UPS's "Final Offer" Vs What We Won By Striking In 1997 Memory Lane

Bagels

Family Leave Fridays!!!
You forgot to mention that Jimbo Felipe Hoffa was born with a silver spoon in his mouth. He's also an Ivy School graduate, not because of his good grades, but because his rich notorious father paid for it from the hefty salary he paid himself from Teamsters dues.

Lets not forget that prior to becoming a Teamster, Jimbo Felipe Hoffa was a corporate lawyer. Not a very good one, but indeed a corporate lawyer that defended corporate greed. Lets never forget that!

I'm not a Hoffa fan, and have voted against him in every election, but this is completely untrue.

-- Hoffa was raised in Detroit & currently resides in suburban Detroit.
-- Hoffa earned his B.A. at Michigan State & J.D. at Michigan. Both are PUBLIC universities within Michigan -- far from Ivy League. Yes, he got into both schools because of his grades - any Michigan high school graduate can get into Michigan State with above-average grades.
-- Hoffa was never a corporate attorney, and actually represented Teamsters in Detroit.
 

Dracula

Package Car is cake compared to this...
I wish I still had the papers I had in the 90's. Yes, Hoffa was a corporate attorney. And some of the cases he worked were against working people. I specifically remember in those papers, a transcript from a trial where the judge dressed down Hoffa for going after working people and siding with this corporation when Hoffa's education was paid for on the backs of working people. I'll see if I can dig it up....it is quite revealing, and shows Hoffa's true colors. Even though Carey was the best thing for the Teamsters in decades, and even though we have taken huge steps backwards since Hoffa became President, we simply have no choice but to back Hoffa right now. That is, as long as the contract proposal we receive is to our favor. Come election time, though, Hoffa deserves no backing.
 
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anonymous6

Guest
After a full review, my bad, sorry. The angst is there from a few ex: of what were "gains" that could perhaps be seen as losses. There's no one to blame but Hoffa. Also, weren't there changes in 9.5 language that were made without voting on? I don't think that was '97 language, perhaps 2002 between '07? Perhaps that was a Hall thing. Either way, another example of what should be a "win" turning into something different than envisioned.


that's why i am suggesting just a 3 or 4 year contract. the company has shown it's lack of integrity in following our current contract. we can right the wrongs in the new contract and keep to term low to let them know we mean business. 6 or 7 years is just too long.
 

3 done 3 to go

In control of own destiny
that's why i am suggesting just a 3 or 4 year contract. the company has shown it's lack of integrity in following our current contract. we can right the wrongs in the new contract and keep to term low to let them know we mean business. 6 or 7 years is just too long.

Just from other contracts. Why isn'T UPS punished by the union or labor board about all the jobs it promised on? 10k jobs not true. 22.3 jobs dissolved?
 

InsideUPS

Well-Known Member
Just from other contracts. Why isn'T UPS punished by the union or labor board about all the jobs it promised on? 10k jobs not true. 22.3 jobs dissolved?

GREAT question 10 2 go. The reason I was told is that there was a "clause" that stated those 22.3 job creations were "volume dependent". I don't even live near a farm and I smell BS from miles away...... This is one HUGE reason I no longer even trust what is written in our conract......this and BS about not subcontracting... like SUREPOST!!!!!
 

3 done 3 to go

In control of own destiny
GREAT question 10 2 go. The reason I was told is that there was a "clause" that stated those 22.3 job creations were "volume dependent". I don't even live near a farm and I smell BS from miles away...... This is one HUGE reason I no longer even trust what is written in our conract......this and BS about not subcontracting... like SUREPOST!!!!!

That is exactly my point! Can we really believe what is agreed upon. UPS hasn't got to follow thru on anything. No penalties.
 

Evil

Well-Known Member
Just from other contracts. Why isn'T UPS punished by the union or labor board about all the jobs it promised on? 10k jobs not true. 22.3 jobs dissolved?

I come from a hub that besides the drivers, we have a sunrise and twilight shift. Our BA came up with some bull**** that because we weren't a 24 hour hub the 22.3 jobs were filled in other hubs. Funny thing is the layoff workers weren't even given a chance of traveling with these so called shipped jobs to those new hubs. That's how everyone found out that our BA was full of **** and covering his own ass as he couldn't get those people of his ass.
 

2BOver

Member
The drivers that went out for the entire strike in 1997 lost more in wages in those two weeks than they made over the life of that contract. It's simple math. Figure it out.

Fight, fight, fight......and while we are at it, watch our customer base go away.....again. Come back to hubs with no part-timers in them because during the strike they all went out and found new jobs.

Strikes are bad for everyone involved and they don't accomplish anything.
 

