Stupidvisors working...a political debate

[tieguy]

Re: Stupidvisors working...

My, my, my, TIEGUY

How easy can you possibly make it for me??

One of the reasons I posted a quote from a NAZI in WWII was to demonstrate the power of propaganda and its effects on the citizens.

Here it is again and Id like those posters folowing this debate to read it, then read what TIEGUY writes and ask yourself if he ISN'T truly a victim of the very thing Hermann Goering talks about.

“Naturally the common people don't want war; neither in Russia, nor in England, nor in America, nor in Germany. That is understood. But after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country.”
~Hermann Goering~


Peace.

Once again you attempt to associate a quote towards me that is not in any way mine. You're integrity is flapping in the wind.

 

[tieguy]

Re: Stupidvisors working...

You can't be that naive Tie. Do you honestly believe the terrorists are being prevented from attacking us because Bush is in office?

I have two posters to respond to who live with their heads in the sand attempting to maintain a state of complete denial.

The facts are simple. Regardless of whether you agree with the plan , the plan is working.

No further attacks on american soil.

Iraq has settled down. We are winning the hearts and minds of the Iraqi people who are supporting us in fighting the insurgents and the terrorists.

Impossible to deny these results. Bush is the one who is responsible. He shares the blame for the war with congress and he also shares the credit for what is turning into a winning plan.

True leadership requires building a plan on conviction. Bush has provided us with true leadership. You should write bush and thank him for keeping you and your family safe from the terrorists.

 

[BrownShark]

Re: Stupidvisors working...

Iraq has settled down. We are winning the hearts and minds of the Iraqi people who are supporting us in fighting the insurgents and the terrorists.

Impossible to deny these results. Bush is the one who is responsible.

Tieguy,

you continue to astonish the readers with your nonsense. Winning? Settling down? Do you read the headlines coming out of IRAQ??

let me assist you,

Sadr militia battle troops in four Iraqi cities
by Ammar Karim 34 minutes ago


BAGHDAD (AFP) - Moqtada al-Sadr's militiamen Tuesday battled troops in four Iraqi cities on Tuesday, including the capital, as the hardline Shiite cleric threatened a countrywide campaign of civil revolt.

Heavy clashes broke out between Sadr's Mahdi Army fighters in the southern oil city of Basra, killing at least seven people and wounding 48, and in Kut and Hilla, both south of Baghdad, officials said.
As evening fell, Mahdi Army fighters fought with Iraqi and US forces in their Sadr City bastion in eastern Baghdad for the first time since last October, a security official and witnesses told AFP.
Troops had surrounded the sprawling impoverished neighbourhood of two million people and armed Shiite fighters were roaming the streets, a witness said.
The fighting, which severely strains a ceasefire declared by Sadr in late August and renewed last month, prompted the cleric to issue a stern warning that he would launch protests and a nationwide strike if attacks against his movement and "poor people" are not halted.
"We demand that religious and political leaders intervene to stop the attacks on poor people. We call on all Iraqis to launch protests across all the provinces.
"If the government does not respect these demands, the second step will be general civil disobedience in Baghdad and the Iraqi provinces," Sadr said in a statement read by his representative Hazam al-Aaraji in the holy city of Najaf.
Liqa al-Yassin, an MP from the Sadr bloc, told AFP that the Sadrists would boycott parliamentary proceedings "until the government agrees to our demands."
"We are also starting a signature campaign to express no confidence in (Prime Minister) Nuri al-Maliki's government," he said.
Fighting raged from early morning in areas of Basra controlled by the Mahdi Army as troops and police launched a major crackdown on armed groups in the oil hub, considered the nerve centre of Iraq's national economy.
At least seven people were killed and 48 wounded, among them dozens of members of the Iraqi security forces, according to police and medics.
An AFP correspondent said fighting in Basra died away late afternoon and the streets were empty even of security force vehicles.
Clashes raged sporadically in Kut as militants fought Iraqi and US forces but there were no immediate reports of casualties. At least two people died in the Hilla clashes, security officials said.
In August, Sadr ordered a ceasefire following bloody fighting in the shrine city of Karbala blamed on his fighters, which were involved in two rebellions against US forces in 2004.
While Iraqi and US officials say most members of the militia have heeded the order, a number of what the US military terms "rogue elements" continue to attack American forces with mortars, rockets and roadside bombs.
Despite the ceasefire, Mahdi Army members are being subject to raids by the "occupiers" and Iraqi forces which are "destroying Iraqi houses," Sadr's statement said.
"Iraqis in general and Mahdi members in particular are paying the price."

