Non Union Members

[Spiderman]

Then why in the hell am I paying union dues? If these MFKERS can be represented by MY union for free, then why in the hell am I paying for union dues?

When I heard this yesterday I came unglued. So basically my money is saving there ass?!

I have never had a reason for the Union to represent me and I hope I never do....(Maybe I should just quit the union because I know now I am entitled to representation for FREE.) BULL******

It ain't pretty, but in a right to work state, you have right to join or not. Which works better for you?

I don't know why I let this pass till now, but I beg to differ.
In our center we had a 30 year driver who's odometer just quit working during the day, it showed him with like 30 miles on a route that averaged 250-300 miles per day. When he returned to the center he wrote it up on the DVIR and because there was no full time management in the building he asked the OMS/specialist what he should do. The OMS told him to estimate his mileage, he did so. His estimated miles entered was 275. The next morning he talked to the center manager and was told that was OK to do that. 3 months later the odometer still had not been replaced and he had kept writing up the problem and estimating the same miles because his route rarely changed in logistics and he had been told it was OK. They fired him for dishonesty. He missed 2 months work and wages for this atrocity. He reluctantly accepted the company's offer to return him to work without back pay or reinstatement of lost time to his retiement contributions becuase he was afraid an arbitrator would not side with him and he was too close to his planed retirement date. He had always done his job without too much harassment but when they had him over a barrel they exploited the oprotunity. Now, try again to tell me that no one doing their job needs a union.

Him coming back under those conditions, was what he accepted. He would "probably" have gotten back all of his wages and time lost, but that takes faith in the union. Do you have faith in your union?

 

[705red]

I found out today that two of the people that are NON-Union are/were having problems on the PL have been represented by "OUR" union rep! One guy was fired for being late too many days. The other guy that is still here has had an issue with following directions.

My question is this. Why do they represent a NON UNION employee that doesn't pay union?

This is a big problem and why unions are weak! The blood sucking leeches that do not pay dues but reap the same benefits as dues payers. Legally the union has to represent the employee if the employee asks for representation.

teamsters are pushing for a bill to pass that has been mislabeled the free choice bill. If passed it would allow them to hold public votes for unionization. What this means is it would allow them to see who voted for the union and who did not. Once they get that info they can then harrass those who voted against unionization into voting for it. They expect the bill to pass making it much easier to organize those non-union folks. So basically what they are doing is a little marketing to show the non-union folks the benifits of joining. Since people who do thier job do not need unions they off course decided to represent these screw ups.

The company spin master at his best! Bravo Tie, I haven't seen this much B.S out of you in a while, that is until I scrolled down a little!

there are exceptions to every rule but generally those who are the screw ups are those that need a union.

Keep in mind most of the world is non-union and those people generally live in the same neighborhoods we live in and somehow seem to survive without the mighty union protecting them.

Those people make wages that are as much or more as we make and beni's as good or better as ours.

The union tells you what a great job they do but in many ways the beni's for non-union employees at ups are better.

Many companies keep their compensation and benifits at a certain level to ensure their employees do not become dissatisfied and join a union. So in reality the threat of unionization may do more for employee compensation plans then unionization itself.

I'm in a center of 78 drivers and a building that has close to 400 package car. There is not 1 driver in my center that i have not sat in on for one reason or another, mostly b.s. I represent more good employees for making a simple mistake here and there, which will happen eventually. We are HUMAN beings and do make mistakes from time to time. We are not programmed robots like the management team!

I'm not taking the argument that far 804 just making the point that most of the world survives without a union protecting them and somehow lives in the same neighborhood as us and drives the same cars.

Most of the world benefits form the union being around! Before unions, you did not have paid vacations, paid holidays, over time pay, medical benefits, pensions, 401ks, etc no one even new what a weekend was until unions created it!

We don't know that. Anti-union comes from management who manages CBUs... I am pro-union, but I can at least see why management seems cold-hearted towards union.

Operational management gets more frustrated with their labor department over the contract. Here when we negotiated the contract we had working members like myself and others that do the job on a daily basis on our negotiating team. While ups had only labor reps, and finance guys. They had no one from everyday operations.

The sups that are really pissed because they cant fire someone just because they do not like them are the ones that have no integrity anyways!

 

[705red]

The retirees could have just as easily brought the lawsuit without the unions help. It would seem to be logical that the union would argue the case in court since they were the ones that were supposed to be watching the shop.

We where watching the shop, and in doing so we caught ups shop lifting right out of the pockets of the retiree's! The only thing we did not have was the surveillance video of the act in progress.

But you still claim that we as employees do not need a union! Really? Look at what ups does when they know we have an agency to protect our rights! What would ups do if it was every man for themselves?

 

[705red]

I was commenting on your statement that non union benifits at UPS are better.

