Drop Out of Your 401k

[vantexan]

What year was that? I'll check what I got that year when I get back to work.I'm not married.I lived in Brandon and worked out of Richland. I know the area fairly well.Guarantee when I retire, I will be far from struggling. Hard to struggle when you're debt free.

Good for you. The year was 2010. We got no raise in 2009, 2 or 2.2% in 2010, and a new payraise plan in 2011 that's considerably less than what was in place in 2008, which was less than what we got in late 90's early 2000's.

 

[vantexan]

Finally something we can all agree on.

Well now, this isn't indentured servitude...no one is making you read this. You can leave anytime you like.

 

[UpstateNYUPSer(Ret)]

Well now, this isn't indentured servitude...no one is making you reading this. You can leave anytime you like.

I left a while ago--I've been phoning it in.

 

[vantexan]

I left a while ago--I've been phoning it in.

Ah, that explains it.

 

[59 Dano]

Have been reading newspaper articles about how CEO's and other exec's have been getting the lion's share of the income in this latest "recovery". Meanwhile the middle class continues to get squeezed. Occurred to me that we do have one weapon available to make a point to them: our 401k accounts. Weekly billions are being pumped into the market from our paychecks. Supposed to set us up for retirement but for many of us we don't make enough to properly fund our 401k. Thus we don't receive much for our efforts and we are also in danger of having our funds greatly reduced in a crisis. But collectively our contributions are used to buy stock on the open market. Those who own large amounts of stock i.e. our corporate exec's benefit greatly from this buying. And to insure that the mutual funds buy large amounts of their company's stock they pay out many millions in stock dividends while holding down our pay. We contribute to their success with little to show for it. It's time we show them we do matter and deserve better. If you want to make a point to those who benefit greatly from this system then withdraw from any stock funds in your 401k. Better yet put your contribution at 0% until they wake up and see we do matter. And spread the word!!

I'm a little late to this dance, but this strategy is insane. Heck, the reasoning used for it is insane.

Vanguard buys stocks based on expected performance. Why? Their own profits are based on the performance of the investments that they offer. Anyone who thinks that giving up FREE MONEY in the form of matching contributions to "stick it to the man" needs to have his head examined.

 

[vantexan]

I'm a little late to this dance, but this strategy is insane. Heck, the reasoning used for it is insane.Vanguard buys stocks based on expected performance. Why? Their own profits are based on the performance of the investments that they offer. Anyone who thinks that giving up FREE MONEY in the form of matching contributions to "stick it to the man" needs to have his head examined.

Sigh...not about sticking it to the man, it's about sticking up for ourselves. And, obviously, it's not going to happen. Just want the company monitors to sit up and say "what the hell" and just give them food for thought. Don't worry, the world will go on as before, the screwers will still be doing the screwees, and the cow that looked around above the herd and remarked "well I'll be, we're all standing in " will go back to munching grass. The beat goes on....

 

[brett636]

Look, if you are that unhappy then quit. Go to your boss TODAY and turn in your letter of resignation. There is nothing keeping you there. I've come across many fellow UPS workers who feel the same as you do and I would offer them the same advice.

 

[vantexan]

Look, if you are that unhappy then quit. Go to your boss TODAY and turn in your letter of resignation. There is nothing keeping you there. I've come across many fellow UPS workers who feel the same as you do and I would offer them the same advice.

You are 29 years old. You may have the tiger by the tail, but you haven't experienced, nor are you likely to, having worked most of your adult life to have the rug pulled out from under you. By the folks who told you every year in specific terms what you'd receive if you hung in there with them. The same folks who are raking it in while telling you if you are going to remain an employee you will have to settle for alot less. You don't know what it feels like, it's no skin off your back, so just shrug and go do your great paying job. Wait, don't tell LTFedExer it's a great paying job with great benefits, he doesn't think it is. Can't be, it's not FedEx.

 

[59 Dano]

Sigh...not about sticking it to the man, it's about sticking up for ourselves. And, obviously, it's not going to happen. Just want the company monitors to sit up and say "what the hell" and just give them food for thought.