British military officials said Prime Minister Nuri al-Maliki was in Basra to personally oversee the major security force sweep in Iraq's second largest city, but that British troops were not taking part.
An AFP correspondent said fighting involving mortars, machine guns and assault weapons erupted soon after the security forces entered the Al-Tamiyah neighbourhood, a bastion of Sadr's Mahdi Army militia, at around 5:00 am (0200 GMT). The fighting quickly spread to five other Mahdi Army neighbourhoods.
Television pictures showed Iraqi troops running through the streets firing weapons and taking cover as ambulances raced past. Thick palls of smoke were seen rising above the city skyline. In the wake of the fighting police also imposed curfews in five central-southern Shiite cities -- Kut, Samawa, Nasiriyah, Hilla and Diwaniyah -- as well as in Sadr City

******************************
Looks as though your not as up to date as you think.

Knowledge is power my friend, ignorance is your specialty.

Peace

 

[moreluck]

Re: Stupidvisors working...

I'm not getting into the fray or providing any data, but I agree with Tie on this topic. No attacks since 9-11, Bush is in charge, so he gets the credit in my book.

 

[tieguy]

Re: Stupidvisors working...

Tieguy,

you continue to astonish the readers with your nonsense. Winning? Settling down? Do you read the headlines coming out of IRAQ??

which readers do you claim to speak for. there are quite a few here that disagree with your points. Chalk up two more points for me for the nonsense comment above and the ignorance comment at the end of the post. Since you claim to seek knowledge let me share some with you.

 

[tieguy]

Re: Stupidvisors working...

heres another source . We obviously can't have a conversation with the president but we can use this source to at least say why he is making progress. Granted the source will be biased but at the same time if you're going to put the man down then you should at least read his thoughts on why he thinks he is making progress:

http://www.whitehouse.gov/infocus/achievement/chap1-nrn.html

I hope you find this helpfull in your search for knowledge.

 

[tieguy]

Re: Stupidvisors working...

How about a very objective source such as the brookings institute explaining our success in squashing the terrorist threat:

"A Surprising Calm


Although incomplete, these impressive advances may explain perhaps the biggest surprise since the September 11 attack: the lack of another mass casualty attack involving Americans. In 2002, al Qaeda or its allies killed 200 people, 19 of whom were American. But this low American body count was a close-run thing. Richard Reid, the so-called "shoebomber," was thwarted from killing hundreds only by an alert stewardess and his own incompetence. Islamic radicals with links to al Qaeda killed more than 180 people by blowing up a club in Bali. Radicals have killed Americans in Yemen, Lebanon, Pakistan, and Kuwait.


Nevertheless, the predictions of many first-rate terrorism experts that another major attack on U.S. soil was imminent have proven false. This may have been the result of the disruptions to al Qaeda's command structure in Afghanistan and elsewhere, the organization's temporary suspension of operations until police and intelligence pressure let up, or just sheer luck. Trumpeting this success would be foolish, as tomorrow may witness massive bloodshed. But even a year and a half of only limited violence—and violence confined to targets overseas—should clearly be counted as an achievement."

Heres the link:

http://www.brookings.edu/papers/2003/0523middleeast_byman.aspx

Should help your quest for knowledge.

 

[tieguy]

Re: Stupidvisors working...

So I challenge you to shake off whatever scuttle but you heard in the green peace bathrooms and actually seek this knowledge you claim to thirst for.

Once you do there is no other answer then the following:

a) no attacks on american soil since 9/11 . Bushs plan has been very effective in keeping the terrorists on the defensive.

b) Bushs plan in Iraq is working.

The legitimate question here which I will agree with you on is the cost of money , resources and human lives worth it. I'm not sure Iraq was worth it. Only time will tell.

But at this point Iraq is headed to a successfull conclusion in our favor and you have to credit the president with that success regardless of whether you like him or not.

 

[cantwin69]

Re: Stupidvisors working...

So I challenge you to shake off whatever scuttle but you heard in the green peace bathrooms and actually seek this knowledge you claim to thirst for.

Once you do there is no other answer then the following:

a) no attacks on american soil since 9/11 . Bushs plan has been very effective in keeping the terrorists on the defensive.

b) Bushs plan in Iraq is working.

