FIREWORKS in the Southwest over Andy Ms "carve-out!"

[LagunaBrown]

Local 89 retirees pay the amount that was IMPOSED on them in the last contract by Hoffa and hall.
That local voted in impressive and historic numbers to try and effectuate a different result, only to have the rug pulled out from under them and autonomy thrown to the wayside.
Fred Z played no role in the failing Central States Pension, but the same can't be said about Hoffa and hall.

As for Local 804, I'm pretty sure that both their H&W and pension funds strengthened under Tim S and that Eboard?

Wonder why some locals and regions were permitted to negotiate "carve outs", while rest of us were force fed turd burgers?

Still waiting? Who has better? Show me the numbers!

 

[Bubblehead]

Still waiting? Who has better? Show me the numbers!

I'm still waiting for you to answer why your region was afforded "autonomy", while some were "IMPOSED"????

 

[LagunaBrown]

I'm still waiting for you to answer why your region was afforded "autonomy", while some were "IMPOSED"????

You keep trying to dodge my post. This thread is about the carve out. Fred Z and Tim S bash it yet they have a failing pension and more expensive retiree healthcare. Show me numbers! Are your too embarrassed or naive to post what your Teamsters United leaders have compared to the carveout.

You should post the question on the vote no page or call in local 804 radio and ask them. Ha ha ha!

 

[Bubblehead]

You keep trying to dodge my post. This thread is about the carve out. Fred Z and Tim S bash it yet they have a failing pension and more expensive retiree healthcare. Show me numbers! Are your too embarrassed or naive to post what your Teamsters United leaders have compared to the carveout.

You should post the question on the vote no page or call in local 804 radio and ask them. Ha ha ha!

I'm still waiting for you to answer why your region was afforded "autonomy", while another region had a healthcare system IMPOSED on them???

 

[BigUnionGuy]

Local 89 retirees pay the amount that was IMPOSED on them in the last contract by Hoffa and hall.

How is that any different, than what others in the Central Region pay ?

That local voted in impressive and historic numbers to try and effectuate a different result, only to have the rug pulled out from under them and autonomy thrown to the wayside.

They were voting on more, than retiree insurance.


The first vote was less than 50% of the members. It dropped by (2000 ?) members

the second time. I still maintain, why weren't these issues addressed in previous contracts ??

Fred Z played no role in the failing Central States Pension, but the same can't be said about Hoffa and hall.

To say H & H.... are the only ones culpable for the issue at Central States, is short sighted.

There are too many other factors at play.


Just as a reminder;


FZ.... has been the principle officer of Local 89 since 2000.

He was involved with the "Blue Ribbon commission" in 2001.

He was (most definitely) at the 2002 Central States meeting in Chicago.

And, was a H & H supporter.... for years.



-Bug-


* That is how I see it *

 

[LagunaBrown]

I'm still waiting for you to answer why your region was afforded "autonomy", while another region had a healthcare system IMPOSED on them???

You answer a question with a question. C'mon Pee Wee Herman. Give me the numbers!

Evil and Son of Sam deserted this thread because they won't post the numbers either.

Just tell us the retiree cost for 2017 (that Tim S) negotiated compared to Andy M carve out.

 

[Bubblehead]

You answer a question with a question. C'mon Pee Wee Herman. Give me the numbers!

Evil and Son of Sam deserted this thread because they won't post the numbers either.

Just tell us the retiree cost for 2017 (that Tim S) negotiated compared to Andy M carve out.

I don't know the numbers, and am not really interested in looking them up.
If you, Evil, and Son of Sam want to have a private moment, get a room already Monica.

See, this is a public forum for registered members, so these threads tend to take many twist and turns, if you haven't noticed.

Here's what I'm going to do for you, in hopes of having an adult conversation, in a civil tongue.
For the sake of this particular tangent, I will acquiesce that your "carve out" is vastly superior in benefits, with much lower costs for it's participants.
We will also assume that your pension is fully funded, with many otherwise unheard of bells and whistles in comparison to other pension plans in our union.
It's these assumptions that have lead me to ask these questions.

1. When the National Master barely passed on the first attempt and the Central Region Supplement failed miserably, we were told that H&W was contained in the Master, and consequently could not be addressed in the subsequent regional supplemental proposals. ( Didn't stop them from going back and sweetening the pot in the Master though?)
With this in mind, how is it that the Western Region was able to "carve out" their own plan after a failed supplement?

