*********** warning letters

[Just Numbers]

I challenge anyone to name a company, career, job, or position where they expect you to clock out to go to the bathroom- besides UPS. Isn't this in the category of the cost of doing business?

I received two 10 minute PAID breaks every day...so I guess it is the cost of doing business.

 

[Just Numbers]

I agree we need to look at both sides. But is .86 or later justified if the studies are decades old. My team says yeah they are old but thats what we have to abide by, that isnt fair.

Tooner,
Not talking about time studies or overallowed. The .86 is sporh and what the driver demonstrates with sup versus without sup and why UPS would be looking at this imo....has nothing to do with time studies or over allowed. Sorry if I mislead you in any way I apologize.

 

[brownrodster]

Tooner,
Not talking about time studies or overallowed. The .86 is sporh and what the driver demonstrates with sup versus without sup and why UPS would be looking at this imo....has nothing to do with time studies or over allowed. Sorry if I mislead you in any way I apologize.

I always go incredibly slower when sups ride with me than without (having them along is like dragging an anchor). That being said there are numerous reason a driver can do his best and his SPORH decrease by .86 the next day.

However, if I were instructed to maintain a certain SPORH I would do what it takes to maintain that SPORH. If that means leaving a pickup before they are done, scanning a missloaded NDA as missed, DR'ing packages in a driveway instead of going to the house then that's what I would do to maintain that productivity. If jim-bobs business wants his crap early but it's faster for me to deliver later in the day I would never go there early again. I would cut out the customer service and focus on productivity.
It's easy to go faster, you just need to cut corners and not care about the customer anymore.

 

[soberups]

6.83%

Thats what we are talking about here. A 6.83% reduction in SPORH in the week following the two OJS rides that were done on this driver.

The company is trying to solve the "problem" of this particular driver running an an hour overallowed. So they OJS him, he demonstrates good methods and a good work pace...per the sup that rode with him....and he is still an hour overallowed with a SPORH of 12.59.

So he averages 11.73 SPORH the following week, and gets a warning letter for it.

Do we address the flawed timestudy? No. Do we address making improvements in EDD or PAS for this particular route? No. Do we make any effort at all to solve the underlying problem? No.

Instead...we try to bust the drivers balls over a statistically irrelevant variation in his SPORH, in the hopes that he will be intimidated into working off of the clock in order to meet managements unrealistic expectations.

We have 15 minute meetings in the AM with driver and shop steward (half an hour of unproductive time right there) to try and bully and harass him with false threats that have no contractual basis.....all in the vain hope that a measly 6.83% increase in SPORH will, by some miracle, make an entire hour of overallowed time magically disappear.

I swear to God, we have management people working for this company who could hide their own Easter eggs.

 

[toonertoo]

Tooner,
Not talking about time studies or overallowed. The .86 is sporh and what the driver demonstrates with sup versus without sup and why UPS would be looking at this imo....has nothing to do with time studies or over allowed. Sorry if I mislead you in any way I apologize.

I was an hour late with sup.
No need to apologize, Im easily misled

 

[Pump Up The Volume]

Re: ******* warning letters

[

going to the bathroom should be considered break time.


An awful lot of salaried personnel seem to be constantly on break throughout the day.
What's good for the gander should be good for the goose.

 

[ups_vette]

Re: ******* warning letters

My truck is filthy, and after 4 hours of work my hands are filthy. Its company dirt on my hands and it will be washed off on company time.

Your hair grows on "company time", so you must feel it's justified to get your hair cut on "company time"?

 

[trickpony1]

Re: ******* warning letters

Your hair grows on "company time", so you must feel it's justified to get your hair cut on "company time"?

This is priceless.
Everytime Vette posts he gets his plow cleaned.
I'm willing to bet he gets his bell rung before post number 74.

 

[upsman29]

Re: ******* warning letters

what defense are you using here if you can say. Its an interesting issue that probably has the labor guys salivating. to summarize this with Sobers issue:

going to the bathroom should be considered break time.

then again past practice may dictate otherwise.