The legitimate question here which I will agree with you on is the cost of money , resources and human lives worth it. I'm not sure Iraq was worth it. Only time will tell.

But at this point Iraq is headed to a successfull conclusion in our favor and you have to credit the president with that success regardless of whether you like him or not.

Tie - Examine your thoughts and decide if you have been brainwashed - With all due respect Tie, WAKE UP!

Fourteen Characteristics of Fascism

Laurence Britt, a political scientist, wrote an article about fascism which appeared in Free Inquiry magazine -- a journal of humanist thought. Mr. Britt studied the fascist regimes of Hitler (Germany), Mussolini (Italy), Franco (Spain), Suharto (Indonesia), and Pinochet (Chile). He found the regimes all had 14 things in common, and he calls these the identifying characteristics of fascism.

The 14 characteristics are:

1. Powerful and Continuing Nationalism -- Fascist regimes tend to make constant use of patriotic mottos, slogans, symbols, songs, and other paraphernalia.
Flags are seen everywhere, as are flag symbols on clothing and in public displays.

2. Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights -- Because of fear of enemies and the need for security, the people in fascist regimes are persuaded that
human rights can be ignored in certain cases because of "need". The people tend to 'look the other way' or even approve of torture, summary executions,
assassinations, long incarcerations of prisoners, etc.

3. Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause -- The people are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over the need to eliminate a perceived
common threat or foe: racial, ethnic or religious minorities; liberals; communists; socialists, terrorists, etc.

4. Supremacy of the Military -- Even when there are widespread domestic problems, the military is given a disproportionate amount of government funding,
and the domestic agenda is neglected. Soldiers and military service are glamorized.

5. Rampant Sexism -- The governments of fascist nations tend to be almost exclusively male-dominated. Under fascist regimes, traditional gender roles are
made more rigid. Opposition to abortion is high, as is homophobia and anti-gay legislation and national policy.

6. Controlled Mass Media -- Sometimes the media is directly controlled by the government, but in other cases, the media is indirectly controlled by
government regulation, or through sympathetic media spokespeople and executives. Censorship, especially in wartime, is very common.

7. Obsession with National Security -- Fear is used as a motivational tool by the government over the masses.

8. Religion and Government are Intertwined -- Governments in fascist nations tend to use the most common religion in the nation as a tool to manipulate public
opinion. Religious rhetoric and terminology is common from government leaders, even when the major tenets of the religion are diametrically opposed to the
government's policies or actions.

9. Corporate Power is Protected -- The industrial and business aristocracy of a fascist nation often are the ones who put the government leaders into power,
creating a mutually beneficial business/government relationship and power elite.

10. Labor Power is Suppressed -- Because the organizing power of labor is the only real threat to a fascist government, labor unions are either eliminated
entirely or are severely suppressed.

11. Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts -- Fascist nations tend to promote and tolerate open hostility to higher education, and academia. It is not uncommon
for professors and other academics to be censored or even arrested. Free expression in the arts is openly attacked, and governments often refuse to fund the
arts.

12. Obsession with Crime and Punishment -- Under fascist regimes, the police are given almost limitless power to enforce laws. The people are often willing
to overlook police abuses, and even forego civil liberties, in the name of patriotism. There is often a national police force with virtually unlimited power in
fascist nations.

13. Rampant Cronyism and Corruption -- Fascist regimes almost always are governed by groups of friends and associates who appoint each other to
government positions, and who use governmental power and authority to protect their friends from accountability. It is not uncommon in fascist regimes for
national resources and even treasures to be appropriated or even outright stolen by government leaders.

14. Fraudulent Elections -- Sometimes elections in fascist nations are a complete sham. Other times elections are manipulated by smear campaigns against (or
even the assassination of) opposition candidates, the use of legislation to control voting numbers or political district boundaries, and the manipulation of the
media. Fascist nations also typically use their judiciaries to manipulate or control elections.

 

[toonertoo]

Re: Stupidvisors working...

Strange that the moderator team seems to condone the name-calling from some, but not others....

Sorry over9five, I get called these things daily, and they dont upset me as much as some things I am called. Its not profanity, I think they can take it Ok. I could be wrong.

 

[tieguy]

Re: Stupidvisors working...

Tie - Examine your thoughts and decide if you have been brainwashed - With all due respect Tie, WAKE UP!

