Production termination!

[BigBrownSanta]

So when they ride us we should "play tricks" to lose time?

No, you use ALL the methods to hedge against being railroaded.

I have a feeling you have never been in this position.

 

[brownrodster]

In a 24 hour period this thread has 128 replies and over 2,240 views. But this is not really a big deal in many of your eyes! How long before the next driver gets canned?

We don't have enough info. You haven't shared many details at all. My numbers fluctuate a lot and I think it's shocking if he got fired for coming in low a few times but don't know if that's what happened.

One route I know very well I can vary by a lot of stops per hour. On a fast day, with lots of resi, light businesses, and easy pickups i'll do 18.5
SPORH. On a day with heavy business deliveries, insane pickups, and light res I'll struggle to hit 16 SPORH. Pickups alone can take an hour longer on a heavy day on this particular route. They expect a 15 SPORH on this route and I've never gone that low in my life so they've never bothered me. Seen other people who rarely do the route hit 14-15 SPORH when they try it though.

A different route I did last week for two days I did 18.5 SPORH my first day. The next day I did at or just under 17 SPORH. Same effort each day. Just different kinds of packages and bulk and air each day.

So if the guy is just getting fired for coming in a couple stops per hour under a few times then I think that's extremely tragic. But we don't have enough info to even determine that.

I once had a two hour stop. Full p1 with many over 70's to one house. Had to hand truck them all down a long driveway. I had an hour stop recently. 60 thirty pound packages to the fourth floor of an office building. It's pretty easy to swing a couple stops per hour in my opinion. But those instances are easily documentable.

 

[rod]

If your working on an assembly line putting one widget on top of another in a controlled enviornment with the belt speed permanently set I can see where the copmpany can expect and demand a constant output, but there are so many things that can and do go wrong during an average drivers day that I can't for the life of me understand how you could be terminated for it. Every time study I ever had ran on me was done in the middle of the summer on dry roads with a load that you knew was especially prepared. For this reason I didn't get too concerned when being yelled at after having a bad day once in awhile. It's a sad day at UPS. Now are they going to start firing all the management that aren't meeting their promised goals also?

 

[tieguy]

I wonder where the numbers starting getting skewed? Red said originally 1 to 1 1/2 stops, now all of a sudden (relatively speaking) it's up to 3 stops. If this happens so easily in here then imagine how easy it is for numbers to be skewed in the office where no one is watching. Theres a big difference between 9/13 stops and 27/36 stops.




Brownie, wasn't trying to pick on you, you just happened to be at the top of the column. LOL

I think Red was posting as he read through the decision. He did later correct to 3 stops an hour.

 

[tieguy]

In my opinion, which holds little weight, the arb did not like him, the company did not like him, the union feared him, and this is why he was fired. Now everyone in package can be disciplined because its hard to find an arbitrator that will rule against another arbitrators decision in a similar case. Local 804 just sold everyone of us out to save their lazy back sides!

I think its possible that these may have been contributing factors in the case. In fairness though he may have given them the bullet they loaded in the gun?

There have been people that have gone to panels and talked theirselves out of jobs.

I think the union representation issue is a dead issue. He is asked at the end of his panel hearing if he feels the union represented him properly and if he feels all the facts were heard.

 

[JimJimmyJames]

Production goals must be quantifiable or performance is impossible to measure. Who's to say what "realistic production goals" are. While it sounds nice it's nebulous and vague. UPS applies stringent standards but for 60k to 70k a year with benefits what else would you expect.

Who's to say is I.E. The problem is what they "say" is not realistic. Looked at another way, if one of my children consistently earned an honest C grade in math, is it fair to demand them to bring home an A? And then go one further and equate the C with an friend? Especially when I know damn well that an A is unrealistic. I am setting my child up for failure by expecting ridiculous goals.

Realistic goals can be set. UPS knows what they are. They use unrealistic ones on purpose as a psychological tactic to increase production. Hell, all I wish is that the company would just admit it. I would respect them more.

Don't pee on my head and tell me it's raining.

 

[New Englander]

No, you use ALL the methods to hedge against being railroaded.

I have a feeling you have never been in this position.

Nope...never had an issue with my production. It's the same when they ride with me and when they don't.

I've had bad days with them riding with me.

You guys all want to make $65,000 to $95,000 a year and the company to have no recourse if you decide to go "slow" as he did.

 

[705red]

The ice storm defense doesn't work and you should have known better.
The ENTIRE driver team showed a decrease in production.

You didn't answer my question though. Since you don't think we should be fired for it. Tell me how much I can soak the company for before you think I should be fired.

Regardless if he did or not. Let's get some sort of guideline.

