RTW passes in Michigan

[Macbrother]

Quite right, and conversely what you work for.

So the hard working PT'ers who bust their ass putting up with not only the belt but UPS management who also show up on time should be penalized by the only other riff raff UPS can scrounge to work at such low wages, right? Makes sense, what do you care anyway, right?

What I have said all along is that this job will pay off the longer you stick with it. I guess 5 years seems like an eternity to you, but I assure you it isn't. It takes roughly 10 years for the average employee to reach top pay in the fulltime/driver ranks. This is not unreasonable considering all the other factors. Next you will be wanting full retirement for p/t after 15 years, half as much as a Driver since they get roughly half the pension payment. Or maybe full pension payment since they contribute half as many hours but work just as many years. Step back and see how unreasonable your pay demands are.

And the current state of affairs is reasonable? Same starting pay after 10 years? No, I won't be wanting retirement after 15 years. All I really want is pay that is commensurate for what we do. I suppose you wouldn't mind if starting PT pay stayed at 8.50 for another 10 years as long as you were cashing your big checks. You speak union and solidarity yet are utterly unconcerned by the massive gulf between PT and FT which grows wider with each passing year.

 

[anonymous4]

Yes, part-timers are literally mentally handicapped people. All of us. At what point do the negotiators say alright, we're going to fight for a .15 cent twi/night pay differential but it will be strictly for full-timers, the punk kids working 11 am - 4 am should not be privy to such a thing. I read all the time that part-timers need to get off their ass and do something if they want change. And the only response to that is it will NEVER happen because it can't. You know this 104feeder.

The union has done zero to inform new hires even of basic union practices. They have failed in every area right down to providing contracts for new union workers. There is absolutely no education provided and dare I say there is almost a feeling of the union TRYING to alienate part-timers. There are so many little things that could be done right from the start of a persons career at UPS to get them involved with union activities. Right now ask a new hire how he feels about the union. All it is to most is a negative that pulls 30$ out of their paycheck every week. Is that not a failure on the part of the union? This is why things seem twisted and treasonous to my eyes. Too many things the union does ends up working in the favor of UPS.

When RTW spreads to every state and 50% of the work force tells the union to kick dirt, what then? Don't tell me fedex is there if I'm not happy with my wage and benefits. You should be ashamed to say such things considering your pay in comparison to a fedex driver. This is about one group of workers who make a very good living and are therefore vested in interest, taking as much of the pie as they can because another group has no voice and will never have a voice, seemingly just the way the "union" and company like it. I don't think full-timers should have to give up a pay raise, to me that is a slippery slope and you might find yourselves stuck at that rate for the next two decades too.

 

[rudy5150]

[h=2][/h][h=1]Part-Time Poverty by the Numbers[/h] November 21, 2012: Part-time wages are at an all-time low at UPS. How much do part-timers deserve a raise? Consider these facts:

• The starting rate of $8.50 is less than minimum wage in some states.
• Before 1982, part-timers made the same wages as full-timers. That year, the starting rate was cut to $8. It has gone up just 50¢ in 30 years.
• If part-time wages had just kept up with inflation, then the starting wage for part-timers today would be $19.18.
• Today's starting wage of $8.50 is worth just $3.71 in 1982 dollars.
• In the last contract, UPS part-timers went backwards. New employees now have to wait one year to get medical benefits, 18 months for family coverage.
• UPS will make more than $4 billion this year. Half of UPS employees are part-timers. It's time to end part-time poverty at UPS.

 

[Catatonic]

Part-Time Poverty by the Numbers

November 21, 2012: Part-time wages are at an all-time low at UPS. How much do part-timers deserve a raise? Consider these facts:

• The starting rate of $8.50 is less than minimum wage in some states.
• Before 1982, part-timers made the same wages as full-timers. That year, the starting rate was cut to $8. It has gone up just 50¢ in 30 years.
• If part-time wages had just kept up with inflation, then the starting wage for part-timers today would be $19.18.
• Today's starting wage of $8.50 is worth just $3.71 in 1982 dollars.
• In the last contract, UPS part-timers went backwards. New employees now have to wait one year to get medical benefits, 18 months for family coverage.
• UPS will make more than $4 billion this year. Half of UPS employees are part-timers. It's time to end part-time poverty at UPS.