Do you know what would be at risk if enough people do it? "Wow, employees' SFA scores suggest that they aren't compensated fairly but there they are turning down free money," and actions speak louder than SFA scores. Plus, it would only improve the bottom line.

I know you're speaking in hypothetical terms and understand your frustration, but it's suicide to turn down free money. A former employer killed off the match due to poor participation and later killed off the 401k program completely because of even poorer participation. No matter what the reasoning for non-participation is, it will be interpreted as "They don't want it and there's no reason for us to pay for it."

 

[vantexan]

Do you know what would be at risk if enough people do it? "Wow, employees' SFA scores suggest that they aren't compensated fairly but there they are turning down free money," and actions speak louder than SFA scores. Plus, it would only improve the bottom line. I know you're speaking in hypothetical terms and understand your frustration, but it's suicide to turn down free money. A former employer killed off the match due to poor participation and later killed off the 401k program completely because of even poorer participation. No matter what the reasoning for non-participation is, it will be interpreted as "They don't want it and there's no reason for us to pay for it."

No doubt you are right. It's just ironic that employers are holding down pay and benefits to beef up profits to attract mutual funds who want the dividends shelled out from those profits. And the mutual fund companies who manage our 401k's are using OUR money to buy the stock. But we who are paid less and less won't be able to finance a decent retirement. Only those who make enough truly will, the rest of us will work into our late 60's. At least. And in their pursuit of higher profits many of us won't be able to afford the kind of home we'd like, and I'm not talking about a mansion. We're just supposed to be happy we have a job. Not the kind of country I grew up in, and those who cover for what's going on tend to have a stake in what's happening. The rest of us are apparently supposed to shut up and just take it. They've already turned this into a service economy, now they've set their sights on pay and benefits. What's next? It's just a matter of time before they get rid of Social Security. Think of the profits from not having to match our SS contributions. I've seen and heard alot of talk in the last few years from the Repubs about how bad SS is. And I'm not a Democrat. Interesting times we live in.

 

[59 Dano]

No doubt you are right. It's just ironic that employers are holding down pay and benefits to beef up profits to attract mutual funds who want the dividends shelled out from those profits. And the mutual fund companies who manage our 401k's are using OUR money to buy the stock.

I'm not sure what you mean with the remark about dividends. Individual stocks might pay dividends (depends on the company). The companies that handle them, such as Vanguard, either do it on a fee basis, a percentage (of the contribution, the growth, etc.), or a something similar. Financial instruments can be insanely confusing and a lot of terminology is misused all over the place by society as a whole.

I wouldn't worry about the companies using our money to buy the funds. That's just the way it works and it gives them a reason work in the interest of the customer. If they deliver results, it entitles them to charge higher fees.

But we who are paid less and less won't be able to finance a decent retirement. Only those who make enough truly will, the rest of us will work into our late 60's. At least. And in their pursuit of higher profits many of us won't be able to afford the kind of home we'd like, and I'm not talking about a mansion. We're just supposed to be happy we have a job. Not the kind of country I grew up in, and those who cover for what's going on tend to have a stake in what's happening. The rest of us are apparently supposed to shut up and just take it. They've already turned this into a service economy, now they've set their sights on pay and benefits. What's next? It's just a matter of time before they get rid of Social Security. Think of the profits from not having to match our SS contributions. I've seen and heard alot of talk in the last few years from the Repubs about how bad SS is. And I'm not a Democrat. Interesting times we live in.

The quick answer to "What about companies squeezing out as much profit as they can?" is to invest in those companies.

It's frustrating, but who is to blame? The US had a 40+ year run after WWII of manufacturing domination because so much of the rest of the industrialized world got blown up in the war. They eventually got back into gear and started making things. Then technology started making things. Then the Third World started making things. I'd like to complain about FDX tightening its budget, but hell, how can I? I'm doing the same with mine.