Fourteen Characteristics of Fascism

Your response just told me that ice cream is very tasty when I have been speaking about how much I enjoy steak. Did you read what I posted? Did you have a response in your words that counter the main points I made in my last post?

 

[tieguy]

Re: Stupidvisors working...

Since you have now taken this thread in this direction a few more to ponder. You can easily make the same associations here as you did with facism:


THE CHARACTERISTICS OF COMMUNISM HAVE LANDED IN AMERICA

Understanding the Characteristics of Communism and the International Bankers Looking to Enslave America.
All you need to do to understand the characteristics of communism is to take a look at the Communist Manifesto.
The Communist Manifesto lists out plainly what communism is all about.
The real horror, however, is when you begin to understand that communism has been enacted in America and Americans are too “asleep at the wheel” to have recognized it.
Could this be? Are we off our rocker? Is communism alive and well in the “Land of the Free”?
Let’s take a look…
CHARACTERISTICS OF COMMUNISM: THE STATE OWNS YOUR LAND

The first point of the Communist Manifesto says: “Abolition of all property and land ownership and the application of all rents for public purposes”.
Americans do not “own” their homes. Even if they pay the mortgage off, if they fail to pay the property tax, the Sheriff marches in and seizes the land. The citizen merely holds title to the land while paying rent to the State. The State is the true “owner” of the land.
Abolition of property ownership (one of the basic reasons for the Constitution was to protect the right to own property) has occurred in America and the people have no idea they’re living out one of the characteristics of communism.
Investigate “Land Patents” for more on this.

CHARACTERISTICS OF COMMUNISM: HEAVY TAX

The second point of the Communist Manifesto says: “A heavy progressive or graduated income tax”.
Any American filling out a 1040 every April is participating in a communist-based and illegal tax scam. This has been documented in so many places, it’s ridiculous.
The third point of the Communist Manifesto says: “Abolition of all rights of inheritance”.
The proliferation of probate courts and estate taxes is robbing families blind of their rightful inheritances right now in the good ‘ole United States of America.
CHARACTERISTICS OF COMMUNISM: IMPRISONMENT AND SEIZURES

The fourth point of the Communist Manifesto says: “Confiscation of the property of all emigrants and rebels”.
Go ahead and investigate subjects such as:

• Military Commissions Act of 2006 and the imprisonment of supposed “terrorists”
• Government Seizures
• Government Tax Liens
• Imprisonment of “Tax Protestors” (protesting that illegal tax scheme from Point 2)
• IRS confiscation of property without due process

Yup, Point 4 lives on in America.
CHARACTERISTICS OF COMMUNISM: FRAUDULENT CENTRAL BANK

The fifth point of the Communist Manifesto says: “Centralization of credit by the creation of a national bank”.
The Federal Reserve is the United States central bank. The Federal Reserve is a fraud, brought upon the American people through trickery and thievery back in 1913. Americans have had their gold and silver stolen from them by international bankers. Americans discharge, rather than pay (big difference!), their debts with debt instruments called Federal Reserve Notes.
CHARACTERISTICS OF COMMUNISM: COMMUNICATIONS & TRANSPORT CONTROL

The sixth point of the Communist Manifesto says: “Centralization of the means of Communication & Transport in the hands of the state”.
The American government controls our transportation and media through things such as the Department of Transportation (DOT), Federal Communications Commission (FCC), The Interstate Commerce Commission established in 1938, The Federal Aviation Administration, Federal Communications Commission, etc.
You’re forced to take on a driver’s license, and soon a National ID card:

CHARACTERISTICS OF COMMUNISM: FACTORIES & WASTELANDS

The seventh point of the Communist Manifesto says: “Government control of factories and the instruments of production owned by the state; the bringing into cultivation of wastelands and the use of the soil in accordance with a common plan”.
Allow us to bring your attention to entities such as the Bureau of Land Management, Department of Agriculture, Department of Commerce and Labor, Department of Interior, the Environmental Protection Agency, Bureau of Mines, National Park Service, etc.
CHARACTERISTICS OF COMMUNISM: CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS WAIVED

The eighth point of the Communist Manifesto says: “Equal Obligation of all to Labor. Establishment of Industrial armies, especially for Agriculture”.
Take a look at the Social Security Administration, the Department of Labor, the 19th Amendment of the U.S. Constitution, the Civil Rights Act of 1964, assorted Socialist Unions, Affirmative Action, the Federal Public Works Program, and Executive Order 11000.
Your Social Security Number puts you into a fictional system of admiralty law and commerce where you’ve waived all your constitutional rights. All you have left are privileges the government decides to grant you.
See Purpose of Law in Democracy for an introduction to this concept .
CHARACTERISTICS OF COMMUNISM: FEMA