So if I get the gist of what you are saying is that friend/T should be making $19.18/hr and the P/T get the savings from that allocated to them?
That probably will not happen.

What if friend/T reduced their total compensation by $5.00/hr and the savings to that allocated to P/Timers?

 

[104Feeder]

I certainly do enjoy your posts, and would like to see more members become as knowledgeable as yourself on the issues. While D.R.I.V.E. is the political action arm of the Teamsters, there probably are instances on mostly the local level where dues receipts are used for what could be argued as political action. It is these actions that brought about lawsuits that eventually became known as "Beck Rights". Any union employee, even in non-RTW states can enforce their "Beck Rights" and their local is made to have what used to be called a "Beck audit", after which the member would only be libel for such dues that don't support political action. Picnics, depending on the reason, like getting nonmembers in RTW states to sign up to pay dues would most likely be OK, as would coffee and donuts for regularly scheduled meetings.

Of course, but in our Local we have always put our expenditures on the overhead projector at every General Membership meeting and every member in good standing has the right to question it line by line. At no time have I ever seen any expenditures that could even be remotely construed as political activities. Again it goes back to members not taking part in the Local and just bitching about it from afar. The way these guys twist things putting out voter registration forms on the table during a meeting is construed as political activity.

 

[104Feeder]

So the hard working PT'ers who bust their ass putting up with not only the belt but UPS management who also show up on time should be penalized by the only other riff raff UPS can scrounge to work at such low wages, right? Makes sense, what do you care anyway, right?


And the current state of affairs is reasonable? Same starting pay after 10 years? No, I won't be wanting retirement after 15 years. All I really want is pay that is commensurate for what we do. I suppose you wouldn't mind if starting PT pay stayed at 8.50 for another 10 years as long as you were cashing your big checks. You speak union and solidarity yet are utterly unconcerned by the massive gulf between PT and FT which grows wider with each passing year/

The starting pay was the same for almost 20 years prior to that, so I guess you have a ways to go. After the progression now you should be looking at driving within a year and then will have to go through a 3 year progression there. The Driving progression increased from 6 months to 2 years when I went through it to the 3 years today. I don't doubt that increasing that progression is on the table now as our wages are so high. I busted my butt for 6 years making less than your progression top rate now, so yeah; suck it up and do your time.

 

[104Feeder]

Yes, part-timers are literally mentally handicapped people. All of us. At what point do the negotiators say alright, we're going to fight for a .15 cent twi/night pay differential but it will be strictly for full-timers, the punk kids working 11 am - 4 am should not be privy to such a thing. I read all the time that part-timers need to get off their ass and do something if they want change. And the only response to that is it will NEVER happen because it can't. You know this 104feeder.
Sure it can, but there are costs associated with that. If enough of you part timers were to vote down the next Contract we could be looking at either sending it back to be renegotiated or striking. If the raise for p/t starting pay means the Drivers are going to have to take a haircut (and knowing that most of them already went through the p/t progression to get where they are now) you aren't going to get a lot of sympathy. But hey, more power to ya if you can pull it together. Our Contract meetings weren't filled with part timers screaming about raising the starting pay or the progression.

The union has done zero to inform new hires even of basic union practices. They have failed in every area right down to providing contracts for new union workers. There is absolutely no education provided and dare I say there is almost a feeling of the union TRYING to alienate part-timers. There are so many little things that could be done right from the start of a persons career at UPS to get them involved with union activities. Right now ask a new hire how he feels about the union. All it is to most is a negative that pulls 30$ out of their paycheck every week. Is that not a failure on the part of the union? This is why things seem twisted and treasonous to my eyes. Too many things the union does ends up working in the favor of UPS.
Again, we're not here to hold your hand. The Company is supposed to inform us when they hold and orientation so we can make a presentation. In all my years of being a Steward they have never once informed me of any. Here's a novel idea: Go down to your Hall and ask someone for a Contract (and get a copy of your Bylaws too). Ask about the 'basic Union practices' you are uninformed about. Ask who your Steward is, then ask them what you need to know. No Steward? Step up and become one. When I was hired, no one was at my orientation either. I didn't know who my Steward was either. I never saw a B.A. nor did I know what one was. That wasn't the Union's fault, it was my fault because UPS was just a job getting me through school then & I could have cared less (much like most of the part timers today). One day someone handed me a "Teamster Part Time Survival Guide" that I read and opened my eyes to a lot of things. I filed my first grievance for supervisors doing what should have been my work and my application with it. After the Strike the Company really turned the heat up on us drivers. Before that it had been a pretty respectable working relationship. Instead of blaming the Union for not fixing the problem, I stepped up and became a Steward and started fixing problems myself. You should do the same.