 

[vantexan]

What I mean is that companies like FedEx are paying out as much as they can in dividends. In FedEx's case they paid out over 150 million dollars in Fiscal Year 2011. The last quarter of that year they paid 13 cents a share. In order for that to amount to much you'd have to own alot of shares. So the mutual funds buy the stock to get the dividend. Alot of it. They are the driving force behind the stock price. The demand keeps the price high. Who benefits? The corporate exec's who own alot of the stock. If I were going to sell 10,000 of my personal shares on the market, would I want the price to be $30 a share, or $100? So I'll do whatever it takes within the law to maximize my company's profit and pay out as much as I can in dividends to attract buyers. And taking away from my employees is an easy way to bolster profits. Sending good jobs overseas to be done by cheap labor is a good way to increase profit. Bottom line for corporate exec's is that the real wealth isn't in their salaries, it's in the stock that they own. Everything we do on the job is to maximize profit to help them make more money with a higher stock price. That's it in a nutshell.

 

[brett636]

What I mean is that companies like FedEx are paying out as much as they can in dividends. In FedEx's case they paid out over 150 million dollars in Fiscal Year 2011. The last quarter of that year they paid 13 cents a share. In order for that to amount to much you'd have to own alot of shares. So the mutual funds buy the stock to get the dividend. Alot of it. They are the driving force behind the stock price. The demand keeps the price high. Who benefits? The corporate exec's who own alot of the stock. If I were going to sell 10,000 of my personal shares on the market, would I want the price to be $30 a share, or $100? So I'll do whatever it takes within the law to maximize my company's profit and pay out as much as I can in dividends to attract buyers. And taking away from my employees is an easy way to bolster profits. Sending good jobs overseas to be done by cheap labor is a good way to increase profit. Bottom line for corporate exec's is that the real wealth isn't in their salaries, it's in the stock that they own. Everything we do on the job is to maximize profit to help them make more money with a higher stock price. That's it in a nutshell.

I hate to break the bad news to you, but profit is the only reason businesses exist in the first place. Not just profits, but maximum profits. Nobody starts a business so that you or I can have a job. We have a job because our companies need work completed in order to make a profit. Just like I don't go to work because I love driving their trucks, I go into work so that I can receive a paycheck. When you boil it down we are all in it for the money otherwise we would not be doing it.

 

[vantexan]

I hate to break the bad news to you, but profit is the only reason businesses exist in the first place. Not just profits, but maximum profits. Nobody starts a business so that you or I can have a job. We have a job because our companies need work completed in order to make a profit. Just like I don't go to work because I love driving their trucks, I go into work so that I can receive a paycheck. When you boil it down we are all in it for the money otherwise we would not be doing it.

Ah, the arrogance of youth. When you learn something you think it's the first time anyone ever realized that one. Sorry buddy, knew that when you were, what was it, yeah, one. This is pointless, you refuse to see that what is happening now isn't the same old game. Maybe someday you'll understand.

 

[brett636]

I hate to break the bad news to you, but profit is the only reason businesses exist in the first place. Not just profits, but maximum profits. Nobody starts a business so that you or I can have a job. We have a job because our companies need work completed in order to make a profit. Just like I don't go to work because I love driving their trucks, I go into work so that I can receive a paycheck. When you boil it down we are all in it for the money otherwise we would not be doing it.

Ah, the arrogance of youth. When you learn something you think it's the first time anyone ever realized that one. Sorry buddy, knew that when you were, what was it, yeah, one. This is pointless, you refuse to see that what is happening now isn't the same old game. Maybe someday you'll understand.[/QUOTE]

I realize my logic is indisputable which is why you have chosen to ignore it. The fact remains many businesses, corporations, and wealthy individuals do a lot of good charity in this world, but without the profit motive funding said charity it would simply not be possible.

 

[vantexan]

I realize my logic is indisputable which is why you have chosen to ignore it. The fact remains many businesses, corporations, and wealthy individuals do a lot of good charity in this world, but without the profit motive funding said charity it would simply not be possible.

Great, let's screw one group and throw a bit of money at another group to assuage our guilt. And pardon my cynicism, but everything FedEx does in the public eye is calculated to benefit the bottom line.