Overall they are.

LMFAO! How much of a raise did you get this year? How's that 401k match going? How much of last years stock can you sell this year? How much do you pay for medical?

Your right tie its better to be non union! HAHAHAHAHAHAHA

 

[trplnkl]

Him coming back under those conditions, was what he accepted. He would "probably" have gotten back all of his wages and time lost, but that takes faith in the union. Do you have faith in your union?

In his situation "probably" is a huge word, one that he really couldn't afford to challenge.
No, I do not have complete faith in the union, but they are all we have in situations as this.

 

[UpstateNYUPSer(Ret)]

Trp, you make some excellent points and your real life example brings it home. My point was that the need for a union presence is not as great as it was during the early 20th century IMO.

In our local, we do have the option to opt out of the union but we still have to pay 99.44% of the monthly dues so opting out just does not make sense.

 

[trplnkl]

Trp, you make some excellent points and your real life example brings it home. My point was that the need for a union presence is not as great as it was during the early 20th century IMO.
Thank you, I don't disagree that the union presence is no where as critical as the early 1900's, and for many companies a union just helps put them under. i.e. some of the freight lines that no longer exist. However for companies such as UPS and the Big Three in Detroit, yeah I think they are needed. Although I think the UAW needs to get a grip on reality and back off a little. A blind man can see that the auto makers are in big trouble. If UPS was in the same shape as GM, I would ask them to lower my wages till the crisis is over and then afterward reinstate it to where it would be without the crisis.

In our local, we do have the option to opt out of the union but we still have to pay 99.44% of the monthly dues so opting out just does not make sense.

NYS is classified as a union state, I guess maybe it's the 99.44% is what keeps it that way.

 

[tieguy]

This a classic example of 'A rising tide lifts all boats'. The higher wages and benefits and better working conditions forced on companies by unions had the effect of the tide coming in and now non union companies pay comparable wages, benefits, etc, -yes- TO KEEP THE UNION OUT. TrplNkl made this point but it seems to have slipped by. The reason that there is a large middle class in this country is directly attributable to the unions and you did not have to be a union member to benefit from it. Professionals (engineers, etc) and members of lower management also benefited. How long could upper management get away with paying their professional workforce and lower management less than their labor?

The market will always pay what the market will allow. A fine example now exists with the automakers and the steel mills. Your unions have gotten them some terrific pay and benifits however you actually have to keep your job to enjoy them. Working continously at a lesser rate may actually be better for you then working intermittingly at a higher one.

Market pays what the market allows. The union was a powerful force and did much to improve overall working conditions for labor a 100 years ago. In todays world however it may actually be a liability as evidenced by the number of manufactoring jobs or jobs in general that have moved out of country.

 

[UPSNewbie]

The market will always pay what the market will allow. A fine example now exists with the automakers and the steel mills. Your unions have gotten them some terrific pay and benifits however you actually have to keep your job to enjoy them. Working continously at a lesser rate may actually be better for you then working intermittingly at a higher one.

Market pays what the market allows. The union was a powerful force and did much to improve overall working conditions for labor a 100 years ago. In todays world however it may actually be a liability as evidenced by the number of manufactoring jobs or jobs in general that have moved out of country.

The way I see it: if unions had the best interests for BOTH the company and CBU, there wouldn't be such negativity about them. Some unions need to stop trying to ask for the moon.

 

[tieguy]

I don't know why I let this pass till now, but I beg to differ.
In our center we had a 30 year driver who's odometer just quit working during the day, it showed him with like 30 miles on a route that averaged 250-300 miles per day. When he returned to the center he wrote it up on the DVIR and because there was no full time management in the building he asked the OMS/specialist what he should do. The OMS told him to estimate his mileage, he did so. His estimated miles entered was 275. The next morning he talked to the center manager and was told that was OK to do that. 3 months later the odometer still had not been replaced and he had kept writing up the problem and estimating the same miles because his route rarely changed in logistics and he had been told it was OK. They fired him for dishonesty. He missed 2 months work and wages for this atrocity. He reluctantly accepted the company's offer to return him to work without back pay or reinstatement of lost time to his retiement contributions becuase he was afraid an arbitrator would not side with him and he was too close to his planed retirement date. He had always done his job without too much harassment but when they had him over a barrel they exploited the oprotunity. Now, try again to tell me that no one doing their job needs a union.

I have EEOC for age discrimination. I have Osha for health or working condition issues. I have a grievance process that can go all the way to an impartial arbitrator. I have lawyers to sue the company if I choose to bypass the arbitration process. I have a benifity package that is superior to what the overall union package would provide me. why the heck would I possibly want a union so I can recieve less and pay them union dues?