However there has always been questions as to whether driving to the bathroom would be considered part of break. DOT requirements may dictate that the driver is not on break until he has parked and secured his vehicle.

I'm surprised this one has not been heard and argued somewhere yet.

My defense would be this, no part timer at my center is required to punch out to go to the bathroom... If they are allowed to relieve themselves on the clock then I should be able to do so also... Now I wouldn't drive 15 minutes to go to the bathroom being as i'm an adult I think we should be able to hold it unless something is medically wrong that prevents you from being able to do so...

 

[brownrodster]

When I deliver rural routes I stand in the passenger door and piss from the cab to the ground. I know there's a certain 150 yeard management person here who would nail me to a cross for this. But it is clear to me that if I were to take the time to find a proper bathroom I would be fired for stealing time. And you cannot hold it it. That's not safe. And if it's not safe then don't do it. We need to be safe by choice not by chance.

 

[upsman29]

6.83%

Thats what we are talking about here. A 6.83% reduction in SPORH in the week following the two OJS rides that were done on this driver.

The company is trying to solve the "problem" of this particular driver running an an hour overallowed. So they OJS him, he demonstrates good methods and a good work pace...per the sup that rode with him....and he is still an hour overallowed with a SPORH of 12.59.

So he averages 11.73 SPORH the following week, and gets a warning letter for it.

Do we address the flawed timestudy? No. Do we address making improvements in EDD or PAS for this particular route? No. Do we make any effort at all to solve the underlying problem? No.

Instead...we try to bust the drivers balls over a statistically irrelevant variation in his SPORH, in the hopes that he will be intimidated into working off of the clock in order to meet managements unrealistic expectations.

We have 15 minute meetings in the AM with driver and shop steward (half an hour of unproductive time right there) to try and bully and harass him with false threats that have no contractual basis.....all in the vain hope that a measly 6.83% increase in SPORH will, by some miracle, make an entire hour of overallowed time magically disappear.

I swear to God, we have management people working for this company who could hide their own Easter eggs.

I would check on this, what were the average miles of the 3 day ride compared to the week in question, did he have the same area as he had during the 3 day ride, average packages for the 3 days verse this week, were pickup pieces during the 3dr the same average as the week in question, was his air for the week in question relatively the same as the 3dr... All these things can impact the SPH and they should be looked at... Its very hard to keep a SPH the same because we have so many different things happen each day that can hold us up, UPS has gone away from the over/under because that hasn't worked in their favor over the years... Now they want to lock you in on a SPH and after the 3DR they have added area that is a lot slower to run but want you to still meet the same SPH, I will tell all of you having to deal with this issue, Keep notes of each day of your 3DR detail it with everything in the earlier part of this post... Make sure you know what areas you had for the ride so when you're faced with this in the office you have some defense to explain why you cant meet that SPH... UPS is looking to make examples out of some people and don't let yourself fall in the category...

 

[soberups]

Re: ******* warning letters

Your hair grows on "company time", so you must feel it's justified to get your hair cut on "company time"?

This question is barely worth dignifying with a response, but I'm bored with nothing better to do so what the hell.

No, I do not feel justified in getting a haircut on company time. Hair growth is irrelevant to the work being done.

If my hands get filthy doing UPS's work in the back of UPS's filthy truck, then I will wash that filth off on UPS's time. And if I'm on a rural route and have to spend a few minutes driving to a public restroom, that will be on UPS's time also. If that is not acceptable, then UPS can put a portable toilet/handwash station in the back of the truck. They cant have it both ways.

 

[toonertoo]

This is just silly, If Im dirty, and I can I take a few minutes to clean up, if I have a place, I will. Looking like a scumbag is not proffesional. In the summer Im filthy to my armpits, as they never, ever clean the trucks. If someone could send me a few seedsof some sort, I could plant them, and stuff would grow.
I dont agree that you can set your kidney, or your bladder to your break time. And it can hurt you to try. Maybe when you are younger, but not as you age. All part of respecting the age and physical condition of an employee.
Yes I also used to worry every single day about losing my job. Its out of my hands. I dont worry anymore, I dont like the idea, or my prospects, but I would survive. Actually I feel much better since I gave up hope. If it happens, Ive done all I can. And when you are a good employee, you should not have to worry everyday, thats just wrong.

