Time for Changes

[Karma...]

The strength of the unions is such that they adversely control our country. UPS and Yellow are obvious examples. It's time that certain measures are taken. The entire country should be RTW and curb their power. If one wants to join do so....If one doesn't want to join do so. Much of what the older unions fought for has been codified into law while economic issues dealt with basic supply and demand. I approve of unions as long as one has the choice. Otherwise it's UnAmerican and is communistic. Teamsters at UPS and Yellow have the potential power to cripple our country. Thats a monopoly. Either RTW or make UPS into smaller companies. Your thoughts. Americas future is at stake. There are distinct differences between guilds and unions.

 

[BadIdeaGuy]

Teamsters at UPS and Yellow have the potential power to cripple our country.

Damn right.

Keep that in mind when y'all start renegotiating tomorrow.

 

[RangerMan06]

I'm in a RTW state and over 75 percent of our employees(100 percent of FTs) gladly pay union dues . No way would the majority of employees ever want to work for UPS without a union.

Furthermore I believe laws will be passed in the near future to make it easier to unionize in companies like Amazon and Starbucks.

There should be more high paying jobs with health insurance in America. Not Less.

 

[upschuck]

The strength of the unions is such that they adversely control our country. UPS and Yellow are obvious examples. It's time that certain measures are taken. The entire country should be RTW and curb their power. If one wants to join do so....If one doesn't want to join do so. Much of what the older unions fought for has been codified into law while economic issues dealt with basic supply and demand. I approve of unions as long as one has the choice. Otherwise it's UnAmerican and is communistic. Teamsters at UPS and Yellow have the potential power to cripple our country. Thats a monopoly. Either RTW or make UPS into smaller companies. Your thoughts. Americas future is at stake. There are distinct differences between guilds and unions.

Only way I would support is if they would get zero of the negotiated benefits, and are not represented by the union, in any way.

 

[brownIEman]

Either RTW or make UPS into smaller companies. Your thoughts. Americas future is at stake. There are distinct differences between guilds and unions.

Not to worry, the NMA over the past 30 odd years has and continues to work to make UPS a smaller company. The explosion in the small pack market due to e-commerce thwarted those efforts, but that may be reaching equilibrium and actual reductions in volume may be seen soon.

The old days are gone. Unions now stand for protecting workers, sure, but most of the workplace safety issues have now been codified into law and are unforced by OSHA. They also stand for a better share of revenue for workers (they don't calculate it that way but that's essentially what it is). Certainly valid.

What they no longer stand for, is quality of workmanship. There used to be an unwritten agreement between labor unions and management that developed over decades from the late 1800's to ~1970's ish that companies would provide decent pay, and unions would provide quality work (remember the 'look for the union label' jingle from marketing campaigns).
Basically, a fair days work for a fair days pay.
Now, it's whatever work I feel like giving for a fair days pay. Just look at all the effort the union has put into getting agreements in the NMA restricting management's ability to hold employees accountable to doing the job and doing it right. Telematics proved the driver went 4 miles out of the way off route to get lunch at Cracker Barrel while passing 12 perfectly comfortable places to eat and use a restroom. Certainly cause for discipline right? Wrong! None at all. Also, pay the 9.5 pay, poor guy could only manage 7 SPORH those days so, pay up.
Camera proved the driver was steeling cell phones? Automatic termination, clearly a cardinal. Nope! Zero discipline. Also, I'll probably be calling off tomorrow. I'll use my brand new Samsung!

Imo, one of the biggest reasons for the massive drop in the percentage of the workforce represented by unions in the US is the fact that unions completely abandoned the practical idea of a fair days work and put so much energy into protecting workers who refused to give one. That had 2 impacts. 1, it destroyed many companies who could not get quality work nor adjust quickly to market changes. 2, workers who took pride in their own work were soured on unions when they saw them putting the majority of their energy into defending thieves and slugs.

 

[brownIEman]

Only way I would support is if they would get zero of the negotiated benefits, and are not represented by the union, in any way.

That is the downside to right to work, the problem of the free rider has never adequately been addressed. At the very least, even if having the same total compensation package, non members should not be able to rely on representation and should be treated as at will employees.

