Clinton unveils mandatory health care insurance plan

av8torntn

Well-Known Member
If those numbers are correct, which I wouldn't be surprised if they were, then it only backs up what I said before about people and their priorities. They seem to have them backwards.


US Census Bureau but since it does not correlate to what some on here think get ready for the neo con, free speech ,bush lied av8torntn is selfish , it must be right wing normal response from some on here. It would seem that they do more than count heads once every ten years. Who would've guessed? A government agency doing something other than what was originally intended? Oh and one thing that I could not find is how many of the uninsured are illegal aliens. I found plenty of estimates but nothing that seemed reliable.
 

beatupbrown

Well-Known Member
38% of the uninsured (17 million) live in households earning over $ 50,000 in annual income

--20% (9 million) reside in households earning over 75,000 a year

--Over 18 million (40%), between the ages of 18 and 34, spend more on entertainment or dining out

--14 million ( 31%) are elegible for health government programs like Medicaid, but choose to opt-out.



Could it be that some of these people choose not to have health insurance? I would guess most of these choose not to have health insurance.


Can I see A link to this info?
 

govols019

You smell that?
Amendment X


The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people.

This is all it should take to stop the talk about a Federal health insurance plan. It's unconstitutional.
 

wkmac

Well-Known Member
This is all it should take to stop the talk about a Federal health insurance plan. It's unconstitutional.

On principle I agree with you and AV8 but you have one major problem. First off, the 14th amendment opened up the states to federal jurisdiction as it totally changed the nature of the meaning of the term citizen and with that how far federal level jurisdiction can follow. President Eisenhower commissioned a report in 1956' to be drafted on this issue of fedral jurisdiction entiled, Jurisdiction Over Federal Areas Within the States. I've had this 2 volume work for about 20 years and have read it and it is dry and boring but it's also eye opening at the same time. I know this is stupid of me but if by chance you feel compelled to read this, it is now thank God on the net at: http://www.constitution.org/juris/fjur/fj0-0000.htm

Also we sat by without objection and allow the commerce clause to be abused for the sake of not only political interests but corp. interests as well. There is an old concept in law that
Failure to object timely is fatal!
We have failed to object in the past when the federal gov't federalized retirement (social security) worksite insurance (worker's comp) old age health insurance (medicare) medical drug benefits (Bush's recent medical drug plan) education (Bush and Kennedy's No Child Left Behind) energy (regulation and controlled free market by subsidizing oil even enacting a tax revenue model by funding roads via a tax on oil. Shift to a new means of energy will require a new ta model first. Ah! the secret for not moving away from oil.) We sit on our hands like good little comformists that we are and dare not utter a wimper of objection and then we proudly proclaimed we did our part by voting in the last election for the other guy, not the one who has us in whatever the current malaise is at the time.

Jez guys, I could go on and on and on but the simple fact is that we have sat on our :censored2: and let both parties seemingly sing a different tune from one another but in fact it's the same old song. Wile one party sing it at one tempo the other party sings it at another. Depending on the verse, it comes down to just who is singing the faster tempo at the time. In the end it's all the same and so are the end result.

Hillary's music that she's singing now was in fact written in 2005' with the help of the great defender of the conservative faith Newt Gingrich.

THAT'S A FACT JACK!!!!!!!!

Bothsides want to nationalize health care but the question is are you willing to accept a lite or dark version. You fear Dracula (Hillary or the politics she represents) so you run into the arms of Frankenstein (Newt or the politics he represents) Either way, the monster gets you in the end!

One of my favorite songs from back in my teenage years was Monster by Steppenwolf. The last line of Monster before it transitions over into the song Suicide goes as follows:


And though the past has it's share of injustice
Kind was the spirit in many a way
But it's protectors and friends have been sleeping
Now it's a monster and will not obey


What's also interesting is the opening verse to Suicide.

