Gov healthcare
- Thread starter DS
- Start date
ajblakejr
Age quod agis
Thank you for posting.
I am deathly afraid of nationalized health care. The article touched on some of my fears...
"When the government is the only payer, it rules out market signals that improve service and efficiency. We provide free coverage for minor services so we don't always have enough resources for timely major services. A more sensible system, while excluding no one, would include co-payments for front-end costs up to a reasonable maximum, depending on the patient's ability to pay.
Only an adequately funded universal health plan can protect all of us from major and catastrophic occurrences. But there will never be adequate funding if we continue to rely solely on government to provide for every minor expense.
Co-payments based on income would introduce a new source of funding to remedy this imbalance. It would encourage improved service rather than rationing. "
I am deathly afraid of nationalized health care. The article touched on some of my fears...
"When the government is the only payer, it rules out market signals that improve service and efficiency. We provide free coverage for minor services so we don't always have enough resources for timely major services. A more sensible system, while excluding no one, would include co-payments for front-end costs up to a reasonable maximum, depending on the patient's ability to pay.
Only an adequately funded universal health plan can protect all of us from major and catastrophic occurrences. But there will never be adequate funding if we continue to rely solely on government to provide for every minor expense.
Co-payments based on income would introduce a new source of funding to remedy this imbalance. It would encourage improved service rather than rationing. "
tourists24
Well-Known Member
So let me get this straight.... your taxes go up in order to pay for healthcare.... now in order to straighten things out, you dont "exactly" raise taxes more, you simply add a copay. This adds incentive to do the right thing how? Sounds like it's more taxation on top of already high taxes. I admittedly like the sound of getting full healthcare, but dont want the government doing it. I need convincing....
I was following a thread on this subject on another BB, where people from both France and Canada chimed in. While they acknowledged certain drawbacks, they all felt their system of national health care was better than ours. I didn't hear from anyone who thought they would be better off under a US style system, that's not to say they don't exist though.
Health care costs, particularly in retirement, are something I think about more and more. The last time we had a big meeting down at the Union Hall, it was to announce that health care costs for upcoming retirees would be doubling. It was a real eye opener, and keep in mind that my local's pension fund is extremely well managed and currently has one of the best payouts in the country.
My wife and I have seriously discussed retiring to Canada, so I appreciate this timely article DS.
Health care costs, particularly in retirement, are something I think about more and more. The last time we had a big meeting down at the Union Hall, it was to announce that health care costs for upcoming retirees would be doubling. It was a real eye opener, and keep in mind that my local's pension fund is extremely well managed and currently has one of the best payouts in the country.
My wife and I have seriously discussed retiring to Canada, so I appreciate this timely article DS.
UpstateNYUPSer(Ret)
Well-Known Member
The one major drawback of the Canadian health system, from what I have both read and been told, is the amount of time that you have to wait to see a doctor, especially a specialist. A number of athletes will come down to the States to seek treatment because of this delay. The healthcare itself is on par with that offered in the States and, as it does here, will vary from doctor to doctor.
My concern is bridging the gap between retirement and Medicare.
My concern is bridging the gap between retirement and Medicare.
Babagounj
Strength through joy
I would like to know when " Health care ' became a right.
this whole subject is weird. I came from a very large family (13 ), we had no insurance, bills were paid when money was available along with school & other bills, my father worked two jobs ( one private / one for the government [part time ] )yet no one died from the lack of care.
But that was in another era , when people cared.
Today its a gimmie-gimmie lifestyle . And BHO is leading the charge of making everyone demand that their gov't supply all their daily needs plus some more.
I for one say NO.
If you want something then EARN IT.
Our freedoms were earned, my right to post here and say what I want was earned.
If you need BHO to keep you supplied with freebies then you don't belong here, neither does he.
this whole subject is weird. I came from a very large family (13 ), we had no insurance, bills were paid when money was available along with school & other bills, my father worked two jobs ( one private / one for the government [part time ] )yet no one died from the lack of care.
But that was in another era , when people cared.
Today its a gimmie-gimmie lifestyle . And BHO is leading the charge of making everyone demand that their gov't supply all their daily needs plus some more.
I for one say NO.
If you want something then EARN IT.
Our freedoms were earned, my right to post here and say what I want was earned.