Education takes money. We had one large Steward Seminar when i first became one which cost quite a bit to put on. We can't afford another one right now and have trouble even getting everyone together on a Saturday when we plan informal ones. RTW States just don't have the extra funds to provide what you are asking and that is the intention. One of our best Stewards left for 6 months to become a BA for the local. It was only temporary and he came back as soon as he could. They could only afford to pay a straight 40 at our rate now, which was more than what they typically paid BA's. He said it wasn't worth it with the stress & 14 hour days 5 days a week plus meetings on Saturdays. You want more representation? Expect that $30 to triple.


When RTW spreads to every state and 50% of the work force tells the union to kick dirt, what then? Don't tell me fedex is there if I'm not happy with my wage and benefits. You should be ashamed to say such things considering your pay in comparison to a fedex driver. This is about one group of workers who make a very good living and are therefore vested in interest, taking as much of the pie as they can because another group has no voice and will never have a voice, seemingly just the way the "union" and company like it. I don't think full-timers should have to give up a pay raise, to me that is a slippery slope and you might find yourselves stuck at that rate for the next two decades too.

We start to die a slow death is what then. Fedex might be a better deal at that point. You say you have no voice but you have a vote just like everyone else. It's up to you to organize your faction if you want more clout. Perhaps you should start learning Organizing 101 and stop blaming the Union for your problems. You are the Union. Feeder Drivers get what they want because whenever their apple cart gets upset they are blowing up the BA & Union hall voice mail (and mine too). They are down at the Hall demanding a meeting. Package drivers start stuffing the Union box with grievances when they aren't happy. Part time apparently just bitch on the Internet.

Everybody will be getting the same wage increases as they always have since the Company is profitable. I doubt the starting wage is going to go up much if at all.

 

[anonymous4]

This is a throw away job the first few years you are here due to the low wages and line of work, the majority will never participate and it is not my life duty to go on such a mission, but the point still remains. It is divide and conqueror and if you don't see that, it's too bad.

I am not sure why you are speaking to me as if I am a typical part-timer with my head in the sand. I am the minority by a large margin. Why doesn't the union hand out "quick union facts" along with the union contract right when they start paying dues? Why is there no basic orientation with a knowledgeable steward? These things cost money you say, I say the top should get their act together because to me, that should be a priority worth the investment. The union doesn't care to have an informed part-time membership. Do you think otherwise? If so, why?

Personally I could care less what the starting wage is or will be. I am here long term and I will have survived through the more difficult PT years. Most aren't here long term, but they are the ones steering the part-time ranks. You care because you make a liveable wage and this is your lifelong career. I have been to several meetings and I was amongst four other part-timers on all occasions. Pathetic. I am not union leadership, I am not in charge of funds or money allocation. I don't want to be either. I have the right to an opinion as I do pay dues however, and I have to say there seems to be a lack of common sense at the top and it is frightening. I will be interested in what happens as RTW inevitably spreads and how the union will attempt to keep it's membership intact.

I file grievances, I try to encourage union participation. Grievances that should be slam dunks get dragged on, leaving me to question why I should place that target on my back when no one around me cares, and more importantly why bother when the union itself seems to pick, choose, trade or stalemate common sense grievances. If I experience this, others must. I have been telling the same supervisor to stop working three times a night for over two months. I have very little to show for it. Sure, I care. Just not enough to go on an epic campaign trying to get one supervisor to stop working and my grievances on that one matter to start having a positive effect. At this point I say to myself, if the process is an impossibility without a monumental effort for what should be simple procedure, screw the union and I will take my money and play elsewhere if given the chance. That is not my failure but the failure of the people who wanted to make change instead of talking about it.