The ninth point of the Communist Manifesto says: “A combination of agriculture with manufacturing industries; gradual abolition of the distinction between town and country by a more equitable distribution of population over the country”.
Take a good look at items such as the Planning Reorganization act of 1949 and the Federal Emergency Management Association (FEMA).
CHARACTERISTICS OF COMMUNISM: STATE CONTROLLED EDUCATION

The tenth point of the Communist Manifesto says: “Free education for all children in public schools; conform education with industrial productions”.
You are taxed to pay for “free” schools that teach our workers to be slave workers in the coming police state as part of the Freemason education conspiracy.
See Dumbing Down America and Home Schooling vs Public Schools.
CHARACTERISTICS OF COMMUNISM: FREE YOURSELF

Shocked? How did this all happen? In a word: BANKERS
The world’s international bankers, mainly through the Federal Reserve we mentioned earlier control it all through their fraudulent money creation scheme. They want a New World Order with a One World Government. They fund this idea through your taxes and debt payments.

 

[tieguy]

Re: Stupidvisors working...

How about socialism. Maybe there is something there that might scare us?


Fighting Plunder with Plunder in Poland
Jacob G. Hornberger
February 1990
After more than forty years of suffering under socialism, the Polish people finally have an opportunity to pursue economic freedom. Yet, every indication is that the new Polish government intends to pursue the same old hackneyed ideas of plunder which caused so much misery and despair. Rather than immediately eliminate the immoral impediments to economic progress which have plagued Poland for so long, the Polish government is attempting to reinforce its system by having the American government through its tax system, plunder the American people and send the loot to the Polish authorities.
It is first important to summarize the principles of freedom which many of us consider so vital. Life, liberty, property, and conscience are fundamental, God-given rights rather than privileges bestowed on people by governmental officials. As long as there is no force or fraud against others, individuals have the absolute right to live their lives the way they choose, to engage in any occupation or business, to enter into any voluntary exchange using any mutually beneficial medium of exchange, to accumulate unlimited amounts of wealth, and to dispose of that wealth in any manner they choose. The only legitimate function of government is to protect the exercise of these inherent rights. It is also important to describe some of the characteristics of socialism. Under socialism, the government is the only employer in society. Individuals are not permitted to go into business for themselves or to work for private employers. If a person wants to eat he has no choice but to accept a job with the State. It is not difficult to imagine what happens to the person who displeases his boss in a system where there is only one employer. Under socialism, people either learn to conform or starve.
The socialist State also owns the results of production, that is, the income and savings of the citizenry. Through different levels of taxation, the government permits some people to keep more of their earnings and others to keep less. Almost no one questions the legitimacy of government making this determination. The idea that a person's earnings are his by right and therefore not subject to being plundered and redistributed by the State, is an alien notion to people living under socialism.
Another characteristic of socialism is that parents are required to send their children to government-approved schools for a "free" education. Of course, many of us know that such a system is not free in any sense of the word. On threat of fine and imprisonment parents are denied the basic human right to have their children educated in the manner they choose. The entire system is financed by plundering the property of everyone to pay for the schooling of everyone's children. The notion that parents should be financially responsible for the education of their own children is an anathema to people living under socialism. The idea that a free market would produce an infinitely better educational system is beyond the thinking of most of the citizenry. Finally, most people under socialism are comforted in knowing that their children are learning government-approved doctrines rather than ideas which might question the moral or economic legitimacy of certain governmental activities.
A third characteristic of socialism is the absolute control which the government maintains over the monetary system of the nation. Of course, political control over money invariably results in the insidious form of government plunder known as inflation, whereby the government debases the currency by simply printing more of it As Americans know only too well, currency debasement results in higher prices at the stores, accusations of price-gouging, the imposition of price controls, shortages of goods and long lines of people who seek to purchase such goods. That the concept of money should be left to the free market is considered ridiculous by most people who live under a socialist system.
What is so evil about socialism? First politicians are permitted to interfere with the fundamental God-given right of how a person chooses to live his life and dispose of his property. Second, the individual under socialism does not exist for his own sake, that is, for his own growth and development Instead he is a mere "cog in the wheel" serving the community in the manner the community chooses. Third, at the heart of the socialist system are the sins of envy and covetousness. With the exception of the political rulers, a person under socialism is not permitted to commit the "heinous crime" of having more than another person. Finally, with its system of plunder and redistribution of wealth, socialism results in economic impoverishment for the vast majority of the populace.
What then is the solution for Poland? Freedom is the solution! The Polish government should 'push the button" and immediately remove all rules and regulations which interfere with peaceful activity. This would entail the right of each individual to open any business without government permission, to charge any price without threat of controls, to enter into any voluntary exchange using any mutually agreeable medium of exchange, to accumulate any amount of wealth without threat of confiscation, and to dispose of his wealth in any manner he chooses — in short, to do anything that's peaceful.
The American government for its part should "push the button" by immediately removing all restrictions to the fundamental right of the American people to keep what they earn as well as removing all regulations which prevent or impede the investment expenditure, and donation of money in Poland. Not only would the removal of such restrictions be consistent with the basic moral values of freedom, it also would ensure that resources were being used for the benefit of the Polish people rather than the Polish politicians.
Two historical examples come to mind. Many Americans do not know that the colonists at Plymouth Plantation initially established a socialist system. The crops, for example, were not privately owned by the colonists but instead were owned by "the community." Everyone was required to work for the common good, and the community leaders decided how the fruits would be distributed. The result? Famine and successive years of starvation! After a few years of experience under socialism, Governor Bradford decreed the end of this type of system and held that each family would thereafter own what it produced. The result? Tremendous plenty and successive years of thanksgiving!
Another example is that of post-World War 11 Germany. The German people were suffering under a myriad of rules and regulations which had been imposed by order of the Allied authorities. The German Minister of Economics, Ludwig Erhard, wanted to immediately abolish all of these impediments to economic activity. The American authorities, however, advised him that such action would result in economic chaos. To Erhard's credit he rejected the thinking of the Americans and "pushed the button" one Sunday morning. The result? An immediate outburst of economic activity and the beginning of what became known as the German economic miracle.
American government aid to Poland is morally wrong. It is based on the same socialist principles of plunder and redistribution of wealth on which the Polish economic system has been based. Equally important it also impedes the implementation of solutions based upon freedom. Let's not fight plunder with plunder. Let's fight for freedom with freedom!

