garden. It did not mean garden in the sense we often think and that being some place of beauty but rather is literally meant a walled up or protected area. A better translation of the word IMO might have been Kingdom or in this case Kingdom of Eden. And it's no stretch that a running storyline throught the bible is about a kingdom man is always seeking.
The bible to me is just another man revealed religion and another attempt on the part of man to explain what seems the unexplainable. At the same time, I also think the bible has value and there are lessons to be learned from it. IMO, we get more hung up on the supernatural aspects of the bible and in so doing often miss the more simplier and not so supernatural lessons that may have been the author's intent to begin with.
We often get so hung up one way or another that we make the same mistake a Catholic Pope made. You see after he died, he got to heaven and God gave him the new orientation speech that all new heavenites get. Then God asked, "got any questions" to which the Pope ask, "yeah, is it possible for me to see the original copy of the bible that you wrote?" God replied, "Sure, right over there it sits and take as long as you like. I've got some other duties to attend so I'll be right over here if you have any quesitons." The pope went over and started reading and God was working on other matters when some time had passed. Then all of a sudden out of nowhere, God heard the Pope cry out, WHAT! WHAT! YOU MEAN THAT WORD SHOULD HAVE BEEN TRANSLATED CELEBRATE!"
God just smiled!
wkmac
Well-Known Member
And one other note. Moreluck since you asked the question, where did the left/right thingy come from? To my knowledge the actual answer has not been given and thus the goat trail of religion was ventured down with your help I might add. The quick simple answer to the left/right question is the 18th century French Parliment is where those terms come from. The left in the french parliment were the liberals and as the name implied they sat on the left. These folks believed in decentralization of gov't, many like Bastiat believed in individualism and laissez faire while others like Proudhon who also sat on the left believed in mutualism or what was socialism in it's day but understand this socialism was a non-state variety. Proudhon many believe was the first to call himself an anarchist and in the greek word tradition of no ruler. On the right were the monarchists or those who supported a system of State, King and thus privilege. They wanted to conserve or preserve the current traditions of organized state. In others words, in the 18th and 19th century traditions the left of what was once called classical liberals were for limited gov't, free individual and freed markets while the right was for big gov't, big state and a privileged class. American political discourse in the late 19th century and early 20th century took this 2 ideals and turned them on their heads so to speak and now we have what we have. Much, much more to it but that's the quick and simple answer.
IMO, the whole bible thing never had any place in the left/right debate as the question was framed in the first place.
IMO, the whole bible thing never had any place in the left/right debate as the question was framed in the first place.
klein
Für Meno :)
No, I asked about red and blue, why they are backwards from the rest of the world !
MrFedEx
Engorged Member
The born-agains at work believe that the Earth is only 6,000 years old, and have no explanation for evolution. Look at the hand of an ape, and then look at your own. The similarity is striking.