The spirit was freedom and justice
And it's keepers seem generous and kind
It's leaders were supposed to serve the country
But now they won't pay it no mind
'Cause the people grew fat and got lazy
And now their vote is a meaningless joke
They babble about law and order
But it's all just an echo of what they've been told
Yeah, there's a monster on the loose
It's got our heads into a noose
And it just sits there watchin'

http://www.steppenwolf.com/lyr/mnnster.html

Man I love those days but we sure as hell forgot what we learned IMO!
 

av8torntn

Well-Known Member
Wkmac I think the abuse of the commerce clause has more to do with it than anything. But that is just my opinion. I also think just like before when people start to understand the details of this "plan" it will come to a swift end again. If it does pass it will be interesting to see if it produces another Reagan or Goldwater.
 

av8torntn

Well-Known Member
On principle I agree with you and AV8 but

Also we sat by without objection and allow the commerce clause to be abused for the sake of not only political interests but corp. interests as well. There is an old concept in law that We have failed to object in the past when the federal gov't federalized retirement (social security) worksite insurance (worker's comp) old age health insurance (medicare) medical drug benefits (Bush's recent medical drug plan) education (Bush and Kennedy's No Child Left Behind) energy (regulation and controlled free market by subsidizing oil even enacting a tax revenue model by funding roads via a tax on oil. Shift to a new means of energy will require a new ta m


Well I have plenty of objections but this is not the time or place. To me and this is where I broke from the Ron Paul types we are a nation at war and I had to vote for the only guy who did not want to surrender that had a chance to win. So it is with more than a little pain that I accept no child left behind and government prescription drug coverage. To his credit he did try and chip away at social security and he lowered my taxes. Hopefully soon we will oh well probably not but at least I can try and stop new abuses by the federal government.
 

brett636

Well-Known Member
Not only is our Healthcare system failing us, but here's an example of our Education System failing us also...BTW don't forget to mention "aquitted" by the senate.


With every post you make I am amazed at how undeducated you are on economics and government procedures. Read a little, you might learn something.
 

diesel96

Well-Known Member
With every post you make I am amazed at how undeducated you are on economics and government procedures. Read a little, you might learn something.

Alright Einstien, why don't you educate me? Why would you call someone out without backing it up. Your opinion is pointless unless you can provide facts, figures and reasoning behind your posts. This posts reminds me of a child making a prank phone call and shouting "your dumb" then hanging up.
Or is this your little fetish to call someone "uneducated" who's views oppose your's when you have nothing left.

__________________________________________________
"The Constitution is not an instrument for the government to restrain the people, it is an instrument for the people to restrain the government - lest it come to dominate our lives and interests." ....Patrick Henry
 

brett636

Well-Known Member
Alright Einstien, why don't you educate me? Why would you call someone out without backing it up. Your opinion is pointless unless you can provide facts, figures and reasoning behind your posts. This posts reminds me of a child making a prank phone call and shouting "your dumb" then hanging up.
Or is this your little fetish to call someone "uneducated" who's views oppose your's when you have nothing left.

Nothing left huh? Let me try and educate you then

I was going to leave this topic alone assuming it had died, but alas it has not, and your ignorance is too great to keep me quiet.

In your last reply to me you said the following:

Not raise taxes on the wealthy but end Republican backed tax cuts.

Thats called raising taxes. Taxes are lowered and you want to raise them. Taxes are wealth redistribution as they take from those that have more to give to those that have less. Wealth redistribution= socialism.

The national debt is different from the Federal deficit...Debt is the accumulated deficits over the years,,the deficit is the amount spent over the amount we took in.The more the Gov't spends over what they budget themselves, the more they have to borrow and the more drastic our debt becomes.

Thank you clarifying the obvious, but you failed to reply to what I said. If things are allowed to go as they are our government will be running a surplus in tax money. That means by 2011 they will be bringing in more money than they are spending and thus can put that extra money towards paying down the national debt. Raising taxes as you suggested to pay for bloated healthcare programs that would be run by the government would end all that. Hillary's program is estimated at $110 billion, but thats not what it will really cost. A similar program suggested by John Kerry during his failed presidential campaign was estimated at costing $1.5 trillion over 10 years. Signifigantly more than hillary's own estimate. Lets not also forget the democrats who tried to expand the SCHIP program by raising taxes on cigarrettes. The one major problem with it is to pay for its true cost we would need more Americans smoking than those that already smoke to pay for this program. Will you pledge to smoke a pack a day for the children?