Inthegame

Well-Known Member
GREAT question 10 2 go. The reason I was told is that there was a "clause" that stated those 22.3 job creations were "volume dependent". I don't even live near a farm and I smell BS from miles away...... This is one HUGE reason I no longer even trust what is written in our conract......this and BS about not subcontracting... like SUREPOST!!!!!
Article 22.3 of the '97-'02 CBA stated, "If there is a reduction in volume causing layoffs, the Employers obligation under this section shall be null and void." Following the '97 strike UPS claimed volume losses (yet still posted record profits) and drove their trucks through this loophole in the Carey/Hall negotiated agreement. The Hoffa led Teamsters filed charges with the NLRB and in March of 2000 enforced the 22.3 job provision forcing UPS to comply, and combo jobs were implemented with many receiving back pay awards. Then the wheels came off because no one properly documented the jobs and here we are with lots of questions. Hoffa had it right in '98 and apparently has now fallen asleep at the wheel. I'm hoping hall is awake.

As an inside employee, how are you negatively affected by Surepost? Don't all Surepost packages go through the sorts, with final delivery made by the USPS? Not saying I like it but FEDEX does offer Smartpost and without a competing service I'm guessing we'd have less volume.
 

Bagels

Family Leave Fridays!!!
I wish I still had the papers I had in the 90's. Yes, Hoffa was a corporate attorney. And some of the cases he worked were against working people. I specifically remember in those papers, a transcript from a trial where the judge dressed down Hoffa for going after working people and siding with this corporation when Hoffa's education was paid for on the backs of working people. I'll see if I can dig it up....it is quite revealing, and shows Hoffa's true colors. Even though Carey was the best thing for the Teamsters in decades, and even though we have taken huge steps backwards since Hoffa became President, we simply have no choice but to back Hoffa right now. That is, as long as the contract proposal we receive is to our favor. Come election time, though, Hoffa deserves no backing.

Carey and his supporters knowingly spread false information about Hoffa in the 1996 election. I previously researched the issue and could confirm that the Carey campaign (or its supporters) issued pamphlets that described Hoffa as an Ivy League-educated former corporate attorney. I could find zero evidence that Hofffa was indeed a corporate attorney, but I could find evidence that Hoffa represented Teamster locals within the Detroit area. It's very unlikely that somebody who represents labor would ever be hired as a corporate attorney - and given that the description of Hoffa as Ivy League educated is false, it's reasonable to assume that this was false information put out by the Carey campaign.

Additionally, it's EXTREMELY unlikely a judge would chasten Hoffa for 'siding with [a] corporation when Hoffa's education was paid for on the backs of the working people.' What if Hoffa's education was paid for through scholarships, government loans, or other outside sources? Such comments would get that judge into legal hot water -- I'm confident they did not happen, and it's more misinformation by the Carey campaign. Since mainstream Internet was in its infancy at the time, fact checking was nearly impossible for the masses.

Again, I voted against Hoffa 3 times and will do so a 4th if I have an opportunity. But I do believe in correcting faux information. The Detroit newspaper provides archives of its newspaper to my school's online library, and covered the acquistion of his law degree & representation of Detroit locals. There was absolutely no mention of any corporate dealings, which I'm sure there would be if it were true. Archives of the New York Times also mentioned that he acquired a law degree and went on to represent labor. I'm confident he was not a corporate attorney.
 

Inthegame

Well-Known Member
The drivers that went out for the entire strike in 1997 lost more in wages in those two weeks than they made over the life of that contract. It's simple math. Figure it out.

Fight, fight, fight......and while we are at it, watch our customer base go away.....again. Come back to hubs with no part-timers in them because during the strike they all went out and found new jobs.

Strikes are bad for everyone involved and they don't accomplish anything.

It is simple math and you're wrong. Under the accepted agreement a full timer working 45 hours a week would have increased earnings of just under $22,577 from '97 to '02. Under the UPS "Last Best & Final" a full timer working 45 hours would have increased earnings of $16,000 (using $3,060 as the bonus for the undetermined 4th year). Full time wage was just over $20 an hour in '97 so "lost" earnings equaled less than $2,900 using the 45 hour per week model at 15 days out. With the IBT negotiated wages each full timer received $3,677 more than the UPS offer and more importantly increased their base $1.60 above the UPS offer going forward. That's nearly $4K additional dollars in the first year of the '02 agreement. Every full time (and long term part time) benefitted from those days on the other side of the fence. That's why that strike was successful.
 
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anonymous6

Guest
The drivers that went out for the entire strike in 1997 lost more in wages in those two weeks than they made over the life of that contract. It's simple math. Figure it out.

Fight, fight, fight......and while we are at it, watch our customer base go away.....again. Come back to hubs with no part-timers in them because during the strike they all went out and found new jobs.

Strikes are bad for everyone involved and they don't accomplish anything.


i agree with you 100 percent but do you have a solution or should we just bend over and take it.?
 