 

[vantexan]

I'm all for the profit motive, and rewarding those who take a risk and create jobs. But where's it written that a CEO should live like a Saudi prince? Take care of those who work hard for you and you'll have plenty to live on. Frankly if our CEO made $20,000,000 a year, had 100 beautiful homes in the world's most posh neighborhoods, owned the world's best personal jet and biggest, fanciest yacht, I'd say more power to him as long as he paid me decently. Not expecting alot, just get me to top of range in a reasonable time and once there keep me even with inflation.Brett, you worked as a PTer at lower pay. Why did you stick with it? Because there was a future payoff for your efforts. If UPS said when you go to FT we'll give you a 65 cent raise, about the same next year as long as the economy is ok, maybe no raise if it isn't, your healthcare cost will go up every year regardless, and oh, we're terminating the current pension plan and replacing it with one that'll add up to maybe 35% of the old plan if you work into your late 60's. You don't have to think about the what if, but seriously, what if you did. What if circumstances required you to stay and deal with it. Would you gladly throw yourself and your future on your figurative sword for the good of your company? You had certain dreams you would of liked to pursue, but now you'll just have to be satisfied knowing your sacrifice will enable others to reach their goals. So what about it Brett, care to walk a mile in my shoes? I think I know how you'll answer...

 

[LTFedExer]

I'd say more power to him as long as he paid me decently.

BULL........Decent pay is a matter of perception. I manage just fine on my pay. So, to me it is decent pay. You struggle and it's not decent pay. And no matter how much FedEx paid you, you would still want more.

 

[brett636]

I'm all for the profit motive, and rewarding those who take a risk and create jobs. But where's it written that a CEO should live like a Saudi prince? Take care of those who work hard for you and you'll have plenty to live on. Frankly if our CEO made $20,000,000 a year, had 100 beautiful homes in the world's most posh neighborhoods, owned the world's best personal jet and biggest, fanciest yacht, I'd say more power to him as long as he paid me decently. Not expecting alot, just get me to top of range in a reasonable time and once there keep me even with inflation.Brett, you worked as a PTer at lower pay. Why did you stick with it? Because there was a future payoff for your efforts. If UPS said when you go to FT we'll give you a 65 cent raise, about the same next year as long as the economy is ok, maybe no raise if it isn't, your healthcare cost will go up every year regardless, and oh, we're terminating the current pension plan and replacing it with one that'll add up to maybe 35% of the old plan if you work into your late 60's. You don't have to think about the what if, but seriously, what if you did. What if circumstances required you to stay and deal with it. Would you gladly throw yourself and your future on your figurative sword for the good of your company? You had certain dreams you would of liked to pursue, but now you'll just have to be satisfied knowing your sacrifice will enable others to reach their goals. So what about it Brett, care to walk a mile in my shoes? I think I know how you'll answer...

CEOs are worth whatever the free market is willing to pay them. It's something akin to sports stars as they are paid huge sums of money because they are in a small group of people in the world with those skills. CEOs have a different skill set which affords them the jobs they hold. I could care less what they are paid so long as they make sound decisions steering the ship they have control of keeping me employed. Besides, if you did the math you would realize that most CEOs get paid a small sum when compared to the wealth of the company as a whole. I remember figuring that if Walmart paid its CEO nothing and spread his current salary among all current employees it wouldn't amout to a gallon of gas per employee per week. It's not what the CEO is paid so much as its how much the company grows under his or her control.

If I found myself in your shoes I would quit and go elsewhere if I believed I was worth more then I was paid. FedEx isn't the only game in town, and you have already admitted to turning down an opportunity to make more. I have always considered saving for retirement to be my responsibility and nobody else's. By the time I learned about the pension being canceled I would have positioned myself so that its impact was minimal if not negligible. Your retirment is your responsibility PERIOD.

 

[brett636]

I'd say more power to him as long as he paid me decently.

BULL........Decent pay is a matter of perception. I manage just fine on my pay. So, to me it is decent pay. You struggle and it's not decent pay. And no matter how much FedEx paid you, you would still want more.

Agreed. Even at UPS I have found fulltime employees complaining about the pay. Some people just cannot be pleased.