 

[Thebrownblob]

The strength of the unions is such that they adversely control our country. UPS and Yellow are obvious examples. It's time that certain measures are taken. The entire country should be RTW and curb their power. If one wants to join do so....If one doesn't want to join do so. Much of what the older unions fought for has been codified into law while economic issues dealt with basic supply and demand. I approve of unions as long as one has the choice. Otherwise it's UnAmerican and is communistic. Teamsters at UPS and Yellow have the potential power to cripple our country. Thats a monopoly. Either RTW or make UPS into smaller companies. Your thoughts. Americas future is at stake. There are distinct differences between guilds and unions.

 

[Commercial Inside Release]

the downside to right to work

RTW is intended to mess with unions and undermine them. It wasn't an unintended consequence or accident. Another great pillar of RTW is an employer can fire you at any time. (If they can document three infractions in a RTW state, they don't have to pay you unemployment if they fight it at the hearing.)

RTW is a "clever-speak" misnomer, like the unpatriotic "Patriot Act."

 

[Karma...]

Not to worry, the NMA over the past 30 odd years has and continues to work to make UPS a smaller company. The explosion in the small pack market due to e-commerce thwarted those efforts, but that may be reaching equilibrium and actual reductions in volume may be seen soon.

The old days are gone. Unions now stand for protecting workers, sure, but most of the workplace safety issues have now been codified into law and are unforced by OSHA. They also stand for a better share of revenue for workers (they don't calculate it that way but that's essentially what it is). Certainly valid.

What they no longer stand for, is quality of workmanship. There used to be an unwritten agreement between labor unions and management that developed over decades from the late 1800's to ~1970's ish that companies would provide decent pay, and unions would provide quality work (remember the 'look for the union label' jingle from marketing campaigns).
Basically, a fair days work for a fair days pay.
Now, it's whatever work I feel like giving for a fair days pay. Just look at all the effort the union has put into getting agreements in the NMA restricting management's ability to hold employees accountable to doing the job and doing it right. Telematics proved the driver went 4 miles out of the way off route to get lunch at Cracker Barrel while passing 12 perfectly comfortable places to eat and use a restroom. Certainly cause for discipline right? Wrong! None at all. Also, pay the 9.5 pay, poor guy could only manage 7 SPORH those days so, pay up.
Camera proved the driver was steeling cell phones? Automatic termination, clearly a cardinal. Nope! Zero discipline. Also, I'll probably be calling off tomorrow. I'll use my brand new Samsung!

Imo, one of the biggest reasons for the massive drop in the percentage of the workforce represented by unions in the US is the fact that unions completely abandoned the practical idea of a fair days work and put so much energy into protecting workers who refused to give one. That had 2 impacts. 1, it destroyed many companies who could not get quality work nor adjust quickly to market changes. 2, workers who took pride in their own work were soured on unions when they saw them putting the majority of their energy into defending thieves and slugs.

exactly and precisely put

 

[RangerMan06]

RTW is intended to mess with unions and undermine them. It wasn't an unintended consequence or accident. Another great pillar of RTW is an employer can fire you at any time. (If they can document three infractions in a RTW state, they don't have to pay you unemployment if they fight it at the hearing.)

RTW is a "clever-speak" misnomer, like the unpatriotic "Patriot Act."

All the more reason most employees choose to be unionized in RTW states if given the opportunity.
Imagine getting fired for any reason the company chooses, even pregnancy without any legal protections.

 

[RangerMan06]

exactly and precisely put

Keep dreaming and start filling out applications lol

 

[IVE GOTTA PACKAGE 4U]

Not to worry, the NMA over the past 30 odd years has and continues to work to make UPS a smaller company. The explosion in the small pack market due to e-commerce thwarted those efforts, but that may be reaching equilibrium and actual reductions in volume may be seen soon.

The old days are gone. Unions now stand for protecting workers, sure, but most of the workplace safety issues have now been codified into law and are unforced by OSHA. They also stand for a better share of revenue for workers (they don't calculate it that way but that's essentially what it is). Certainly valid.