Here is our leadership partying it up with some pt soups instead of holding the company accountable for the most basic of contract violations:

 

[104Feeder]

This is a throw away job the first few years you are here due to the low wages and line of work, the majority will never participate and it is not my life duty to go on such a mission, but the point still remains. It is divide and conqueror and if you don't see that, it's too bad. We're a tad old school at UPS & the Teamsters where we believe sticking around at an Employer for 30+ years and we tailor the payoff accordingly.
I am not sure why you are speaking to me as if I am a typical part-timer with my head in the sand. I am the minority by a large margin. Why doesn't the union hand out "quick union facts" along with the union contract right when they start paying dues? Why is there no basic orientation with a knowledgeable steward? These things cost money you say, I say the top should get their act together because to me, that should be a priority worth the investment. The union doesn't care to have an informed part-time membership. Do you think otherwise? If so, why?
So why haven't you floated that idea at the Hall? Why don't you post up your Facts here in it's own thread and perhaps we can discuss & improve upon them as a group and others can take them to their Local? We have plenty of pamphlets available at the Hall, most produced by the National. I'm sure yours does too. As I said, the Contract is supposed to require the Co. to notify the Union of orientation so we can be present but they don't. Perhaps it's a disconnect in that they 'notify' us by sending something just to the Hall and it never gets to the Stewards. Judging by how swamped the Local can get in a RTW State I'm not surprised. I agree, it's worth the investment but try there is a point of diminishing returns when it comes to dues. People bitch enough when they go up now based on your annual raises. Since RTW allows people to withdraw, they do & then the rest have to pick up the slack or Union has to do with less (most often the latter). I, and the Union, would love to have a fully informed membership, part-time or otherwise. What I'm getting from you is that the Union should be doing it for you and I just don't see why you don't agree that, especially in this day and age of easy access to information via the WWW, that the Membership has no excuse for not becoming informed on their own.

Personally I could care less what the starting wage is or will be. I am here long term and I will have survived through the more difficult PT years. Most aren't here long term, but they are the ones steering the part-time ranks. You care because you make a liveable wage and this is your lifelong career. I have been to several meetings and I was amongst four other part-timers on all occasions. Pathetic. I am not union leadership, I am not in charge of funds or money allocation. I don't want to be either. I have the right to an opinion as I do pay dues however, and I have to say there seems to be a lack of common sense at the top and it is frightening. I will be interested in what happens as RTW inevitably spreads and how the union will attempt to keep it's membership intact.
With the right to an opinion, the right to criticize, comes a responsibility to act. Otherwise you are guilty of complicity. You adequately describe the problem of lack of participation among the part-time ranks. If you want things to change you have to work within, not rag about the coach like a parent at a pop warner game.

I file grievances, I try to encourage union participation. Grievances that should be slam dunks get dragged on, leaving me to question why I should place that target on my back when no one around me cares, and more importantly why bother when the union itself seems to pick, choose, trade or stalemate common sense grievances. If I experience this, others must. I have been telling the same supervisor to stop working three times a night for over two months. I have very little to show for it. Sure, I care. Just not enough to go on an epic campaign trying to get one supervisor to stop working and my grievances on that one matter to start having a positive effect. At this point I say to myself, if the process is an impossibility without a monumental effort for what should be simple procedure, screw the union and I will take my money and play elsewhere if given the chance. That is not my failure but the failure of the people who wanted to make change instead of talking about it.
Don't you think I have experienced this also? Learn to accept incremental change. Grievances get 'lost in the shuffle', put on the back burner because of more pressing issues like terminations etc. Supervisors working is annoying & wrong but not necessarily the most pressing issue. Persistence is key in getting your grievance heard & won and if you don't like how they are being handled become a Steward and handle them yourself. We have several part-timers who individually make well over $10k/yr in Supervisors Working grievances because they are persistent. Of course, they are more interested in getting paid than getting the problem to stop. In the same hub I took a different tack and addressing the sups and the hub manager without ever filing one grievance. Now when I walk through no one touches anything. I'm sure it still goes on somewhere, but not when I'm around. It certainly wasn't fixed overnight but persistence paid off.

Here is our leadership partying it up with some pt soups instead of holding the company accountable for the most basic of contract violations:

I'm sure the hotties must be the p/t sups because I've never seen any Union leaders look remotely like that!

 

[upser92]

I'll probably leave the Union if my state ever becomes RTW, I've had enough funding their liberal bias

 

[Asskicker]

YYYEEESSS!!!! Exactly what I just registered to post about. I have been fighting the issue with the Union who says there is nothing they can do. Do you realize the part timers pay the same dues as the full timeers? 2.5 hours a month. The exact same rate as full timers working 50 or 60 hours a week. We have to fight back. I tried to tell them people were going to drop the Union...they aren't listening. I wrote to the TDU and they won't do anything. I even wrote a letter to Mr. Big shot Hoffa himself. I don't understand why people are voting this corrupt fat **** back in office. He passed the dues hike without a members vote and can passed a dues cut the same way. Spread the word!!!