If you need BHO to keep you supplied with freebies then you don't belong here, neither does he.
wkmac
Well-Known Member
How much of that from all sides of the pond is really based more on "the devil that you know" more than any other thing? There's always gonna be a kinda "home team" loyality but the truth is, ours as well as any of theirs has positive and negatives. We got where we are because medicine was taken from the patient and the local doctors (free market) to more and more towards the control of a State/Corp. structure and IMHO this latest move is nothing more than a mopping up action towards a vast State/Corp. monopoly/cartel or State/Corp. rightwing socialism if you will.
My real fear is not some single payer gov't plan which in it's pure principle (non-aggression theory) I oppose but my fear is a true State created/sponsored medical monopoly that strictly forbides natural or holistic approaches for example. Or maybe you aren't one of the big pharma companies, better yet the hurdles of a new company entering the market becomes impossible.
How about home birth for example with a midwife which in the case of 3 of our 4 kids cost in total from pre-natal, delivery and post natal visits a $1000.00 each which Central State refused to pay because the medical monopoly via insurance companies made sure that happened. We fought that battle and lost bigtime. Now had we gone the normal route of $5k to $10k birth method, all would have been covered. But here it was after the fact, all had gone well and we saved Central States anywhere from $12k to as much as $25k but because there's a monopoly on how children are born in this country!
Jones,
Why don't you put in a request for that money I saved the union and I'll even sign a petition for you and the Mrs's to get it! I'd be just as thrilled for you guys to get it because IMO "WE" earned it!
DS
Fenderbender
Upstate,I don't really know a lot about how it works other than what I've experienced because its always been there.As far as wait times go,when I broke my finger 5 months ago,I waited about 3 hours for the xray,and had a doctor reset it an hour later.I saw several people with more serious problems go in that arrived after I did.I've had 2 colonoscopies that I waited about 3-4 months for.I have heard a few horror stories about some specific things that are not covered, but overall,it seems to work well.I'm not surprised that some well paid folks in sports pay for immediate care south of the border.That article is quite informative,but I found the comments section that follow were even more so.
av8torntn
Well-Known Member
Not to put your choice of health care systems down but sounds like very long wait times. Three hours for an xray? Are you serious? Three to four months for a colonscopy? One could have serious cancer and you must wait three to four months for the test. I would be afraid to ask how long you would wait to start treatment if something were wrong. I would consider this outrageous. It is my understanding that health care is a right up there. I cannot believe you guys put up with that.
Down here most docs can give you an xray at their office immediately. I had a bronchospy two days after a doc decided I needed one only because I had to get a CT scan first which was scheduled the following morning and if I had wanted I could have gotten it the same day. We can get an MRI done most times within a couple hours as the past year I've had to get two done.
brett636
Well-Known Member
Not to mention I've read the horror stories of the time it takes just to get in a typical doctor's office for a checkup or other minor issue. Having to wait weeks to see a doctor, or even years for one to be assigned to you is ridiculous in my opinion. This is not even taking into consideration the time to see a specialist if a real problem arises. If I need to see a doctor I can leave my home and be speaking with my doctor in about an hour, including driving time, with no appointment made prior. Could I do that in Canada? Will I still have that luxury here with nationalized healthcare? Our system may be expensive, and have its flaws, but considering our country appears to be the safe haven for people all over the world needing medical care I don't think its all that bad. Not to mention the fixes are nowhere near as complicated as the messiah and the dems are proposing.
Something else to ponder is what happens to our healthcare as we age? My grandfather was diagnosed with malignant melanoma when he was 86 years old. A previous doctor's visit had messed up on the diagnosis as something much less severe so by the time he was properly diagnosed the cancer had spread in and around his neck and head area. About a month after the proper diagnosis he had surgery to remove the cancer and went through several weeks of radiation therapy to kill of what may have remained. His last checkup came back cancer free and he is still with us to this day. Would this have happened in Canada, France, or England? Would he have been told you led a good long life and this is your time to die? Or would the waiting line for such a surgery be so long that he would have died waiting for treatment like so many other stories I have heard?
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Babagounj
Strength through joy
http://www.defendyourhealthcare.us/osbrokenpromises.html
This site explains O great health plan in detail along with the pages items can be found.
This is very scary.
BHO is lying to the American Public . You will not be able to keep your present Dr. . Any changes to your existing policy ( a co-pay change, a change in services, added coverage ) will automatically force you onto the gov't plan. If you can not prove to the IRS that you have coverage, they will rat you out. There are fines for you to pay, $1,000's basically what ever some pencil pusher decides.
No more private health plans.
Children with diabilities will recieve no care.
Elderly will be denied life extension surgeries.
Under BHO's idea of health only the young will reside in the USA.
This site explains O great health plan in detail along with the pages items can be found.
This is very scary.