 

[tieguy]

Re: Stupidvisors working...

Do you have enough to fear yet or do I need to produce some more?

 

[over9five]

Re: Stupidvisors working...

Sorry over9five, I get called these things daily, and they dont upset me as much as some things I am called. Its not profanity, I think they can take it Ok. I could be wrong.

From the TOS:
Discussion can be animated, which is fine, but we do not welcome personal attacks, on- or off-site. It is inappropriate to say anything on a discussion forum about any individual or entity that you would not be prepared to say to them face-to-face.

It is fine to disagree with a different viewpoint, but please limit this to challenging the idea and not make your comments a personal challenge or make derogatory personal comments about individuals, their ideas or their situation. The latter is considered to be a flame and will not be tolerated.

Not too long ago, Tie and I were the "schoolyard bullies". Just looking for a level playing field, that's all.

 

[toonertoo]

Re: Stupidvisors working...

My bad, guess I dont know the TOS well.

 

[scratch]

Re: Stupidvisors working...

This thread went from "stupidvisors" doing hourly work to a political argument. Since a great majority of the posts have nothing to do with the original Labor Forum thread, I am going to move it over to the Current Events Forum where it belongs.

Like several of you have pointed out, we need to keep these debates a little more civil. Calling other members stupidvisors, idiots, and morons does nothing to support any argument.

 

[av8torntn]

Re: Stupidvisors working...

Tieguy,

you continue to astonish the readers with your nonsense. Winning? Settling down? Do you read the headlines coming out of IRAQ??

let me assist you,

Sadr militia battle troops in four Iraqi cities
by Ammar Karim 34 minutes ago




******************************
Looks as though your not as up to date as you think.

Knowledge is power my friend, ignorance is your specialty.

Peace

I see your "news story" and raise you one quote.


"I have failed to liberate Iraq, and transform its society into an Islamic society."
-- Moqtada al-Sadr, Asharq Al Awsat newspaper, March 8, 2008
I am guessing you know this guy is in charge of your Mehdi militia.