Your example happened in a union shop. Its actually an example of how your driver did not get what he paid for in that union shop. So you're right he paid the union his dues all those years and was short changed by them when it came time to deliver.

Its an argument against unionism trp not for it.

 

[tieguy]

Europe is almost %80 union and they have a higher standard of living then us Americans. The rest of the world? Do you mean South America, Africa, Asia? They do not live in the same neighborhoods as us and have terrible working/living qualities.

I'm sorry I have family in europe and I can honestly tell you that you would find thier standard of living unacceptable compared to ours. Many of you that I speak to here or on the side would not be able to afford a house and property comparable to what you own here. Thier socialized health care plan is one where you wait a year to get required surgery that is then performed by a doctor with inferior skills to what we have here. My cousin still carries a hideous scar on his abdomen from his state provided surgery. Unionism is another form of socialism. Socialism plain and simple sucks.

 

[tieguy]

This is a big problem and why unions are weak! The blood sucking leeches that do not pay dues but reap the same benefits as dues payers. Legally the union has to represent the employee if the employee asks for representation.



The company spin master at his best! Bravo Tie, I haven't seen this much B.S out of you in a while, that is until I scrolled down a little!



I'm in a center of 78 drivers and a building that has close to 400 package car. There is not 1 driver in my center that i have not sat in on for one reason or another, mostly b.s. I represent more good employees for making a simple mistake here and there, which will happen eventually. We are HUMAN beings and do make mistakes from time to time. We are not programmed robots like the management team!




Most of the world benefits form the union being around! Before unions, you did not have paid vacations, paid holidays, over time pay, medical benefits, pensions, 401ks, etc no one even new what a weekend was until unions created it!



Operational management gets more frustrated with their labor department over the contract. Here when we negotiated the contract we had working members like myself and others that do the job on a daily basis on our negotiating team. While ups had only labor reps, and finance guys. They had no one from everyday operations.

The sups that are really pissed because they cant fire someone just because they do not like them are the ones that have no integrity anyways!

And Bravo back my red headed friend tdu has corrupted your mind and soul. Shall I call and exorcist so you may once again learn to enjoy the benifits of independent thought?

 

[tieguy]

We where watching the shop, and in doing so we caught ups shop lifting right out of the pockets of the retiree's! The only thing we did not have was the surveillance video of the act in progress.

But you still claim that we as employees do not need a union! Really? Look at what ups does when they know we have an agency to protect our rights! What would ups do if it was every man for themselves?

Red I'm sorry its true. You guys were supposed to watch the shop and secure a deal that did not require court action. Once court action is required they really did not need you. They can hire a lawyer just as easily as you can. Still dissapointed you did not have the guts to carry through on all your big threats when this first came out. Oh well it sounded good anyway.

 

[tieguy]

LMFAO! How much of a raise did you get this year? How's that 401k match going? How much of last years stock can you sell this year? How much do you pay for medical?

Your right tie its better to be non union! HAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Roflmao. Enjoy while you can. I have a couple hundred grand in my 401 K plan. last time I checked ups put about 45 percent of that money in there. How much did they put in your 401 K plan my friend.

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahhahahahahhahaahahahahhahahahhahahahahahahahahah

Better yet mr. union representative be a man and tell your union brothers why the union refuses to negotiate a match for thier people.

whats that the union wants to control the money.

ooops sorry union members guess we'll just screw you out of a good retirement so the union can control the pension money.
thank red everyone hes the one fighting for the union.

 

[Fnix]

I'm sorry I have family in europe and I can honestly tell you that you would find thier standard of living unacceptable compared to ours. Many of you that I speak to here or on the side would not be able to afford a house and property comparable to what you own here. Thier socialized health care plan is one where you wait a year to get required surgery that is then performed by a doctor with inferior skills to what we have here. My cousin still carries a hideous scar on his abdomen from his state provided surgery. Unionism is another form of socialism. Socialism plain and simple sucks.

Dont recall seeing any slums in Germany. Everyone had the same quality of living whether they were a baker or a doctor. There were no polar extremes in living quality like here.

 

[local804]

Dont recall seeing any slums in Germany. Everyone had the same quality of living whether they were a baker or a doctor. There were no polar extremes in living quality like here.

I like in Italy that the town shuts down for a few hours for dinner. No work, just family time. When dinner is over, they go back to work. I guess thats why they say Italians make better lovers.

 

[tieguy]

Dont recall seeing any slums in Germany. Everyone had the same quality of living whether they were a baker or a doctor. There were no polar extremes in living quality like here.

I stand corrected if paying half your check to the state and suffering through inferior health care and paying an arm and a leg for a small house with a tiny yard next to a factory is your idea of a superior lifestyle then you're good. I am curious though will you be selling everything you have and moving to take advantage of this superior lifestyle?