2. How is it that the Central States Pension plan encountered all of the speed bumps like deregulation of the freight industry and the perils of a volatile stock market that has it at the brink of extinction, while the Western Pension and several others have been able to insulate themselves from these variables and remain fully funded?

 

[LagunaBrown]

I don't know the numbers, and am not really interested in looking them up.
If you, Evil, and Son of Sam want to have a private moment, get a room already Monica.

See, this is a public forum for registered members, so these threads tend to take many twist and turns, if you haven't noticed.

Here's what I'm going to do for you, in hopes of having an adult conversation, in a civil tongue.
For the sake of this particular tangent, I will acquiesce that your "carve out" is vastly superior in benefits, with much lower costs for it's participants.
We will also assume that your pension is fully funded, with many otherwise unheard of bells and whistles in comparison to other pension plans in our union.
It's these assumptions that have lead me to ask these questions.

1. When the National Master barely passed on the first attempt and the Central Region Supplement failed miserably, we were told that H&W was contained in the Master, and consequently could not be addressed in the subsequent regional supplemental proposals. ( Didn't stop them from going back and sweetening the pot in the Master though?)
With this in mind, how is it that the Western Region was able to "carve out" their own plan after a failed supplement?

2. How is it that the Central States Pension plan encountered all of the speed bumps like deregulation of the freight industry and the perils of a volatile stock market that has it at the brink of extinction, while the Western Pension and several others have been able to insulate themselves from these variables and remain fully funded?

Just get the number.... Geez.

 

[10 Pt]

The first vote was less than 50% of the members. It dropped by (2000 ?) members
the second time.
-Bug-
* That is how I see it *

How many UPS members do they have?
You say LESS than 50%? It sure doesn't look like it.
Help us out.

 

[Bubblehead]

View attachment 115600

How many UPS members do they have?
You say LESS than 50%? It sure doesn't look like it.
Help us out.

I believe Local 89 had better than 9,000 UPSer's at the time of the vote count, mostly part time Worldport employees.

The first vote was less than 50% of the members. It dropped by (2000 ?) members the second time.

How do those percentages stack up in comparison to your local and the national average?

Weren't you at least a little bit impressed when considering they were, for the most part, part time employees?

 

[Whatbrownwontdoforyou]

I'm still waiting for you to answer why your region was afforded "autonomy", while some were "IMPOSED"????

I HEARD that Tim and Fred didn't speak up because originally they were ok with the healthcare....they could have went in to the western conference healthcare but the chose not to

 

[LagunaBrown]

Don't Trust Tim S or Fred Z when they talk about the West! They talk crap but negotiated worse. We have better.

West Carveout (retiree)
$150 Single
$300 Spouse/Family​

Tim S (retiree plan)
200/month for an individual,
$300 for member spouse coverage,
$450/month for family​

 

[Bubblehead]

Don't Trust Tim S or Fred Z when they talk about the West! They talk crap but negotiated worse. We have better.

West Carveout (retiree)
$150 Single
$300 Spouse/Family​

Tim S (retiree plan)
200/month for an individual,
$300 for member spouse coverage,
$450/month for family​

1. When the National Master barely passed on the first attempt and the Central Region Supplement failed miserably, we were told that H&W was contained in the Master, and consequently could not be addressed in the subsequent regional supplemental proposals. ( Didn't stop them from going back and sweetening the pot in the Master though?)
With this in mind, how is it that the Western Region was able to "carve out" their own plan after a failed supplement?

2. How is it that the Central States Pension plan encountered all of the speed bumps like deregulation of the freight industry and the perils of a volatile stock market that has it at the brink of extinction, while the Western Pension and several others have been able to insulate themselves from these variables and remain fully funded?

 

[LagunaBrown]

1. When the National Master barely passed on the first attempt and the Central Region Supplement failed miserably, we were told that H&W was contained in the Master, and consequently could not be addressed in the subsequent regional supplemental proposals. ( Didn't stop them from going back and sweetening the pot in the Master though?)
With this in mind, how is it that the Western Region was able to "carve out" their own plan after a failed supplement?


2. How is it that the Central States Pension plan encountered all of the speed bumps like deregulation of the freight industry and the perils of a volatile stock market that has it at the brink of extinction, while the Western Pension and several others have been able to insulate themselves from these variables and remain fully funded?