Do i have drivers that dont make ups's numbers, absolutely. But knowing my guys i work with i do not personally think anyone of them is a dirt bag and ,ilkig the company. If the company wants a guideline they should negotiate it with the union. But that to would be hard because every route changes and every route is not the same.

You act as if the company has never expanded the contract for its benefit in the past. How many people do you know of that are pulled for dishonesty today only to get offered their jobs back tomorrow as a suspension? I had a driver who forgot to sheet 1 missed package that was out of center, so its a missed no matter what, they tried firing him on his first offense, didhonesty! Whats dishonest about that? He forgot it after working a 10 hour day.

Red, New Englander has a valid point, Im not saying your friends firing was or wasnt justified but it brings up the bigger issue of what is the standard, if I have an employee that cant lift 70lbs, cant load (or deliver) goals. Youre handed a job description and the requirements when your hired by accepting a job are you not obligating to hold that standard?

Drewed, you can not fire someone for not being able to lift 70lbs!

 

[JustTired]

SPORH, in my opinion, is the most inaccurate way to measure a drivers performance. As previously stated, every element associated with the job has an effect on this number. Miles, load condition, average pkgs per stop, CODs, weather, add/cuts, etc.

The most accurate measure was the over/under. I say was because there was a time when that measurement was fair. With additions such as the diad and PAS/EDD, time was taken away from the time-studied measurement based on inaccurate and overly-optimistic assumptions of time savings. Now, it is more or less a joke. It would take a realistic time-study to bring these numbers into line.

Seeing as that will most likely never happen, I would make these suggestions. Document everything! With digital cameras being fairly inexpensive, buy one. Take pictures of your load before going out on production rides. Take pictures of your load every day after that. Keep track of miles driven, number of CODs, weather conditions and all other pertainent elements of the job. It may seem like overkill, but it may one day save your job.

It's a shame that it has come to this. But we seem to be living in a CYA world. It may be the price you have to pay when your compensation is above the national average.

 

[dilligaf]

No, you use ALL the methods to hedge against being railroaded.

I have a feeling you have never been in this position.

Very good point, BBS. Take breaks/lunch when you are supposed to. Don't take any short cuts. Don't give a resi del. to a busi where the customer works. There's hundreds of little shortcuts we use everyday to save time, but don't use them when you are getting lock ins.

 

[gandydancer]

...The arbitrator's own words said that there is more to the 4 corners of a contract than whats written in it! No joke! I would love to cut and paste some of her ruling, but i cant do it in adobe, any way that i can do it....

I too would like to see some of what the arbitrator actually said. I think you just need a more recent copy of Adobe Reader. My AR no longer lacks the ability to copy text from pdf files and am pretty sure the reason is that Adobe no longer imposes that limitation. If I'm wrong, however, there are competitive (and free) programs like "PDF-XChange PDF Viewer" that you can use for that purpose.

 

[Channahon]

Another valid point that is brought up around the guys. I know he does spend alot of time in the office and usually has his air taken off him.His am starts when he leaves the building, but most of his air is removed. I would assume he can enter union time in the diad but who really knows. There is a little more to the story coming out little by little.

Here'e the scenario as I see it.

Driver comes in every day and punches in, advises center team he needs to take some time for union business, perhaps to sit in on a disciplinary issue, or catch up on some paperwork.

UPS takes air off the driver to ensure time commit deliveries for his customers.

He documents his time in his DIAD as union time, enters his AM time, and leaves the building. Now his on road time starts, and for some reason, he's unable to perform his job as he did when a lock in ride was done. Not little variances in his SPORH but 3 stops, as noted in other posts, is quite a bit of time.

So only the driver knows what is causing his performance to slip, he, the Union and UPS, go through the discplinary process, that doesn't work, so the employee got terminated.

At that point, it's up to him and the Union to get his job back, and UPS prepares their documentation for the case.

Dispciplinary issue cannot be resolved, so an arbitrator is called in, the facts are presented by both sides, and he loses his job.

In today's world of lawsuits, it is in the best interest of UPS and the Union to fairly represent their cases, without any indifference if the employee is a steward, or planning on running for a BA position.

I don't see this as setting a precedant for performance, as I have seen terminations like this as far back as 25 years ago. However, these types of cases are rare, and were based under "not working as instructed"

Sounds like this driver was respected by his peers, and as tough as the economy and job market are right now, hopefully he can use his skills as both a driver and union steward to pursue a new career.

 

[Omega man]

SPORH, in my opinion, is the most inaccurate way to measure a drivers performance. As previously stated, every element associated with the job has an effect on this number. Miles, load condition, average pkgs per stop, CODs, weather, add/cuts, etc.

The most accurate measure was the over/under. I say was because there was a time when that measurement was fair. With additions such as the diad and PAS/EDD, time was taken away from the time-studied measurement based on inaccurate and overly-optimistic assumptions of time savings. Now, it is more or less a joke. It would take a realistic time-study to bring these numbers into line.