 

[Asskicker]

This is another contract proposal I submitted. It takes full timers 2 years to reach top scale. I have almost 30 years part time and still am not at top scale. Bull****!!!!

 

[Asskicker]

Then Hoffa should take a pay cut and they should lower part timers dues. Why are we paying for his almost 400,000 salary on our lousy 20 hours a week?

 

[Asskicker]

If you make more then $11 an hour you will pay that rate. Now think about when you have to go on disability. You make 66% of your pay while disabled, then come back to work and have double dues taken out for weeks. It's ridiculous that we pay the same rate in dues as full timers who work 60 hours a week. Don't know about you but we here in Illinois are lucky to get 20 hours a week.

 

[UpstateNYUPSer(Ret)]

The 2.5 is a multiplier---you are not paying the same dues as FTers. Our multiplier is 3 and I pay $90/month for the privilege of being a Teamster.

 

[104Feeder]

If you make more then $11 an hour you will pay that rate. Now think about when you have to go on disability. You make 66% of your pay while disabled, then come back to work and have double dues taken out for weeks. It's ridiculous that we pay the same rate in dues as full timers who work 60 hours a week. Don't know about you but we here in Illinois are lucky to get 20 hours a week.

Generally, people on disability can go to the hall and fill out a form to be put on 'sick dues'. In our local this suspends dues collection while you are out.

It sure is ridiculous that you pay the same rate (but less money) and receive the same benefits huh.

 

[ftballer67]

Yes, part-timers are literally mentally handicapped people. All of us. At what point do the negotiators say alright, we're going to fight for a .15 cent twi/night pay differential but it will be strictly for full-timers, the punk kids working 11 am - 4 am should not be privy to such a thing. I read all the time that part-timers need to get off their ass and do something if they want change. And the only response to that is it will NEVER happen because it can't. You know this 104feeder.

The union has done zero to inform new hires even of basic union practices. They have failed in every area right down to providing contracts for new union workers. There is absolutely no education provided and dare I say there is almost a feeling of the union TRYING to alienate part-timers. There are so many little things that could be done right from the start of a persons career at UPS to get them involved with union activities. Right now ask a new hire how he feels about the union. All it is to most is a negative that pulls 30$ out of their paycheck every week. Is that not a failure on the part of the union? This is why things seem twisted and treasonous to my eyes. Too many things the union does ends up working in the favor of UPS.

When RTW spreads to every state and 50% of the work force tells the union to kick dirt, what then? Don't tell me fedex is there if I'm not happy with my wage and benefits. You should be ashamed to say such things considering your pay in comparison to a fedex driver. This is about one group of workers who make a very good living and are therefore vested in interest, taking as much of the pie as they can because another group has no voice and will never have a voice, seemingly just the way the "union" and company like it. I don't think full-timers should have to give up a pay raise, to me that is a slippery slope and you might find yourselves stuck at that rate for the next two decades too.

You pretty much nailed it!

 

[ftballer67]

Reading the way the full timers in this thread think of part time employees, especially those full timers in union leadership positions, just reaffirms why I'll be opting out at the first chance I get.

I'm happy now RTW passed in Michigan, pretty sure Local 243 will hear the voice of the part timers when we stop paying dues in droves.

 

[Bagels]

Reading the way the full timers in this thread think of part time employees, especially those full timers in union leadership positions, just reaffirms why I'll be opting out at the first chance I get.

I'm happy now RTW passed in Michigan, pretty sure Local 243 will hear the voice of the part timers when we stop paying dues in droves.

PTers outnumber FTers. If PTers wanted their voice to be heard, they merely need to vote. It takes SECONDS to fill out the ballot and drop it back into the mailbox (postage paid already). Yet few PTers can handle this.

 

[ftballer67]

No doubt. I've voted on two contracts and every local election since 2004. That hasn't worked too well in my favor.

If losing the right to vote in elections is the only thing I'm going to lose by opting out, it's really not much of a decision if the 2013 contract is as bad as the last two for part timers in comparison to full timers.