TimeForChange

Well-Known Member
It is simple math and you're wrong. Under the accepted agreement a full timer working 45 hours a week would have increased earnings of just under $22,577 from '97 to '02. Under the UPS "Last Best & Final" a full timer working 45 hours would have increased earnings of $16,000 (using $3,060 as the bonus for the undetermined 4th year). Full time wage was just over $20 an hour in '97 so "lost" earnings equaled less than $2,900 using the 45 hour per week model at 15 days out. With the IBT negotiated wages each full timer received $3,677 more than the UPS offer and more importantly increased their base $1.60 above the UPS offer going forward. That's nearly $4K additional dollars in the first year of the '02 agreement. Every full time (and long term part time) benefitted from those days on the other side of the fence. That's why that strike was successful.

And another benefit was that during the strike, the UPS Teamsters didn't have to deal with UPS harassment :)
 

InsideUPS

Well-Known Member
Article 22.3 of the '97-'02 CBA stated, "If there is a reduction in volume causing layoffs, the Employers obligation under this section shall be null and void." Following the '97 strike UPS claimed volume losses (yet still posted record profits) and drove their trucks through this loophole in the Carey/Hall negotiated agreement. The Hoffa led Teamsters filed charges with the NLRB and in March of 2000 enforced the 22.3 job provision forcing UPS to comply, and combo jobs were implemented with many receiving back pay awards. Then the wheels came off because no one properly documented the jobs and here we are with lots of questions. Hoffa had it right in '98 and apparently has now fallen asleep at the wheel. I'm hoping hall is awake.

As an inside employee, how are you negatively affected by Surepost? Don't all Surepost packages go through the sorts, with final delivery made by the USPS? Not saying I like it but FEDEX does offer Smartpost and without a competing service I'm guessing we'd have less volume.

Inthegame....thanks for info on the 97-02 22.3 agreement. I also keep all prior contract books (back to 1978) but never referred back to the 97 agreement.

My issues with the 22.3 language and apparent violations centered on our current contract. Per our BA, both the 22.3 language violations of the current contract as well as all the 9.5 grievances were to be resolved at the National level through arbitration last March 2012 (not absolutely sure of the month) . We the employees/stewards never heard back what the results of those hearings were. Totally agree with your statement "Then the wheels came off because no one properly documented the jobs and here we are with lots of questions. Hoffa had it right in '98 and apparently has now fallen asleep at the wheel. I'm hoping hall is awake."

In regard to your statement "As an inside employee, how are you negatively affected by Surepost?" The direct answer is, "I'm not". I was actually the first person to learn the SurePost sort and procedure. Our smalls volume increased dramatically. We initially had all kinds of issues considering UPS IE did not plan on the significant number of "large" SurePost "smalls" we were going to get. There were many packages that were 10 pounds and less that would not fit in the SurePost sort bins. Some of these boxes were so large that only 1 or 2 SurePost packages would fit in a SurePost bag.

So, you ask, "What is my problem with SurePost?". The first moment I saw what was happening with SurePost, I could not help but think about our contract language on subcontracting. This was a clear violation of the contract. I immediately called my BA at which time I was informed how this was going to be "good" for UPS and us as employees... SurePost was supposed to create more feeder work and inside work. My immediate concern was about how many DRIVING JOBS SurePost would eliminate. As a 34+ year employee, I really don't worry about myself, but I do have concerns about all the young part-timers that have not been able to go driving because of SurePost. We were once a 115-120 car center. We are now an 80-85 car center.

I understand the need for UPS to compete with FedEx's SmartPost. However, I believe that UPS is abusing the SurePost system in several ways:

First, drivers are going out with more stops than ever before. UPS has taken the lightest and often easiest stops off many of the drivers even though these stops are often at or very near the same location they normally deliver. The result is that these drivers get loaded up with additional stops with heavier packages and more miles. The result is fewer full-time driving jobs and more drivers forced to work over 9.5 hours per day.

Second, it is a dangerous proposition to give your business away to your competitor. I still remember the days when it was drilled into us that the United States Postal Service was a major competitor of ours.

Third, SurePost makes it easier for UPS to work around any type of "Labor Action" in the event a contract agreement cannot be reached.

Fourth, the initial limit for SurePost was supposed to be 10 lbs. It is my understanding that the weight limit of the SurePost package was increased to greater than 10 lbs. So, where does subcontracting our package volume stop?

In summary...I believe that our Union should have properly informed the rank and file of any major contract changes such as SurePost. We should have had the right to vote on this issue. How can we trust our Union not to change other important issues that we have agreed to in the original contract language? No....SurePost does not adversely affect me...but it definitely has reduced full-time driving opportunities for the younger part-time employees. It also has contributed to the longer hours of existing drivers.
 

Catatonic

Nine Lives
That's why that strike was successful.