BHO is lying to the American Public . You will not be able to keep your present Dr. . Any changes to your existing policy ( a co-pay change, a change in services, added coverage ) will automatically force you onto the gov't plan. If you can not prove to the IRS that you have coverage, they will rat you out. There are fines for you to pay, $1,000's basically what ever some pencil pusher decides.
No more private health plans.
Children with diabilities will recieve no care.
Elderly will be denied life extension surgeries.
Under BHO's idea of health only the young will reside in the USA.
wkmac
Well-Known Member
Considering all the talk about gov't healthcare and the power of gov't to affect or even enforce various means of health provisions, I found this piece about drug gaint Glaxo Smith Kline and it's latest flu vaccine rather interesting. In the article it stated the following:
So because of the dire need now for something, they will in effect, move around drug trials and go ahead with mass distribution and then test after the fact. What about liability from adverse reactions? Got ya covered. Just days ago, our good gov't announced that both themselves and the drug companies would be immune from liability. Where's the need now for "accountability" which oddly enough was one of those buzzwords the current regime loved to pander to the gullible voter.
I wonder if those same gov't officials in "BOTH" parties would want to disclose and discuss this and give full details and "transparency" (another buzzword) on exactly where this money and to whom it was spent? I'm betting not! Notice the sharp rise after the 2006' "CONGRESSIONAL" elections?
When it comes to vaccines and especially mandated gov't programs, maybe we should start learning things ourselves and begin asking detailed questions of our doctors and healthproviders. Learn everything you can to be informed and then if you choose to take any vaccine, you do so as an informed consumer. Also learn what you can do yourself to make you and your family heathier and therefore less prone to these kind of health "crisis".
IMO Gov't healthcare is about monopoly and cartelization to the benefit of the biggest connected companies who will vastly profit from the killing off of smaller market competition. Don't be conned to sleep by big med/big pharma with the brer rabbit trick of "Don't throw me in the briar patch!"
jmo
So because of the dire need now for something, they will in effect, move around drug trials and go ahead with mass distribution and then test after the fact. What about liability from adverse reactions? Got ya covered. Just days ago, our good gov't announced that both themselves and the drug companies would be immune from liability. Where's the need now for "accountability" which oddly enough was one of those buzzwords the current regime loved to pander to the gullible voter.
I wonder if those same gov't officials in "BOTH" parties would want to disclose and discuss this and give full details and "transparency" (another buzzword) on exactly where this money and to whom it was spent? I'm betting not! Notice the sharp rise after the 2006' "CONGRESSIONAL" elections?
When it comes to vaccines and especially mandated gov't programs, maybe we should start learning things ourselves and begin asking detailed questions of our doctors and healthproviders. Learn everything you can to be informed and then if you choose to take any vaccine, you do so as an informed consumer. Also learn what you can do yourself to make you and your family heathier and therefore less prone to these kind of health "crisis".
IMO Gov't healthcare is about monopoly and cartelization to the benefit of the biggest connected companies who will vastly profit from the killing off of smaller market competition. Don't be conned to sleep by big med/big pharma with the brer rabbit trick of "Don't throw me in the briar patch!"
jmo
brett636
Well-Known Member
Just incase some of you are on the fence regarding this bill check out these fun things found in it.
http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&friend=5&t=903496
• Page 22: Mandates audits of all employers that self-insure!
• Page 29: Admission: your health care will be rationed!
• Page 30: A government committee will decide what treatments and benefits you get (and, unlike an insurer, there will be no appeals process)
• Page 42: The "Health Choices Commissioner" will decide health benefits for you. You will have no choice. None.
• Page 50: All non-US citizens, illegal or not, will be provided with free healthcare services.
• Page 58: Every person will be issued a National ID Healthcard.
• Page 59: The federal government will have direct, real-time access to all individual bank accounts for electronic funds transfer.
• Page 65: Taxpayers will subsidize all union retiree and community organizer health plans (read: SEIU, UAW and ACORN)
• Page 72: All private healthcare plans must conform to government rules to participate in a Healthcare Exchange.
• Page 84: All private healthcare plans must participate in the Healthcare Exchange (i.e., total government control of private plans)
• Page 91: Government mandates linguistic infrastructure for services; translation: illegal aliens
• Page 95: The Government will pay ACORN and Americorps to sign up individuals for Government-run Health Care plan.
• Page 102: Those eligible for Medicaid will be automatically enrolled: you have no choice in the matter.
• Page 124: No company can sue the government for price-fixing. No "judicial review" is permitted against the government monopoly. Put simply, private insurers will be crushed.
