Revisiting the Legal Concept of "Independent Contractor"

[bbsam]

My, my, Indy. Sounds like Ground wasn't for you. Let's see...I've delivered out of a minivan, pickup truck, learned every route in the building. Acquired almost all my routes through growth, run supplementals, designed the basis for what became the company's time off program. Sold a route for $100K, bought a route for $40k. Currently run about 100 stops per day sub-contracted to me by other ISP's. Am on the safety committee, have recently implemented a kick-ass safety plan, renegotiated once and have to drive very, very seldom. I think my experience has been more positive than yours.

 

[M I Indy]

Was HD, glad we made it a better situation for you folks today, just broke my heart watching soccer moms, retirees, young parents (that is who the original HD ads targeted), get their lives turned upside down by the claim "control your destiny" (header on the ad) I had to leave. Your experience definitely is more positive today. What exactly did you sell and buy other than a 100 page document and a vehicle, (a job), with only of course, principals ok? Where else can you take your "business"? In my day, multiples were not allowed because it would give too much (control) of terminal to one contractor. I tried, was in on ground (no pun intended) floor I thought, and that is what I was told. Yes, I was there in the beginning. So much for our independence, good luck and have a plan B ready. Look at recent Maine decision, only 30 + states to go, think principal is going to pay out of their pockets, or take it out of you the agents pocket?

 

[thedownhillEXPRESS]

My, my, Indy. Sounds like Ground wasn't for you. Let's see...I've delivered out of a minivan, pickup truck, learned every route in the building. Acquired almost all my routes through growth, run supplementals, designed the basis for what became the company's time off program. Sold a route for $100K, bought a route for $40k. Currently run about 100 stops per day sub-contracted to me by other ISP's. Am on the safety committee, have recently implemented a kick-ass safety plan, renegotiated once and have to drive very, very seldom. I think my experience has been more positive than yours.

AND you have made it to moderator status!
The highest level of respect ever for a ground person anywhere anytime..

 

[bbsam]

AND you have made it to moderator status!
The highest level of respect ever for a ground person anywhere anytime..

Don't forget husband and father.

 

[HomeDelivery]

there is some flexibility w/ some contractors, as stated in my experience on page 2...

one contractor has a handful of peak temp drivers that wants to work only PT, so when one of his FTers need a Sat off for his kid's baseball game, he can grant it easily

In my day, multiples were not allowed because it would give too much (control) of terminal to one contractor.

kinda true, the hub doesn't want 1 contractor controlling 1/2 the building...

http://mygroundbiz.com/files/IndependentTimes-09/ConInc_OA Assignments_051211.pdf

page 2 sorta stated that point...

as far as the shift from IC to ISP, i think those states that were seeing a high amount of lawsuits shifted their plan to cover FedEx's best interest only
my state is still IC and i still see some single owner-operators out there

 

[M I Indy]

Agree with hub control point, I just wanted area next to mine since vehicle (van) they told me I had to purchase (no other option) was deemed too small 9 mos. later, willing to buy bigger new approved sized truck and route from soccer mom who had no idea what she got into and wanted out after 1 month, to help with van on big or bulk packages. Couldn't get it since only 8 or 9 routes in terminal, too much control for me, mgmt. said. Watched newbie come in with same truck I wanted to purchase and get route for free. Soccer mom was stuck with truck, sold it to handy man at a loss. So much for independence back then. I just wanted to plant a seed in the garden.

 

[MrFedEx]

My, my, Indy. Sounds like Ground wasn't for you. Let's see...I've delivered out of a minivan, pickup truck, learned every route in the building. Acquired almost all my routes through growth, run supplementals, designed the basis for what became the company's time off program. Sold a route for $100K, bought a route for $40k. Currently run about 100 stops per day sub-contracted to me by other ISP's. Am on the safety committee, have recently implemented a kick-ass safety plan, renegotiated once and have to drive very, very seldom. I think my experience has been more positive than yours.

You are the Golden One. And now, also their spokesperson. Again, why did it take 66 pages (in 2002) to detail how you are not completely directed by FedEx? I'm reading it as I get time. How about a more current version as well? Is that 166 pages of how they don't tell you what to do?

 

[bbsam]

keep reading.

 

[STFXG]

Agree with hub control point, I just wanted area next to mine since vehicle (van) they told me I had to purchase (no other option) was deemed too small 9 mos. later, willing to buy bigger new approved sized truck and route from soccer mom who had no idea what she got into and wanted out after 1 month, to help with van on big or bulk packages. Couldn't get it since only 8 or 9 routes in terminal, too much control for me, mgmt. said. Watched newbie come in with same truck I wanted to purchase and get route for free. Soccer mom was stuck with truck, sold it to handy man at a loss. So much for independence back then. I just wanted to plant a seed in the garden.

Sounds more like they just didn't want to give it to you.

Can't remember the exact number but it's around 25% of a terminal. More when it's a small terminal.



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[MrFedEx]

keep reading.

OK. It will take me awhile. I guess you have it memorized?

 

[M I Indy]

Sounds more like they just didn't want to give it to you.

Can't remember the exact number but it's around 25% of a terminal. More when it's a small terminal.