Do you think UPS is a better place to work today than prior to the strike in 1997?
The changes in attitudes towards employees and even UPS going public were defined and cemented in the aftermath of the 1997 strike.
The UPS BOD and Management Committee changed their attitude towards Teamster employees and felt betrayed.
From that point forward, "UPS" has continuously changed from having a paternal attitude towards it's employees to what it is today.
Still think the strike was successful?
 

brownmonster

Man of Great Wisdom
Do you think UPS is a better place to work today than prior to the strike in 1997?
The changes in attitudes towards employees and even UPS going public were defined and cemented in the aftermath of the 1997 strike.
The UPS BOD and Management Committee changed their attitude towards Teamster employees and felt betrayed.
From that point forward, "UPS" has continuously changed from having a paternal attitude towards it's employees to what it is today.
Still think the strike was successful?

People talk a lot about how it was before the strike or before going public. I remember being pre seniority in 1988 and standing in the back of my truck trying to force too many stops in and the center manager saying "what do we have to do to get you in earlier". My reply, "less stops". It really is not that much different. Back then they guessed if you we're screwed, now they know exactly how bad.
 

InsideUPS

Well-Known Member
The drivers that went out for the entire strike in 1997 lost more in wages in those two weeks than they made over the life of that contract. It's simple math. Figure it out.

Fight, fight, fight......and while we are at it, watch our customer base go away.....again. Come back to hubs with no part-timers in them because during the strike they all went out and found new jobs.

Strikes are bad for everyone involved and they don't accomplish anything.

Greetings 2BOver: Welcome to BrownCafe as I see you recently joined us at the beginning of this year. The general tone of your comments obviously points to the fact that you are against labor disputes. You'll be happy to know that most of us are also..............UNTIL greed or other issues exist that require some level of sacrifice and risk.

I will have to respectfully disagree with you that, "strikes are bad for everyone involved and they don't accomplish anything". I won't go into detail however, I suggest that you read some history books on labor unions and the sacrifices they made for this country and the working man.

It's interesting that you mention about our "customer base going away". The reason I say that is, I was just thinking today, that the best way to deal with a potentially Greedy Wall Street Focused CEO is to hit him where it hurts the most.......No....not there ......in the pocket....the wallet....where they keep all their money.

I am EXTREMELY confident that we will NEVER have to go on strike IF we Union members play this game smart. IF....and I repeat IF....UPS wants to remain greedy during these negotiations....all we have to do is NOT settle....and keep working... Working without a contract will cause UPS to temporarily lose a lot of business. A lot of business equal a lot of money. Losing a lot of money will cause Wall Street investors to drop UPS stock like a rock... UPS CEO's .....especially those that were educated at Wharton Business School in PA....do NOT want our stock to drop. Using Wall Street as leverage against our CEO is the easiest and safest way we can negotiate a FAIR contract. Notice....I said fair... I want our company to remain competitive....
 

Inthegame

Well-Known Member
Inside, I agree with most of your well thought out points, but I believe the over dispatch of drivers has more a bearing on less pkg jobs than SurePost and it is the main cause of 9.5 violations. If SurePost volume was all on Brown trucks, hours would be even longer. UPS has gotten the OK from the IBT because they've convinced enough union big wigs that each SurePost piece (from high volume shippers) brings along 7 non SurePost pkgs as tag along volume. Without that offering the fear is these shippers would go with SmartPost. That said, hall stated SurePost is front and center at the table, with technology available to have SurePost pieces delivered by UPS drivers. We'll see.
Thank you for the green font...by Sunday I'm hoping to be completely green. Erin Go Bragh
 

Inthegame

Well-Known Member
Do you think UPS is a better place to work today than prior to the strike in 1997?
The changes in attitudes towards employees and even UPS going public were defined and cemented in the aftermath of the 1997 strike.
The UPS BOD and Management Committee changed their attitude towards Teamster employees and felt betrayed.
From that point forward, "UPS" has continuously changed from having a paternal attitude towards it's employees to what it is today.
Still think the strike was successful?
Yes and I believe UPS was a better place to work after the '76 strike and locally after the '55 strike because in every case the employees that make this whole thing work were getting shorted and they said no more. Record profits after each interruption prove my point. You were insulated from operations by your own admission. We weren't, we lived it every day. All the Teamsters did in '97 was show the same attitude management shows, that money means everything. Paternal attitude??? Is it easier to sleep with revisionist history? Here's a little paternal attitude story...
Remember "safety parties" when a group went so many hours w/o accidents and earned an employee dinner? Mid 90's at a party and my wife tells a Labor Manager that all UPS employees should be able to buy stock. He smiles his best UPS manager condescending smirk and says "never happen" then adds "do you know why" and finally "because they don't deserve it". Yes, Paternal attitude my eye.
 
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