Again not wealth redistrubution,cutting tax cuts,implimenting a medicare style public plan(for those who choose it)creating competition and lowering costs across the board including pharmcueticals which pays for the social expenditures. Why do you resisters want to be in bed with pharamcuetical and insurance companies for?

Again, raising taxes on any group of Americans is taking money from them to give to those who do not deserve it. That is WEALTH REDISTRIBUTION. Anyone who has studied Macroeconomics knows that taxes are considered transfer payments, that means they are not treated as in increase in our national output, but taking from one group of people to give to another.

I would much rather my money to go to pharmacuetical and insurance companies who will take their profits and invest it in places that will ultimatly end up with me recieving better care. The freemarket system so far has provided us with the best healthcare system in the world, and your the one trying to ruin it for us all.
 

beatupbrown

Well-Known Member
Brett you are not grasping some basic concepts here that we have covered over and over again .
Quote from Brett

I would much rather my money to go to pharmaceutical and insurance companies who will take their profits and invest it in places that will ultimately end up with me receiving better care. The free market system so far has provided us with the best healthcare system in the world, and your the one trying to ruin it for us all
Here are they facts Brett read real slow
The U.S. health system spends a higher portion of its gross domestic product than any other country but ranks 37 out of 191 countries according to its performance, the report finds. The United Kingdom, which spends just six percent of GDP on health services, ranks 18 th . Several small countries – San Marino, Andorra, Malta and Singapore are rated close behind second- placed Italy.

The United States ranked last out of 23 industrialized nations in infant mortality, with a rate of seven deaths per 1,000 live births, compared to 2.7 in the top three countries;
the United States tied for last in health life expectancy at age 60, indicating a shorter life expectancy and more years of life with poor health and disability;
one-third of adults and more than half of children do not have a primary care medical home;
more than one in three adults under age 65 were underinsured or uninsured at some time in the past year, and more than one in three have problems paying their medical bills or have medical debt they're paying over time;
the United States ranks 15th out of 19 countries in deaths before age 75 from preventable conditions given timely and effective medical care; and
the United States lags "well behind" other industrialized countries in adoption of EHRs with 17 percent of U.S. physicians using EHRs, compared to 80 percent of physicians in the top three comparative nations.
Improving access to primary care through both universal coverage and a health financing system that encourages the use of medical homes would resolve many of the U.S. health system woes, according to the Commonwealth Fund report.
The scorecard is based on data gathered for the Commonwealth Fund Commission on a High Performance Health System. Commission researchers looked at 37 indicators for health outcomes, quality, access, equity and efficiency developed by the Institute of Medicine, HHS, the Agency for Healthcare Research and Quality and the National Committee for Quality assurance
 

brett636

Well-Known Member
Beatupbrown- You are the one missing the point here. Those statistics you mentioned are extremely vague and do not say how they are measuring "performance". Yes we spend a lot on healthcare, but we do have the best healthcare system in the world to show for it.

Don't believe me? Then tell me why when the King of Jordan was diagnosed with cancer he came to the U.S. and not Italy, Canada, the UK, or even his own country for treatment. All over the world people who have the ability to choose between their own country's healthcare system and ours they choose the U.S. Why? Because they know they can get the best treatment, by the best doctors in the world right here in our own backyard.
 

beatupbrown

Well-Known Member
Brett the point I am trying to make make to you is multi facet .The middle class and lower income people of the USA are struggling in our profit driven health care.
WHO's assessment system was based on five indicators: overall level of population health; health inequalities (or disparities) within the population; overall level of health system responsiveness (a combination of patient satisfaction and how well the system acts); distribution of responsiveness within the population (how well people of varying economic status find that they are served by the health system); and the distribution of the health system's financial burden within the population (who pays the costs).
Do you understand this last paragraph?:confused:1
http://www.who.int/whr/2000/media_centre/press_release/en/index.html
The U.S. health system spends a higher portion of its gross domestic product than any other country but ranks 37 out of 191 countries according to its performance, the report finds. The United Kingdom, which spends just six percent of GDP on health services, ranks 18 th . Several small countries – San Marino, Andorra, Malta and Singapore are rated close behind second- placed Italy.
If you are rich no problem you can pay for the best Beverly Hills doctors money can buy.
But most Americans are told by the insurance company what treatment what drugs to take .
The lucky ones who have insurance have, to pay the deductible that could bankrupt you.
47 million people have no insurance so they get sick and go to a emergency room where by law the
Hospital have to take you.
This information is every where, common knowledge
 