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It was early 2002, they weren't willing to give up control. I tried to grow my business from day one, terminal tripled within two years, but, was constantly controlled. Was first or second to become multiple, when they wanted, held back for "associating" with weaker contractors and helping them with survival, taking stops, repairs, loans for repairs, etc. One contractor next to me would have 70-80 stops in truck over 10,000 lbs., I would get 110-120 in my van (under 10,000), 10-15 "flexed" from other contractor's route, causing me to double trip. Asked mgmt. why, since my day was now 12+hrs. with loading etc. and his was 9 hrs., answer because we can since you aren't under D.O.T. requirements and you will get it done. I did get it done, everyday, was penalized for helping others, was what I was later told. Yet mgmt. always testifies they comply with D.O.T. regulations. Back then, those under 10,000 lbs. didn't have to file hour sheet, scanners had just been brought in @ HD. Long story short, they controlled me in my so called "business" back then.

 

[White Line]

If FedEx dictates what the contractors are supposed to do then why do they have tattoos, just got out of prison, bulkhead doors open, no uniforms, run their vehicles at stops, throw packages, drive like maniacs, (insert your own Ground observations).

This doesn't sound like direction and control that makes them employees. These examples support the definition of contractor. The Express members of this board constantly state that Express employees would be fired for these offenses, yet this is not the case at Ground.

Yes this is very true, I prefer to wear Levis , t shirt (sometimes the grey button up FedEx shirt depending on what mood I am in) a ball cap that says anything but FedEx on it, work boots and my trusty Carhartt jacket, that is my uniform of the day for my linehaul run, our dispatch doesn't enforce the uniform regs at our terminal.

 

[thedownhillEXPRESS]

Now most Ground terminals have a 10,000 pound driver

 

[White Line]

It was early 2002, they weren't willing to give up control. I tried to grow my business from day one, terminal tripled within two years, but, was constantly controlled. Was first or second to become multiple, when they wanted, held back for "associating" with weaker contractors and helping them with survival, taking stops, repairs, loans for repairs, etc. One contractor next to me would have 70-80 stops in truck over 10,000 lbs., I would get 110-120 in my van (under 10,000), 10-15 "flexed" from other contractor's route, causing me to double trip. Asked mgmt. why, since my day was now 12+hrs. with loading etc. and his was 9 hrs., answer because we can since you aren't under D.O.T. requirements and you will get it done. I did get it done, everyday, was penalized for helping others, was what I was later told. Yet mgmt. always testifies they comply with D.O.T. regulations. Back then, those under 10,000 lbs. didn't have to file hour sheet, scanners had just been brought in @ HD. Long story short, they controlled me in my so called "business" back then.

Well a lot has changed since then, I have not seen contractors held back from growing at my terminal, as long as the freight is there to justify it, and as a example with out mentioning any names I know of a linehaul contractor at one of the Ground hubs out here on the west coast who is currently running upwards of 29 trucks out of his domicile, he did this by doing multiple corporations with 5 trucks per corporation, he even may be over that 25% number but I am not sure about that.

 

[White Line]

Here is what I will say about it, some of you are saying that Ground exhibits a certain amount of control over us, where the way I see it it's just requirements that we have to meet in order to contract with them, if at any point and time I disagree with their requirements I am free to leave and revoke my contract and take my trucks else where, the worse that can happen is they keep the $1000 escrow, so what big deal, I have had to spend more on tires or what not in one day that's just the way I look at it, but opinions vary.

 

[MrFedEx]

Here is what I will say about it, some of you are saying that Ground exhibits a certain amount of control over us, where the way I see it it's just requirements that we have to meet in order to contract with them, if at any point and time I disagree with their requirements I am free to leave and revoke my contract and take my trucks else where, the worse that can happen is they keep the $1000 escrow, so what big deal, I have had to spend more on tires or what not in one day that's just the way I look at it, but opinions vary.

What really matters is how a court of law sees the degree of control. I look at Ground as a FedEx-run operation that has ISPs and ICs there as pawns. Sure, they do the work, but FedEx is running the show, and calling the shots as to how the business runs, acceptable conduct, service levels etc. What I see, and hear (anecdotally from this site), is that ICs and ISPs are held to ever more strict standards and disciplined like employees. That discipline flows downhill directly to the drivers. So, FedEx is really the ringmaster of the Ground circus. They know it, Sammy knows it, and the drivers know it. Eventually, the courts will catch-up.

 

[bbsam]

What really matters is how a court of law sees the degree of control. I look at Ground as a FedEx-run operation that has ISPs and ICs there as pawns. Sure, they do the work, but FedEx is running the show, and calling the shots as to how the business runs, acceptable conduct, service levels etc. What I see, and hear (anecdotally from this site), is that ICs and ISPs are held to ever more strict standards and disciplined like employees. That discipline flows downhill directly to the drivers. So, FedEx is really the ringmaster of the Ground circus. They know it, Sammy knows it, and the drivers know it. Eventually, the courts will catch-up.

The courts are going to look at documents signed by two entities. Compared to that, anecdotal evidence will fall flat. And if it doesn't, FedEx will again adjust the model. You know it. They've done it time and again. They've become good at it. You seem to have a notion that one day all contractor models will be found to be illegal but there's no evidence that is even close to being reality. That also is something you know.

 

[IVE GOTTA PACKAGE 4U]

The courts are going to look at documents signed by two entities. Compared to that, anecdotal evidence will fall flat. And if it doesn't, FedEx will again adjust the model. You know it. They've done it time and again. They've become good at it. You seem to have a notion that one day all contractor models will be found to be illegal but there's no evidence that is even close to being reality. That also is something you know.

 

[bbsam]

You are the closest anyone on here has ever come to actually striking against FedEx. Congratulations!

 

[IVE GOTTA PACKAGE 4U]

You are the closest anyone on here has ever come to actually striking against FedEx. Congratulations!

Thats why, Fred doesnt like me!