"British military officials said Prime Minister Nuri al-Maliki was in Basra to personally oversee the major security force sweep in Iraq's second largest city, but that British troops were not taking part.
An AFP correspondent said fighting involving mortars, machine guns and assault weapons erupted soon after the security forces entered the Al-Tamiyah neighbourhood, a bastion of Sadr's Mahdi Army militia, at around 5:00 am (0200 GMT). The fighting quickly spread to five other Mahdi Army neighbourhoods.
Television pictures showed Iraqi troops running through the streets firing weapons and taking cover as ambulances raced past. Thick palls of smoke were seen rising above the city skyline. In the wake of the fighting police also imposed curfews in five central-southern Shiite cities -- Kut, Samawa, Nasiriyah, Hilla and Diwaniyah -- as well as in Sadr City"



This is the key point in your "news" that proves we are winning. If and that is a big if you had been watching the "news" you would have figured out that when we turn an area over to the IA in the past there was always a rise in violence to test the new security forces. (Najaf and Karbala are just two of the more recent examples) American forces have always had to lead the way in planning the and executing the response. I would count this as possibly a very large victory.

 

[trplnkl]

Re: Stupidvisors working...

Do you honestly believe the terrorists are being prevented from attacking us because Bush is in office? If they wanted to attack, they would have done it - regardless of who is president. What are the percentages of packages inspected / or scanned by UPS for biological weapons? How many ship containers are inspected going through our ports? I believe the percentage is right around 10. What about all that great airport security? How much of the stuff in the cargo hold gets a once over by bomb sniffing dogs? How hard would it be for a wave of them to sneak across one of our borders? Bush would / has stopped all that though, right?

Not because Bush is in office, but because Homeland Security is doing a much better job than most Libs give them credit for. The HLS is doing even more than we know or hear about. Even though the Democrats have worked very hard at neutering HLS and handcuffing the military many plots to commit terrorists activity here have been squashed. I'm betting many more than we are told of.
I'm not totally happy with the Bush administration, I'm not naive enough to buy into everything they say. But I'm sure not stupid enough to think for one minute that Obama or Billery will ever do anything to help keep America safe. Our border security stinks, it has for years on end. Guess what, Democrats did absolutely nothing in the past to help that. Democrats have blocked almost every attempt to strengthen the borders since 9/11, not that Republicans have done enough either.

What a joke! People like you buy into this nonsense. Come on man, you really think the terrorists want to bring down this country using acts of terror? No, they don't. It would be next to impossible to do it that way. The way to do it is via economic impacts. As you may have heard lately, this country is not doing too well in that department. You, Bush, and all the other "patriotic" types are falling right into the terror trap.

The nonsense comes in when people think the terrorist are trying to bring our country down, they are not. What they ARE trying to do is kill as many infidels as possible, that IS their manifest. WE are the infidels in their minds.

It would serve no one better than the terrorist extremist to keep our soldiers and wallets in Iraq. This whole point of fighting them on another's soil rather than our own is such nonsense. What in the world do you think we are doing right now? This war has impacted this country, our soil, way more than has even been seen . People are losing their homes, inflation and unemployment are still in their infancy stages, and the price of our so called safety has been $500 billion. Don't be fooled into thinking we are safe. The war has been fought on our soil, through our wallets. Our country is on the same path as USSR was. If not corrected soon, we lose the war no matter where our soldiers are.
Just a thought.
Do you really believe people losing their homes recently have a thing to do with Iraq? Sorry, not true. The foreclosures we have been witnessing are do to financial institutes over estimating what the American worker can endure with the wages they earn. The largest group of foreclosures are on the flexible interest rate scam the banks have sold to so many Americans. They sell this idea by telling them that the market is good, rates will stay low and all is well. People buy homes they can't really afford based on low rates and when they go up, even for a short period, they can't make the payments. Inflation is a fact of a free market. I get a raise, my employer raise his rates, the guy that owns the store down the block raises his prices, I need another raise. Around and around it goes.
BTW, I never said we were safe, I have said we are SAFER than on 9/12/2001.

 

[BrownShark]

Re: Stupidvisors working...