av8torntn

Well-Known Member
Brett the point I am trying to make make to you is multi facet .The middle class and lower income people of the USA are struggling in our profit driven health care.
WHO's assessment system was based on five indicators: overall level of population health; health inequalities (or disparities) within the population; overall level of health system responsiveness (a combination of patient satisfaction and how well the system acts); distribution of responsiveness within the population (how well people of varying economic status find that they are served by the health system); and the distribution of the health system's financial burden within the population (who pays the costs).
Do you understand this last paragraph?:confused:1
http://www.who.int/whr/2000/media_centre/press_release/en/index.html
The U.S. health system spends a higher portion of its gross domestic product than any other country but ranks 37 out of 191 countries according to its performance, the report finds. The United Kingdom, which spends just six percent of GDP on health services, ranks 18 th . Several small countries – San Marino, Andorra, Malta and Singapore are rated close behind second- placed Italy.
If you are rich no problem you can pay for the best Beverly Hills doctors money can buy.
But most Americans are told by the insurance company what treatment what drugs to take .
The lucky ones who have insurance have, to pay the deductible that could bankrupt you.
47 million people have no insurance so they get sick and go to a emergency room where by law the
Hospital have to take you.
This information is every where, common knowledge


I really think you are the one who is missing the point. In
America 89% are satisfied with the quality of care they receive, 83% are satisfied with the ability to get emergency care, 79% are satisfied with the ability to get top notch specialists, 78% are satisfied with the ability to get the latest treatments, 73% are satisfied with the ability to get non emergency treatment without having to wait.

It is an outright lie to say people that do not have insurance have to go to an emergency room. My doctor treats people without insurance as do many others. 75% of Americans had no problem paying their medical bills. 11% of those people that did made over 75000 last year.

37% of Americans say the real problem is medical malpractice suits. 23% of Americans think the problem is our aging population.


80% of Americans think you should have more freedom and be able to shop around for the best price on insurance and medical care.


86% of Americans think the government should offer tax BREAKS to business to offer health insurance.

47% think more expensive drugs and treatments are better than less expensive ones compared to 43% who do not.

Source ABC news USA today Kaiser foundation.



As far as you last paragraph goes the reason it has been around awhile. The reason if I remember correctly that these numbers were proven false was they took the way each country reported their numbers as fact. I think the biggest was in America a baby still born counted against life span and maybe Cuba if a baby died in the first two weeks it was like it never existed. I am just going off memory here and it is a little shaky in my old age. The point is there were lots of experts that did not agree with this when it first came out.

The real point is people think they will be getting something for nothing and that never happens. Health care will likely become more expensive when you add more government control and will likely become less available.
 
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diesel96

Well-Known Member
Nothing left huh? Let me try and educate you then

I was going to leave this topic alone assuming it had died, but alas it has not, and your ignorance is too great to keep me quiet.

In your last reply to me you said the following:



Thats called raising taxes. Taxes are lowered and you want to raise them. Taxes are wealth redistribution as they take from those that have more to give to those that have less. Wealth redistribution= socialism.



Thank you clarifying the obvious, but you failed to reply to what I said. If things are allowed to go as they are our government will be running a surplus in tax money. That means by 2011 they will be bringing in more money than they are spending and thus can put that extra money towards paying down the national debt. Raising taxes as you suggested to pay for bloated healthcare programs that would be run by the government would end all that. Hillary's program is estimated at $110 billion, but thats not what it will really cost. A similar program suggested by John Kerry during his failed presidential campaign was estimated at costing $1.5 trillion over 10 years. Signifigantly more than hillary's own estimate. Lets not also forget the democrats who tried to expand the SCHIP program by raising taxes on cigarrettes. The one major problem with it is to pay for its true cost we would need more Americans smoking than those that already smoke to pay for this program. Will you pledge to smoke a pack a day for the children?