What they no longer stand for, is quality of workmanship. There used to be an unwritten agreement between labor unions and management that developed over decades from the late 1800's to ~1970's ish that companies would provide decent pay, and unions would provide quality work (remember the 'look for the union label' jingle from marketing campaigns).
Basically, a fair days work for a fair days pay.
Now, it's whatever work I feel like giving for a fair days pay. Just look at all the effort the union has put into getting agreements in the NMA restricting management's ability to hold employees accountable to doing the job and doing it right. Telematics proved the driver went 4 miles out of the way off route to get lunch at Cracker Barrel while passing 12 perfectly comfortable places to eat and use a restroom. Certainly cause for discipline right? Wrong! None at all. Also, pay the 9.5 pay, poor guy could only manage 7 SPORH those days so, pay up.
Camera proved the driver was steeling cell phones? Automatic termination, clearly a cardinal. Nope! Zero discipline. Also, I'll probably be calling off tomorrow. I'll use my brand new Samsung!

Imo, one of the biggest reasons for the massive drop in the percentage of the workforce represented by unions in the US is the fact that unions completely abandoned the practical idea of a fair days work and put so much energy into protecting workers who refused to give one. That had 2 impacts. 1, it destroyed many companies who could not get quality work nor adjust quickly to market changes. 2, workers who took pride in their own work were soured on unions when they saw them putting the majority of their energy into defending thieves and slugs.

Telematics is not always correct

I was 125 miles off my route....

 

[Brownwind]

Telematics is not always correct

I was 125 miles off my route....

Yep

and yes the cover driver will still use it and ti off packages to the nearest post. Good times with the follow up.

 

[GameCockFan]

Not to worry, the NMA over the past 30 odd years has and continues to work to make UPS a smaller company. The explosion in the small pack market due to e-commerce thwarted those efforts, but that may be reaching equilibrium and actual reductions in volume may be seen soon.

The old days are gone. Unions now stand for protecting workers, sure, but most of the workplace safety issues have now been codified into law and are unforced by OSHA. They also stand for a better share of revenue for workers (they don't calculate it that way but that's essentially what it is). Certainly valid.

What they no longer stand for, is quality of workmanship. There used to be an unwritten agreement between labor unions and management that developed over decades from the late 1800's to ~1970's ish that companies would provide decent pay, and unions would provide quality work (remember the 'look for the union label' jingle from marketing campaigns).
Basically, a fair days work for a fair days pay.
Now, it's whatever work I feel like giving for a fair days pay. Just look at all the effort the union has put into getting agreements in the NMA restricting management's ability to hold employees accountable to doing the job and doing it right. Telematics proved the driver went 4 miles out of the way off route to get lunch at Cracker Barrel while passing 12 perfectly comfortable places to eat and use a restroom. Certainly cause for discipline right? Wrong! None at all. Also, pay the 9.5 pay, poor guy could only manage 7 SPORH those days so, pay up.
Camera proved the driver was steeling cell phones? Automatic termination, clearly a cardinal. Nope! Zero discipline. Also, I'll probably be calling off tomorrow. I'll use my brand new Samsung!

Imo, one of the biggest reasons for the massive drop in the percentage of the workforce represented by unions in the US is the fact that unions completely abandoned the practical idea of a fair days work and put so much energy into protecting workers who refused to give one. That had 2 impacts. 1, it destroyed many companies who could not get quality work nor adjust quickly to market changes. 2, workers who took pride in their own work were soured on unions when they saw them putting the majority of their energy into defending thieves and slugs.

Yet revenue per employee is exponentially higher at UPS than at our non-union counterparts, That doesn't jive to well with your argument

 

[brownIEman]

Yet revenue per employee is exponentially higher at UPS than at our non-union counterparts, That doesn't jive to well with your argument

It certainly would not, if that statement were factually true. It is not
2022 numbers
Fedex, 93.51B revenue, 546K employees, Revenue/employee ~ 171K
UPS 100B revenue, 536K employees, Rev/emp ~ 187K (slightly more, but not any where approaching 'exponentially' more)
Amazon, 513B revenue, 1.5million employees, rev/emp ~ 333K.