Seeing as that will most likely never happen, I would make these suggestions. Document everything! With digital cameras being fairly inexpensive, buy one. Take pictures of your load before going out on production rides. Take pictures of your load every day after that. Keep track of miles driven, number of CODs, weather conditions and all other pertainent elements of the job. It may seem like overkill, but it may one day save your job.

It's a shame that it has come to this. But we seem to be living in a CYA world. It may be the price you have to pay when your compensation is above the national average.

You are absolutely correct! A much better and more accurate gauge would be an over\under system that takes many more variables into account than that which is currently used. The more variables you look at, the closer you approximate that which is truly occurring. Sort time is one good example of this. Consistency in the over and under is a much better way of gauging performance. I can't believe that UPS has I.E. people who believe otherwise. They are truly not looking at it as engineers should!

 

[JohnnyPension]

"Work today as you think you might be able to in 20 years".

Those were the first words spoken to me by a high seniority driver when I started back in '81. Of course he meant don't kill yourself, and he was right, but it also meant to me do the job right from day one. It was what got me through all those years.

It was something I always passed on to all the young'uns. So all you young drivers out there......

 

[trickpony1]

A supervisor once told me:

"if you ain't behind, you ain't working."

so I try to be behind every chance I get.

 

[rod]

A supervisor once told me:

"if you ain't behind, you ain't working."

so I try to be behind every chance I get.

That makes about as much sense as the day I was told to "quit playing in the sandbox".

 

[ih8tbrn]

A race car driver by the name of Ricky Bobby once said "if you aint first you're last."

 

[spuman]

Let me make sure I understand you. When you say you follow the methods UPS taught you, what you're really saying is you follow the methods UPS taught that you AGREE with. Any UPS method that you disagree with, you replace with a method the you make up. In your words, you don''t have to follow the UPS methods because your methods are better.

That's an interesting thought process you have when in your mind "you follow the methods".

What other UPS methods that you disagree with have you replaced with your own methods?

May I express my opinion? Thanks it won't take long.

The number one reason drivers don't follow UPS methods is to save time.
Right or wrong (most times wrong)we just want to get done and go home,
or maybe just tired of getting harassed for prodoction.What ever the case may be not following methods is not to get more hours.

Case in point;did you see the video where the guy takes two steps out
of his pkg car ,shotguns one to the front porch and gets back in his truck
before it stops rockin'(and that's just the obvious ,to the trained eye there were several things wrong with that picture).

Corperate has taken so much time away from us that some drivers feel pressured to take short cuts ,while others end up on you tube,or worse
in an accident.

Personally, I try to follow methods but I know I fall short.I once read
on the BC thre were over 600 Proper methods.I would very much like to see them ,if not to better myself as a driver,then to say I was properly
trained.

 

[pretzel_man]

May I express my opinion? Thanks it won't take long.

The number one reason drivers don't follow UPS methods is to save time.
Right or wrong (most times wrong)we just want to get done and go home,
or maybe just tired of getting harassed for prodoction.What ever the case may be not following methods is not to get more hours.

Case in point;did you see the video where the guy takes two steps out
of his pkg car ,shotguns one to the front porch and gets back in his truck
before it stops rockin'(and that's just the obvious ,to the trained eye there were several things wrong with that picture).

Corperate has taken so much time away from us that some drivers feel pressured to take short cuts ,while others end up on you tube,or worse
in an accident.

Personally, I try to follow methods but I know I fall short.I once read
on the BC thre were over 600 Proper methods.I would very much like to see them ,if not to better myself as a driver,then to say I was properly
trained.

The most current version of the 340 methods is about 75 pages long. Its broken into 18 sections. I don't know exactly how many methods are included in those pages.

There are seperate methods documents for EDD vs. non-EDD drivers, and also a different document on stop recording.

Ask your supervisor to download it from the iGate and go over it with you.

P-Man

 

[ups_vette]

Where, ever, in BC did I say I was perfect and followed every method exactly and where more specifically in this thread did I say this. I didn't. I am not perfect, I do the best I can. If I do something wrong then it is between me and my sup and has NOTHING to do with YOU! So go suck an egg.

And for your information I was never taught any methods.

1st of all, it most certainly does have SOMETHING to do with me, and every other UPS stockholder. If you are not using the proper methods and it is taking you longer to complete your day's work and being overpaid for that day's work, it DOES EFFECT ME as a long time stockholder.

Out of one side of your mouth you say you were never taught any methods, while out of the other side of your mouth you stated you don't use the method you were taught to keep the keys on your finger. Which is it? Were you or were you not taught methods? It's statements like that the make one doubt any and everything you post.

Also, what's with the comment "go suck an egg"? Do you have a sucking fixation?