Again, raising taxes on any group of Americans is taking money from them to give to those who do not deserve it. That is WEALTH REDISTRIBUTION. Anyone who has studied Macroeconomics knows that taxes are considered transfer payments, that means they are not treated as in increase in our national output, but taking from one group of people to give to another.

I would much rather my money to go to pharmacuetical and insurance companies who will take their profits and invest it in places that will ultimatly end up with me recieving better care. The freemarket system so far has provided us with the best healthcare system in the world, and your the one trying to ruin it for us all.


If you don't understand the Republican version of tax cuts (and you are not alone), maybe this will help explain it:
50,000 people went to a baseball game, but the game was rained out. A refund was then due.
The people in the $75 seats get back $175.
Because the funds collected are not sufficient to pay the extra $100-per-ticket for the $75 seatholders and the $12-per-ticket refund processing fees, the team borrows the money to cover the shortfall.
They then announce that the only way they can make a profit and pay back the debt is to attract more $75 ticket buyers back to the ballpark, and thus begin offering them incentives such as free baseball jerseys and massages. They subcontract out the purchasing and distribution of the jerseys and the operation of the massage center to friends of the team owner, paying 40% more than if they ran the services themselves, claiming that the real cost savings are in not increasing an already bloated team bureaucracy.
When the $75 tickets do not sell like hotcakes, they borrow $500,000 to commission a study on what will attract more $75 ticket buyers. The study is performed by a marketing firm the team's general manager used to work for, takes 3 years, and runs $300,000 over budget. The final answer is that the $75 ticket buyers want a private entrance to the park so they don't have to mingle with the $10, $25, and $50 ticket buyers.
The team borrows $3.5 million to construct the private entrance. They give a no-bid contract to a contractor who is a good friend of the team's owner. The contractor proceeds to use shoddy materials and undocumented, undertrained workers who are paid minimum wage. Not surprisingly, the completed entrance fails its safety inspection by the city.
The team sues, claiming the city's safety regulations are too restrictive and unfriendly to business. They lose the suit when the jury takes a trip to see the new entrance and two jury members are struck by falling bricks, knocked loose by the vibrations from a passing truck.
The team starts a bidding process and gets a new contractor to tear down the unsafe entrance and rebuild it to code with properly trained workers, griping about the costs all the way. They borrow money to pay the lawyers who lost their suit against the city, and borrow money to pay the new contractor, but because the first contractor was a good friend of the team owner, he is never sued over his shoddy work or all the money it cost the team.
Finally, a year and a half behind schedule and $4.5 million over budget, the new private entrance is completed and passes inspection. The $75 seat holders start returning in a trickle, but it becomes a flood when the team offers free beer and hotdogs in the luxury area.
With all the $75 seats filled, the team is still losing money because their profit margin on those seats is slim after all the free beer, free hotdogs, team jerseys, and massages. The team determines that the only way to become profitable is to convert the $50 area to $75 seats. Though the profit margins are slim, they state they'll make it up in volume.
They borrow another $14 million to renovate the $50 seat area to bring it up to par with the $75 seats.
Still failing to make a profit, they raise the $10 seats to $35 and the $25 seats to $55, plus increase concession stand prices in the former $10 and $25 areas by 20%.
After all this, the team still isn't making a profit. They now owe their creditors an amount greater than four times their annual revenues, and continue to borrow money to subsidize the giveaways to the buyers of the most expensive tickets, hoping against hope that this will turn things around.
Now do you understand? If not, please contact President Bush so he can tell you that questioning his actions presents a divided front to America's enemies and as such only emboldens them. So sit down and shut up before your questions force Homeland Security to change the threat level to a sort of teal with purple flecks in it. Are you trying to cause another 9/11?
 

beatupbrown

Well-Known Member
Here we go again when you have a debate on the internet you make point with a link ,I Make a point with a link. It is really quite simple stuff. When I see information , I need to see who was the author.
 