Yeah, not really. Also, factor in that UPS continues to loose market share. As I have said in the past, UPS has managed to transform into a business model that is profitable, but not competitive in the US domestic market

 

[RangerMan06]

It certainly would not, if that statement were factually true. It is not
2022 numbers
Fedex, 93.51B revenue, 546K employees, Revenue/employee ~ 171K
UPS 100B revenue, 536K employees, Rev/emp ~ 187K (slightly more, but not any where approaching 'exponentially' more)
Amazon, 513B revenue, 1.5million employees, rev/emp ~ 333K.

Yeah, not really. Also, factor in that UPS continues to loose market share. As I have said in the past, UPS has managed to transform into a business model that is profitable, but not competitive in the US domestic market

Only reason we are losing Market Share is because of our CEOs Better not Bigger campaign. Has nothing to do with the union

 

[brownIEman]

Only reason we are losing Market Share is because of our CEOs Better not Bigger campaign. Has nothing to do with the union

Market share went from a high of close to 90% sometime in the '90s (before 97, it was back down to~80 by '97) to ~25 today. The drop started way before Carol came on the scene.

Better not Bigger is not some new strategy she came up with, it's just finally acknowledging a reality UPS has been living for the past 30 years.
In '97 UPS told the IBT that the company's cost structure was causing it to be completely unable to compete on price. That in order to stay competitive they needed to control the cost growth. The company consolidated/automated/ outsourced support functions and reduced Healthcare costs for non bargaining unit employees. They then told the IBT we all need to chip in and asked for cost control measures such as getting out of dying multi employer pension plans. Carey told UPS to go eff itself.

So, UPS tried to compete on service, not price. It tried a number of things. None stopped the slide in Market share.
Better, not Bigger is the company finally admitting the reality it's been in for 30 years. The admission is 100% on the company. The reality is at least 50% on the union.

 

[RangerMan06]

Market share went from a high of close to 90% sometime in the '90s (before 97, it was back down to~80 by '97) to ~25 today. The drop started way before Carol came in the seen. Better not Bigger is not some new strategy she came up with, it's just finally acknowledging a reality UPS has been living for the past 30 years.
In '97 UPS told the IBT that the company's cost structure was causing it to be completely unable to compete on price. That in order to stay competitive they needed to control the cost growth. The company consolidated/automated/ outsourced support functions and reduced Healthcare costs for non bargaining unit employees. They then told the IBT we all need to chip in and asked for cost control measures such as getting out of dying multi employer pension plans. Carey told UPS to go eff itself.

So, UPS tried to compete on service, not price. It tried a number of things. None stopped the slide in Market share.
Better, not Bigger is the company finally admitting the reality it's been in for 30 years. The admission is 100% on the company. The reality is at least 50% on the union.

And we still make record profits every quarter. Quit acting like we're going belly up anytime soon. We deliver more packages per day now than we ever did.

 

[brownIEman]

And we still make record profits every quarter. Quit acting like we're going belly up anytime soon. We deliver more packages per day now than we ever did.

I have never said UPS is going belly up anytime soon, quit being so dramatic.
I am clearly laying out the facts that UPS has been losing market share for the past 30 years. Even if UPS gets to zero percent market share of the US domestic small package market it will not go belly up, but it will be a much smaller company than it is now. But guess what? Likely it will still be profitable.
Had UPS won in 97, it would have been way more competitive and would likely still have close to ~50% market share, delivering something like 40 million pieces a day.

 

[RangerMan06]

I have never said UPS is going belly up anytime soon, quit being so dramatic.
I am clearly laying out the facts that UPS has been losing market share for the past 30 years. Even if UPS gets to zero percent market share of the US domestic small package market it will not go belly up, but it will be a much smaller company than it is now. But guess what? Likely it will still be profitable.
Had UPS won in 97, it would have been way more competitive and would likely still have close to ~50% market share, delivering something like 40 million pieces a day.

UPS is Bigger now and delivers more packages with less market share. If we had 50 percent market share we'd need 5 million plus employees.
If we increase market share that means we increase volume. If we increase volume we must increase our workforce and infrastructure. We'll never be able to increase volume without hiring more employees and the union isn't going anywhere.
UPS could have had 100 percent of the Amazon volume if they would have told them we're done if they start their own delivery business. We were more concerned about making our quarterly numbers than worrying about the long term.
The only reason we are losing market share is because of corporate stupidity.