Discussion in 'Current Events' started by 804brown, Jun 11, 2013.
FOCUS | Edward Snowden: Saving Us From the United Stasi of America
Amazing how far people will go to exaggerate the circumstances of the NSA datamining.
In case you missed the facts, the NSA only datamined 3 months of NUMBERS... they did not listen to calls, or store calls. They did not search records.
They only gathered numbers about numbers and looked for suspicious numbers "tied" to middle east sources.
TO show a cartoon with Obama listening to calls is just ridiculous.
The guvment and the media are slurring/creating the details about Snowden...SOP.
'middle school...girlfriend...neighbors...parents...', etc. etc.
Just like B. Manning...
'sexually-confused, loner, depressed, suicidal...'
Gotta love the spin! (can't be bothered with substance or issues, let's just burn the fkr...)
(Check out THIS curtain, it's much more interesting than THAT curtain...)
2 + 2 = 5
Exactly..it is called character assassination. When it comes to whistleblowers/civil liberties, obama is WORSE than bush. If ever there was a program that can be labelled "Orwellian", it surely is this program. " we are not listening to your phone calls or mining your data...we are just collecting it"...LOL...they say it is illegal to look at the data BUT IT IS OK TO COLLECT IT...NO HARM!!! That is orwellian...and that it wrong. Yet it is ironic how when the govt was doing this to the OWS movement NO ONE SPOKE UP....but now "Im shocked, shocked that gambling is going on in this establishment"!!
Sales of the George Orwell book "1984" have spiked 5,800% since this story broke.
I have mixed feelings about Snowden. If he was just a whistle blower I would support him but I am getting the impression he was just doing it for himself and to get attention. For instance his constant interviews slowly leaking a little more information instead of all at once. I am beginning to question his real motives.
One can always question the person and their motives. But the question we should ask if the information that person has brought out in the open makes a difference. In the case of Snowden, it's forcing this country to face a new harsh reality minus the red,white and blue glasses we've long loved to wear. That reality is just what kind of gov't do we have and is that what we want?
Opinions are mixed I'm sure but then they always have when truth is told!
On a side note, as children we were taught that keeping secrets, keeping things hidden or to use a valid word sadly twisted, to occult (means to hide, no devil involved) information and ideas suggested wrong doing and evil possible foul play. Now we embrace the idea almost as national treasure. It's the criminal who operates in the dark and shadows and it's the honest and trustworthy who do all things in the open. To flip a load of bullschitt back at the ones who lay it out, to The State and the NSA, if you have nothing to hide then why all the need for secrecy? Here come the apologists!
In observing the recent threads here in BC on the contract talks, many complained that the union and UPS were keeping the talks hidden or again you could use the word occulted (remember no devil here) and that in the case of union members for whom the union works as fiduciary agent for hire should be making more known to it's members. Of course you always had the union apologists who would step in and defend the union and secrecy at every turn thus defending a created heirarchy of control when the control should be the other way around. The union members demanding more information were right because the Union's job is to act as representative yet the union itself has turned into a type of boss over it's own members thus another departure from what unions are suppose to be and how they work.
The state has the same relationship supposedly with the people and a so called social contract exists to which a consent to govern is implied. This alleged contract asserts "We The People" are the boss and those in gov't act as our hires to serve in the best interests of those who elect them. Yet just like the union, the hires of "We The People" have become the bosses and the "hires" using secrets (hiding the truth) to keep from us becomes imperative in order to maintain power. If we had transparency, if given all the facts, their ability to stay and maintain power (both sides) would be at risk because the people would understand just what these people are when you remove all the layers of whitewash that hides truth.
In my book, whatever personality trait flaws may exist or are created for propaganda reasons and both do apply, Snowden, Thomas Drake, Sibel Edmonds, Julia Davis, Lt. Col. Anthony Shaffer, Bradley Manning, Julian Assange, Daniel Ellsberg et al are all heroes in my book for their own reasons.
Or as Assange use to famously say,
Chris Pyle, Whistleblower on Domestic Spying in 70s, Says Be Wary of Attacks on NSA’s Critics | Democracy Now!
Not at all. Has he or bradley manning for that matter tried to enrich themselves by selling those documents for big bucks to foreign countries?? Has he gratuitiously exposed the identity of any covert agents?? NO and NO. No self interest at all. Actually the opposite is true. They took great personal risk and sacrifice to make their fellow citizens aware of what their own government is doing in the dark!!Their true objective is to educate and create accountability for those in power. Something our corporate media SHOULD be doing itself!!
Exactly what he is getting from this is still very unclear, but now there is talk of him defecting to China so I have to wonder about his true motives. If it was just about principles I wouldn't expect him to have his escape plan so well worked out. And it does seem little of the information he released did any real harm to US other than exposing PRISM, but I am sure foreign intelligence services already knew about that, so it was just news to the public.
FOCUS | The Secret War
My opinion is not formed yet. The fact he went out of the country on one hand is because he would not be able to tell the story here. He would have been droned or something. If he told secrets, which truly hurt our intelligence, then that's a traitor.
Not enough is known yet, and probably never will be.
Naomi Wolf Raises Questions About Snowden. For her, Snowden is just too perfect.
I'm not sure I would call Snowden an American hero, but his actions have helped to alert the American people to just how much privacy they really have in their day to day life.
I also feel there is a distinct difference between Snowden and Bradely Manning. Manning was nothing more than a butt hurt little twit who carelessly and recklessly endangered the lives of countless men and women in uniform. As far as he is concerned I don't want another day in his life to pass that he isn't having to look out past a prison fence or a window with bars enclosing him in. Snowden on the other hand simply confirmed our worst fears and that is we are under constant government surveillance whether we deserved it or not, whether we committed any sort of crime or not we now know that big brother is always listening, and for that I do commend him because now the public backlash is starting. My hope is that this confirmation will cause some real changes in how our government functions and the people we elect to govern. Its also nice to see the Obama administration so roiled up in scandals that it can't get much else done, which is a good thing for this country in the long term. In the end Snowden simply alerted us to what we should have seen coming so for that I wish him the best.
Edward Snowden Demonstrates the Power of Breaking Ranks | PopularResistance.Org
“the individual conscientious objector, the abstainer, and the resister — the one who, as Gandhi said, pits ‘one’s whole soul against the will of a tyrant.’ Not only do the Edward Snowdens of the world help the rest of us see more clearly the realities we are up against — in this case, the institutionalization of unfettered, massive data collection on and profiling of the population — they can shock us into realizing that part of our job description as human beings is our obligation to withdraw our passive or active consent from such policies.”
Edward Snowden Q and A: "The US Government Destroyed Any Possibility of a Fair Trial at Home" | Alternet
Snowden was a traitor. There are procedures for whistleblowers which he ignored to run to China and promote himself in his press releases. The information he released had already been reported so it did no serious harm to national security but did harm international relations. I disagree with the way PRISM was used to spy on US citizens but that is another issue separate from Snowden's actions.
He went to Hong Kong, NOT BEIJING!! Seems you conservatives love all this spying crap and defend it (like when cheney/bush was doing warrantless wiretaps, etc) BUT JUST HATE THE FACT THAT OBAMA IS DOING IT!!
Cheney/Bush has nothing to do with it. And they spied of Foreign nationals as they were authorized to do under the Patriot Act. Not US citizens. Big difference. And Obama greatly expended the original Patriot Act and went far beyond its original intent. And I would still call Snowden a traitor even if Bush was still President.
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