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beatupbrown

Well-Known Member
Here’s A survey I found .http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/563188
Backing up my point about the middle class are big part of the folks with out insurance.
Surveys also suggest that many of those going without insurance are middle-class and employed
The nonprofit Families USA group used data from last month's U.S. Census Bureau report that found 47 million Americans went without health insurance for all of 2006.
In the United states, an employer generally supplies health insurance. But rising costs mean fewer employers are offering this benefit.
The report found that more than 79 percent of those without insurance were in families in which at least one person had a job, 70.6 percent were themselves employed full-time, and 8.7 percent were employed part-time.
The number of uninsured has reached crisis proportions that must be addressed by the President and Congress to ensure that health coverage is available and affordable for all," Pollack said
 

av8torntn

Well-Known Member
Here’s A survey I found .http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/563188
Backing up my point about the middle class are big part of the folks with out insurance.
Surveys also suggest that many of those going without insurance are middle-class and employed
The nonprofit Families USA group used data from last month's U.S. Census Bureau report that found 47 million Americans went without health insurance for all of 2006.
In the United states, an employer generally supplies health insurance. But rising costs mean fewer employers are offering this benefit.
The report found that more than 79 percent of those without insurance were in families in which at least one person had a job, 70.6 percent were themselves employed full-time, and 8.7 percent were employed part-time.
The number of uninsured has reached crisis proportions that must be addressed by the President and Congress to ensure that health coverage is available and affordable for all," Pollack said


I think I have offered plenty to show a very large group of these people choose to not have insurance. You like most others choose the emotional path. Health care is good so we should have the federal government force it on everyone. You ignore all facts. I would guess you can read the constitution. It is very clear. It limits the power of the federal government. You do not like this so you somehow decide the middle class is in a crisis mode and you should force me to take care of them.
Oh and when you say you need to see who the author was you probably should have read the post since I included the information for you. I think maybe you want Uncle Sam to provide that for you also. Bottom line you can offer no good reason for the Federal government to force me to pay for your health care. As I read your post I see that you now want to tell people where they work. I would guess that is your point when you say 79% of people work at a job that offer no health insurance. If you were really concerned about rising costs in health care you would be trying to get government out. Let limit malpractice lawsuits, lift the rule that only lets insurance sell on a state by state basis, allow doctors to post prices so you can price shop. No I think you really do not want better health care. Like most others you want to become dependent on the government. I suppose since you cannot think for yourself and you need links so someone else can think for you I will break down and give you a few.


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19886666/site/newsweek/

http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=21660

http://www.kff.org/kaiserpolls/upload/7572.pdf

http://www.opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=110010266

http://www.ibdeditorials.com/IBDArticles.aspx?id=265417031832194

http://www.census.gov/


If you get done with that there are plenty more.
 
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beatupbrown

Well-Known Member
We have a health crisis in USA what part of that do you not understand.
I feel like I am talking to A alcoholic who is in denial because he has not gotten a
DUI or totaled their car. You have insurance and do not see the battle causalities of the health care crisis, you need to do much more research, keep A open mind.

Before the beginning of summer I had my annual medical. It was only a matter of seconds before my doctor, a decent old salt who's seen it all, began complaining about his lot. Like every doctor I've spoken to throughout the US in the past two or three years, he didn't know whether he could take the chaos of American health care much longer. The previous month, he had seen a very elderly patient who was already dying from malignant melanoma; but as he was examining the old man, he happened to notice that one of his toes had developed a bad fungal infection. He duly whipped off a prescription for the standard treatment - a daily dose of 250mg Lamisil tablets for 90 days - and thought nothing more of it.
But Americans will never accept - shock, horror, gasp - socialised medicine, will they? Letting the government dictate which doctor they should have and what treatment they receive? Like those poor old washed-up Brits? For decades, that contrived chorus of indignation from the combined might of the medical industry itself, the pharmaceutical giants, the supine politicians who do their bidding and the pliant, unquestioning media has worked wonders in perpetuating a con trick. The result until recently has been that, aided by stupendous self-delusion and ignorance, most Americans really have been brainwashed into thinking they have the best health care system in the world.
 
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