 

[anonymous6]

Telematics/GPS doesn't concern me as a feeder driver (for now at least) but I knew when I first heard of it there was going to be trouble with it's implementation.

When I was a package car driver, if I wanted to get a drink, go to the bathroom, talk to a customer I liked, buy lottery tickets, whatever...if it made me fall behind a bit I would run my ass off to catch up. I had housing developments that if I really poured it on I could do around 30+ stops per hour. There was never a problem.

But now, with all this technology, you have to be an automaton now. Because if you do not do the route exactly the way they want you to, no matter if you have always been a safe, consistent driver, they might come after you.

When I saw that they were going to take more and more freedom of how we do our jobs away, I got out of package. I always felt if I was giving you what you expect out of me, performance-wise, I shouldn't be micro-managed.



They give you on average 18 minutes to start work, find your tractor, pre-trip it, go to your trailer, properly couple to it, pre-trip it, make sure that it is safe to pull it from the door by verifying with sup, close the doors, drive to the gate, have the guard seal the trailer, call out the trailer, and then leave. 18 minutes. Only a completely overzealous manager tries to hold you to that.

If they get too heavy handed in feeders, I will stop using my cell phone on the job for work and you can believe I will not leave the property if even a license plate light is out in the middle of the day.

I know, I know, I am not supposed to use my phone and I should run to the shop for every little thing. But the thing is, I treat UPS like I want them to treat me...by not sweating the little things (As long as the little things don't involve safety. Safety should never be compromised). We should be working as a team.

If we all just want to ball bust each other, our competition will be ready to roll right over us.

it takes me 15 minutes to find the tractor! then another 15 to pretrip and install my radios. then another 15 to find the trailers. ( doubles ) another 15-20 to build the set and pretrip. another 15 to bring it to the shop to have brakes adjusted and/or find a hiding mechanic. that's why i'm over everyday.

 

[tieguy]

I challenge anyone to name a company, career, job, or position where they expect you to clock out to go to the bathroom- besides UPS. Isn't this in the category of the cost of doing business?

you may have a point. At the same time if legal definition came up for break in front of a panel or courtroom its realistically possible they would rule that going to the bathroom is considered break time.

where sobers issue get interesting is stretching that interpretation to include leaving trace to go to the bathroom. There may be DOT guidelines against that definition not to mention the issue of not having facilities available when you're on route.

 

[tieguy]

Please, somebody, please tell me why our highly educated corporate office cannot see what is happening.

"We have an entire generation of management people who are frightened for their jobs due to the loss in volume.

possible that some are . I'm not sure if I would speak for an entire generation.

Since they have nothing meaningful or relevant to do, they justify their own continued existence by generating reams of meaningless reports and warning letters to create the illusion of being important."

Nice slam on management.

"Its not what you accomplish that gets you promoted in UPS management; its how good you look on paper pretending to accomplish it."

The argument against that point would be that the reams of meaningless reports generated actually make it almost impossible to look good. Many of those reports identify specific service and production indices that you either are good are or not good at. The old days of being able to spruce up a building and hide your mistakes to look good are gone. Now everything you do in management leaves footprints.

I see this happening at my center. You could have not said this any better. What can we do about this? When you are the one on the receiving end of trumped up warning letters what can you do?

are you in a center now? I thought you were a sales person in BD?

 

[soberups]

...where sobers issue get interesting is stretching that interpretation to include leaving trace to go to the bathroom. There may be DOT guidelines against that definition not to mention the issue of not having facilities available when you're on route.

The solution to this issue isnt going to be found in the contract and it isnt going to be arbitrarily manufactured or measured by a Telematics report.

The solution is going to involve reasonable people sitting down and examining each situation on a case-by-case basis.

A guy who spends all day delivering to a mall or shopping center doesnt need to break trace at all to find food or a bathroom. Its all there within walking distance.