How about a very objective source such as the brookings institute explaining our success in squashing the terrorist threat:

"A Surprising Calm


Although incomplete, these impressive advances may explain perhaps the biggest surprise since the September 11 attack: the lack of another mass casualty attack involving Americans. In 2002, al Qaeda or its allies killed 200 people, 19 of whom were American. But this low American body count was a close-run thing. Richard Reid, the so-called "shoebomber," was thwarted from killing hundreds only by an alert stewardess and his own incompetence. Islamic radicals with links to al Qaeda killed more than 180 people by blowing up a club in Bali. Radicals have killed Americans in Yemen, Lebanon, Pakistan, and Kuwait.


Nevertheless, the predictions of many first-rate terrorism experts that another major attack on U.S. soil was imminent have proven false. This may have been the result of the disruptions to al Qaeda's command structure in Afghanistan and elsewhere, the organization's temporary suspension of operations until police and intelligence pressure let up, or just sheer luck. Trumpeting this success would be foolish, as tomorrow may witness massive bloodshed. But even a year and a half of only limited violence—and violence confined to targets overseas—should clearly be counted as an achievement."

Heres the link:

http://www.brookings.edu/papers/2003/0523middleeast_byman.aspx

Should help your quest for knowledge.

TIEGUY,

I am not sure exactly what you intended to prove using the Brookings report on terrorism? It hardly gives the BUSH administration a rounding victory on the war on terror. The report is large, so I will have to address you on key points in separate posts in light of character limitations.

The report is large, and after careful examination, let me point out a few things you obviously missed when you sited the report. For starters, comprehending what is written is whats important here and this report was written in 2003, thats 5 years ago at a time where the war was merely rhetoric.

What I, Cantwin and others have been trying to communicate to you is what the Brookings report S P E L L S out in great detail. The fact that IRAQ had nothing to do with 911 or any IRAQI official involved with the planning or financing tells you that we are wasting our time in IRAQ fighting the war on terror.

This is what the Brookings report sez. Read this from the report:

Progress Against Al Qaeda Leaders


So where does the United States stand with regard to the body count? The total number of those arrested numbers over 3,000, according to DCI Tenet. In March, the United States and its allies scored perhaps their biggest success yet: the capture in Rawalpindi of Khalid Shaikh Mohammed, the mastermind of 9/11 and a key al Qaeda planner and facilitator, the latest in an impressive series of arrests, detentions, and disruptions.


There is no question that this constitutes considerable progress and should be lauded as such. However, it should not obscure remaining tasks. Even within the scope of taking out more names from the al Qaeda organizational chart, much of the senior leadership apparently remains alive, including of course bin Laden himself and his deputy Ayman al-Zawahiri. Not only can these leaders continue to organize and plan, but the failure to kill or capture them bolsters their cause. As terrorism expert Bruce Hoffman explains, "...for bin Laden—like guerrillas and terrorists everywhere—not losing is winning." As long as these leaders remain alive in the face of a massive worldwide manhunt, they gain stature for their movement through nothing more than successful defiance.


Focusing on a body count of the pre-September 11 al Qaeda leadership also misses a frightening characteristic of al Qaeda: its ability to regenerate. An anonymous Intelligence officer, in the book Through Our Enemies Eyes, notes that in the years before September 11, police and security forces disrupted al Qaeda cells worldwide and arrested many members. These efforts probably saved hundreds if not thousands of lives—but they did not stop al Qaeda.


In addition, al Qaeda is more than a single movement: it is also an organization that seeks to inspire and coordinate other groups and individuals. Even if al Qaeda is taking losses beyond its ability to recuperate, there is still a much broader Islamist movement that is hostile to the United States, seeks to overthrow U.S. allies, and is committed to violence. A proper listing of the al Qaeda roster should also include at the very least senior officials of the Egyptian Islamic Jihad, the Jamaat-e-Islami in southeast Asia, the Salafist Group for Preaching and Combat in Algeria, and Al Itihaad al Islamiya in Somalia. A more comprehensive list would add Kashmiri groups, the Islamic Movement of Uzbekistan, the Armed Islamic Group, al-Gamaa al-Islamiya, and other organizations with strong institutional and personal ties to al Qaeda.


The conceptual key is not to see al Qaeda as a terrorist group, but rather as a global insurgency. Unlike, say, the 17 November organization in Greece, al Qaeda cannot be crushed with a few key arrests. Rather, it requires a painstaking and lengthy struggle to take out not only the current leadership, but also the broader organizational structure.

I am not sure how you believe this spells victory or success on the broader war on terror, but it clearly demonstrates that we are not going to make a dent on Al Qaeda fighting in IRAQ.

Peace.