 

[bluehdmc]

Roflmao. Enjoy while you can. I have a couple hundred grand in my 401 K plan. last time I checked ups put about 45 percent of that money in there. How much did they put in your 401 K plan my friend.

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahhahahahahhahaahahahahhahahahhahahahahahahahahah

Better yet mr. union representative be a man and tell your union brothers why the union refuses to negotiate a match for thier people.

whats that the union wants to control the money.

ooops sorry union members guess we'll just screw you out of a good retirement so the union can control the pension money.
thank red everyone hes the one fighting for the union.

Ask the ex-enron employees about 401k plans, yes your's may be better. Also you've mentioned "portability" but how many years do you have to be in before the companies match is vested.
Also I kind think the days of unions giving pension funds to the mob are pretty much over.
You mentioned how well you and your neighbors have it. A couple of them are engineers. As far as I know engineers, unless they run a locomotive are professionals and usually make much more than a "blue" (or brown) collar worker. I would think so if he can afford a $300K addition to his home.
I don't believe most union workers can afford that sort of thing.
You keep trying to compare yourself to the union worker. By your own identity you are "tieguy", maybe I'm wrong but I'm assuming you're in a management position. They traditionally are not union positions. Basically the only "professionals" that are in a union are teachers. Do you think many of them would "opt out" of their union?
You are really trying to compare your and your neighbors postions, (apples) to the working mans, rank and file. (oranges). There are no comparisons. Package car drivers, feeder drivers, loaders, mechanics, porters, etc that work for UPS are all involved in physical labor, yes there is a certain mental aspect to it, but overall that kind of work can be quantified by how many stops, miles, pm's, packages loaded, toilets cleaned, etc.

Managements work can't be judged that way, other standards are used, granted packages delivered is the overall goal, but the building engineer is judged by wether everthing works that's supposed to. LP is judged by what isn't lost. Automotive managers are judged by breakdowns or lack there of. Sales people are judge by lead sold etc.

You can't compare the two.
The original poster complained that the union was representing two non-union workers. I still have not gotten an answer as to whether or not non union individuals pay a representation fee? Usually this is the case, it is not as much as full dues, and they are not allowed to vote for stewards, etc.

As to your comments about "inferior health care", consider yourself lucky that a: you haven,t suffered any severe illnesses. b: you haven't been a victim of malpractice.
I've experienced both, have had to wait long times in doctors offices, (do they do this intentionally, or just overbook?)

Ask someone who's lost their job, and can't afford cobra payments about health care, and whether they might want socialized medicine.

Although I'll grant you we have this huge work force around the health care industry, the insurance companies, the pharmaceutical companies, the lobbyists for the pharmaceutical companies and the insurance companies.

Of course you don't have to go far to compare socialized medicine, just ask any Canadian about it. Maybe if you have to go to a specialist there may be waits and problems, but for the sniffles etc, I don't see them rushing across the border.

 

[pickup]

I have EEOC for age discrimination. I have Osha for health or working condition issues. I have a grievance process that can go all the way to an impartial arbitrator. I have lawyers to sue the company if I choose to bypass the arbitration process. I have a benifity package that is superior to what the overall union package would provide me. why the heck would I possibly want a union so I can recieve less and pay them union dues?

Your example happened in a union shop. Its actually an example of how your driver did not get what he paid for in that union shop. So you're right he paid the union his dues all those years and was short changed by them when it came time to deliver.

Its an argument against unionism trp not for it.

Isn't EEOC a result of governmental legislation and don't you interpret e.e.o.c as unwarranted interference with the way a business conducts its operations? Also, osha is another governmental agency under the aegis of the labor department. It is also well known that the osha does not have enough inspectors to thoroughly police industry but instead its greatest impact comes from the complaints of workers. And workers are more likely to call osha if they are protected by a union and/if they can use a shop steward (who has the testicular fortitude , knowledge and experience) to file the complaint for them.

I am surprised that you are relying on these government interfering laws to protect yourself.(given your implied political leanings) One can argue that it increases the cost of business which makes it more attractive to locate your business (if you can ) in another country that does not have all this "petty and unnecessary" legislation. After all, maybe one day ups would like to get rid of you because you reached a certain age at which there studies show managers lose their efficiency,i.e. grow long in the tooth. Yet you would use e.e.o.c to counter their wishes to treat you as an at will employee. If you are relying on e.e.o.c for your protection , be sure to include a mental thanks to the labor movement( of which the "hated unions" were and are an integral part) . Same goes for osha.

Respectfully submitted tie guy, ( i may not agree with all your posts, but you're a pretty good writer)

 

[Smhemi]

Mr TieGuy I Have a ? for You. If you were offered a Job by Fedex and Ups To be a full time driver, what job would you take and why.I Have a funny feeling Mr anti union will take the union job