• Page 127: The AMA sold doctors out: the government will set wages.
• Page 145: An employer MUST auto-enroll employees into the government-run public plan. No alternatives.
• Page 126: Employers MUST pay healthcare bills for part-time employees AND their families.
• Page 149: Any employer with a payroll of $400K or more, who does not offer the public option, pays an 8% tax on payroll
• Page 150: Any employer with a payroll of $250K-400K or more, who does not offer the public option, pays a 2 to 6% tax on payroll
• Page 167: Any individual who doesnt' have acceptable healthcare (according to the government) will be taxed 2.5% of income.
• Page 170: Any NON-RESIDENT alien is exempt from individual taxes (Americans will pay for them).
• Page 195: Officers and employees of Government Healthcare Bureaucracy will have access to ALL American financial and personal records.
• Page 203: "The tax imposed under this section shall not be treated as tax." Yes, it really says that.
• Page 239: Bill will reduce physician services for Medicaid. Seniors and the poor most affected."
• Page 241: Doctors: no matter what speciality you have, you'll all be paid the same (thanks, AMA!)
• Page 253: Government sets value of doctors' time, their professional judgment, etc.
• Page 265: Government mandates and controls productivity for private healthcare industries.
• Page 268: Government regulates rental and purchase of power-driven wheelchairs.
• Page 272: Cancer patients: welcome to the wonderful world of rationing!
• Page 280: Hospitals will be penalized for what the government deems preventable re-admissions.
• Page 298: Doctors: if you treat a patient during an initial admission that results in a readmission, you will be penalized by the government.
• Page 317: Doctors: you are now prohibited for owning and investing in healthcare companies!
• Page 318: Prohibition on hospital expansion. Hospitals cannot expand without government approval.
• Page 321: Hospital expansion hinges on "community" input: in other words, yet another payoff for ACORN.
• Page 335: Government mandates establishment of outcome-based measures: i.e., rationing.
• Page 341: Government has authority to disqualify Medicare Advantage Plans, HMOs, etc.
• Page 354: Government will restrict enrollment of SPECIAL NEEDS individuals.
• Page 379: More bureaucracy: Telehealth Advisory Committee (healthcare by phone).
• Page 425: More bureaucracy: Advance Care Planning Consult: Senior Citizens, assisted suicide, euthanasia?
• Page 425: Government will instruct and consult regarding living wills, durable powers of attorney, etc. Mandatory. Appears to lock in estate taxes ahead of time.
• Page 425: Government provides approved list of end-of-life resources, guiding you in death.
• Page 427: Government mandates program that orders end-of-life treatment; government dictates how your life ends.
• Page 429: Advance Care Planning Consult will be used to dictate treatment as patient's health deteriorates. This can include an ORDER for end-of-life plans. An ORDER from the GOVERNMENT.
• Page 430: Government will decide what level of treatments you may have at end-of-life.
• Page 469: Community-based Home Medical Services: more payoffs for ACORN.
• Page 472: Payments to Community-based organizations: more payoffs for ACORN.
• Page 489: Government will cover marriage and family therapy. Government intervenes in your marriage.
• Page 494: Government will cover mental health services: defining, creating and rationing those services.
http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&friend=5&t=903496
• Page 22: Mandates audits of all employers that self-insure!
• Page 29: Admission: your health care will be rationed!
• Page 30: A government committee will decide what treatments and benefits you get (and, unlike an insurer, there will be no appeals process)
• Page 42: The "Health Choices Commissioner" will decide health benefits for you. You will have no choice. None.
• Page 50: All non-US citizens, illegal or not, will be provided with free healthcare services.
• Page 58: Every person will be issued a National ID Healthcard.
• Page 59: The federal government will have direct, real-time access to all individual bank accounts for electronic funds transfer.
• Page 65: Taxpayers will subsidize all union retiree and community organizer health plans (read: SEIU, UAW and ACORN)
• Page 72: All private healthcare plans must conform to government rules to participate in a Healthcare Exchange.
• Page 84: All private healthcare plans must participate in the Healthcare Exchange (i.e., total government control of private plans)
• Page 91: Government mandates linguistic infrastructure for services; translation: illegal aliens
• Page 95: The Government will pay ACORN and Americorps to sign up individuals for Government-run Health Care plan.
• Page 102: Those eligible for Medicaid will be automatically enrolled: you have no choice in the matter.
• Page 124: No company can sue the government for price-fixing. No "judicial review" is permitted against the government monopoly. Put simply, private insurers will be crushed.