A guy who drives 300 miles a day in Wyoming or Death Valley probably will need to break trace to find food or a bathroom, and he might have to drive a loooong way. You cant require someone to eat lunch in the truck when its 115 in the shade or 10 below zero, and you cant tell them not to take bathroom breaks or wash their hands.

And then there are all the situations that fall in between.

IMHO the principle that should be followed is this; we should have a right to spend a reasonable amount of time driving a reasonable distance on the clock in order to eat and use a restroom. 15 miles might be reasonable for one route; one block might not be reasonable on another.

Unfortunately, management is no longer empowered to be reasonable. Under the rigid yoke of Telematics they must apply arbitrary, one-size-fits-all solutions to a wide variety of problems.

 

[dannyboy]

Couple of things.

First, Sporh is an outdated number ever since they came up with the over and under set of production numbers. As long as he is over the same amount as he was when they rode with him, he is doing the same job. That is proven by the UPS time study. You can be over an hour one day and run a 15 Sporh, and then be even the next and run a 14.5.

Per the company's time study, you had a hell of a good day, even though you ran less Sporh.

So that would be easy to go back to check what drove the driver to drop production on Sporh if he was still only an hour over.

As for bathroom breaks, as long as that package car is moving, you have to be paid. Period. Dont matter if it on trace or not. IF it is moving, you had better be on the clock.

Now, once you have gone to where you are eating lunch and pull the keys, you hit your diad for break/lunch/what ever. When you get back, you get back on the clock to drive back.

Interesting thing, drivers driving while not on the clock.

We had a driver years ago that would leave before start time, by about 15-20 minutes. Got into a problem when before his start time he was fiddling with something in the cab as he raced down the road and ran a carload of kids being taken to school by mom, off the road and into a guy wire, where it overturned.

Technically UPS could have claimed the driver stole the package car.

IF the car moves, you are on the clock, that simple. I am sure the DOT (as tie mentioned) also has language that deals with this subject.

As for bathroom breaks, dont abuse it. But also dont go into a home either. And unlike some of the nasty nut cases have posted, dont use your package car as a crapper. Thats just plain nasty.

You can argue the finer points of being off or on the clock while at the bathroom. But not driving there and back.

d

 

[raceanoncr]

IF the car moves, you are on the clock, that simple. I am sure the DOT (as tie mentioned) also has language that deals with this subject.


d

Yes, the DOT has VERY specifice language on that.

In sleepers, we have been stuck many times in Chi or other cities traffic, sometimes for hours. In order to keep on our drive/sleep schedule, the first reaction is to log out, that is, log sleeper time, break time or just plain off duty (which then would require you to have a full 10 hours off, so that was impossible) while you are still behind the wheel sitting, maybe just inching forward, maybe just sitting.

The DOT requires that you log all of that time as "on duty-driving". That means if you are in control of that machine, rolling or not and have to be alert for movement or anything that happens, you are on duty and driving.

Applied to package TRUCKS, anytime you are required, for any reason, to be in control of that vehicle, you are "on duty-driving", you are getting paid and are not required to punch out for break. Of course, once you are out of vehicle, as stated before, driving time stops.

Also, to those in other threads that said they were required to take their lunches in their P/Cs (which should never happen anyway), same rule applies. Ordered by company to be in control of vehicle? Get paid. Simple.

 

[soberups]

Couple of things.

First, Sporh is an outdated number ever since they came up with the over and under set of production numbers. As long as he is over the same amount as he was when they rode with him, he is doing the same job. That is proven by the UPS time study. You can be over an hour one day and run a 15 Sporh, and then be even the next and run a 14.5. ...
d

WRONG!!!

SPORH is the only measurement that is even remotely relevant when there is a disciplinary action being taken over a production dispute. Its a simple, verifiable number....stops divided by on road hours.

Over/under allowed is not recognized by the contract, nor should it ever be. The "allowances" are totally under the control of the company and can be changed at any time, for any reason, at the sole discretion of the company. They cannot be verified or disputed. If wrong, they will never be corrected. They are intentionally rigged to creat a "standard" that can only be met by working off of the clock. As far as the union is concerned, they are contractually irrelevant.