• Page 127: The AMA sold doctors out: the government will set wages.
• Page 145: An employer MUST auto-enroll employees into the government-run public plan. No alternatives.
• Page 126: Employers MUST pay healthcare bills for part-time employees AND their families.
• Page 149: Any employer with a payroll of $400K or more, who does not offer the public option, pays an 8% tax on payroll
• Page 150: Any employer with a payroll of $250K-400K or more, who does not offer the public option, pays a 2 to 6% tax on payroll
• Page 167: Any individual who doesnt' have acceptable healthcare (according to the government) will be taxed 2.5% of income.
• Page 170: Any NON-RESIDENT alien is exempt from individual taxes (Americans will pay for them).
• Page 195: Officers and employees of Government Healthcare Bureaucracy will have access to ALL American financial and personal records.
• Page 203: "The tax imposed under this section shall not be treated as tax." Yes, it really says that.
• Page 239: Bill will reduce physician services for Medicaid. Seniors and the poor most affected."
• Page 241: Doctors: no matter what speciality you have, you'll all be paid the same (thanks, AMA!)
• Page 253: Government sets value of doctors' time, their professional judgment, etc.
• Page 265: Government mandates and controls productivity for private healthcare industries.
• Page 268: Government regulates rental and purchase of power-driven wheelchairs.
• Page 272: Cancer patients: welcome to the wonderful world of rationing!
• Page 280: Hospitals will be penalized for what the government deems preventable re-admissions.
• Page 298: Doctors: if you treat a patient during an initial admission that results in a readmission, you will be penalized by the government.
• Page 317: Doctors: you are now prohibited for owning and investing in healthcare companies!
• Page 318: Prohibition on hospital expansion. Hospitals cannot expand without government approval.
• Page 321: Hospital expansion hinges on "community" input: in other words, yet another payoff for ACORN.
• Page 335: Government mandates establishment of outcome-based measures: i.e., rationing.
• Page 341: Government has authority to disqualify Medicare Advantage Plans, HMOs, etc.
• Page 354: Government will restrict enrollment of SPECIAL NEEDS individuals.
• Page 379: More bureaucracy: Telehealth Advisory Committee (healthcare by phone).
• Page 425: More bureaucracy: Advance Care Planning Consult: Senior Citizens, assisted suicide, euthanasia?
• Page 425: Government will instruct and consult regarding living wills, durable powers of attorney, etc. Mandatory. Appears to lock in estate taxes ahead of time.
• Page 425: Government provides approved list of end-of-life resources, guiding you in death.
• Page 427: Government mandates program that orders end-of-life treatment; government dictates how your life ends.
• Page 429: Advance Care Planning Consult will be used to dictate treatment as patient's health deteriorates. This can include an ORDER for end-of-life plans. An ORDER from the GOVERNMENT.
• Page 430: Government will decide what level of treatments you may have at end-of-life.
• Page 469: Community-based Home Medical Services: more payoffs for ACORN.
• Page 472: Payments to Community-based organizations: more payoffs for ACORN.
• Page 489: Government will cover marriage and family therapy. Government intervenes in your marriage.
• Page 494: Government will cover mental health services: defining, creating and rationing those services.
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ajblakejr
Age quod agis
Last edited:
klein
Für Meno :)
Well, here is a Canadian. But, thinking you don't have to have national healthcare like ours (even though it's proven to be the worlds best).
But, did you Americans know, you're the only country in the enetire western world, that doesn't have national healthcare ????
That is soo stupid !
People lose homes, lose lives, because they have no insurance.
Walk in clinics, they are open almost 24 hrs a day here. I can go in , anytime. No charge.
You americans need healthcare reform. The working don't want it, ofcourse not, company pays for it. But, wait , where does the company get the money from ? - Think of that... everyone pays for it.
You also need metric system ! Everything is metric, your space program, the ml, and miligrams of medication you get.
Get with the rest of the world finally ! And that includes National Healthcare !
But, did you Americans know, you're the only country in the enetire western world, that doesn't have national healthcare ????
That is soo stupid !
People lose homes, lose lives, because they have no insurance.
Walk in clinics, they are open almost 24 hrs a day here. I can go in , anytime. No charge.
You americans need healthcare reform. The working don't want it, ofcourse not, company pays for it. But, wait , where does the company get the money from ? - Think of that... everyone pays for it.
You also need metric system ! Everything is metric, your space program, the ml, and miligrams of medication you get.
Get with the rest of the world finally ! And that includes National Healthcare !
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