1. When the company had the chance to get out of the Health Care plan they took it. Many of the benefits here is the West would be lost if we went into Teamcare. Our Western regional leaders spoke up and requested an MOU in the Master to allow us a chance to create our own plan and Ken H stood by the request. (As stated in an earlier post Fred Z and Tim S stayed quiet and finalized the healthcare for their members. The vote NO campaign never told you that did they). If the plan could not be created in time we would be in Teamcare so Andy M was successful in keeping our peer 80 and many other benefits. While not identical to the company plan it is close.

2. I can't answer that question. You would have to ask the West Trustees of the plan. They kept it maintained by good management. Just as every local has its own sovereignty so does each pension plan. I know NOT having 25 and out helped since our retiree earnings are off of accrual and equations rather that set numbers.

 

[LagunaBrown]

I'm still waiting for you to answer why your region was afforded "autonomy", while another region had a healthcare system IMPOSED on them???

It was imposed BECAUSE of Fred Z and Tim S remained silent while the West spoke up and got an MOU.

"In the End, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends. Martin Luther King, Jr.

 

[Bubblehead]

1. When the company had the chance to get out of the Health Care plan they took it. Many of the benefits here is the West would be lost if we went into Teamcare. Our Western regional leaders spoke up and requested an MOU in the Master to allow us a chance to create our own plan and Ken H stood by the request.

The Company was given a chance to get out of their healthcare plan, because the opportunity was given to them by Hoffa and Ken H.
In doing so, many of us did lose benefits when we went into TeamCare.
In the Central Region, the biggest region by far, we weren't afforded any MOU, rather were told that H&W was a done deal when the Master passed and could not be addressed in any of the failed supplements subsequent offers.
I believe it is because Hoffa and Hall were only interested in infusing added contributions to the Central States H&W plan (C6).

As stated in an earlier post Fred Z and Tim S stayed quiet and finalized the healthcare for their members. The vote NO campaign never told you that did they.

Not sure where you get this???
First of all, Tim S. President of Local 804 at the time, presided over a contract that has no ties to the National Master, never has.
They had and continue to have their own H&W and pension plans, plans that improved dramatically under his watch.
Secondly, Fred Z absolutely did not sit silently in regards to the proposed H&W changes.
In fact he was the first national leader to pen a letter in opposition less than a week after the the "2 man meeting", where everybody (including your beloved Andy M) sat in silent disbelief of a whirlwind presentation,fill with radical changes.

If the plan could not be created in time we would be in Teamcare so Andy M was successful in keeping our peer 80 and many other benefits. While not identical to the company plan it is close.

I'm glad your region was successful in side stepping TeamCare, but realize that opportunity was never going to be extended to the Central Region, because the IBT wanted that money for their fund.
With this in mind, you better watch your back in 2018.

2. I can't answer that question. You would have to ask the West Trustees of the plan. They kept it maintained by good management. Just as every local has its own sovereignty so does each pension plan. I know NOT having 25 and out helped since our retiree earnings are off of accrual and equations rather that set numbers.

In other words, mismanagement and politics.
It's convenient to blame the decisions of a dead man, who was replaced by a new President that has remained incumbent for nearly 20 years since, who failed to demonstrate the vision and political self sacrifice to attempt to right the ship.
During that time frame, he instead watched membership shrink, and allowed the biggest contributors to withdraw.

If the Western Pension Fund managed to weather the storms blamed for the demise of Central States, then what else are we to believe?

 

[wide load]

I HEARD that Tim and Fred didn't speak up because originally they were ok with the healthcare....they could have went in to the western conference healthcare but the chose not to

Fred loved everything before he wasn't asked to be a VP

 

[LagunaBrown]

The Company was given a chance to get out of their healthcare plan, because the opportunity was given to them by Hoffa and Ken H.
In doing so, many of us did lose benefits when we went into TeamCare.
In the Central Region, the biggest region by far, we weren't afforded any MOU, rather were told that H&W was a done deal when the Master passed and could not be addressed in any of the failed supplements subsequent offers.
I believe it is because Hoffa and hall were only interested in infusing added contributions to the Central States H&W plan (C6).

Not sure where you get this???
First of all, Tim S. President of Local 804 at the time, presided over a contract that has no ties to the National Master, never has.
They had and continue to have their own H&W and pension plans, plans that improved dramatically under his watch.
Secondly, Fred Z absolutely did not sit silently in regards to the proposed H&W changes.
In fact he was the first national leader to pen a letter in opposition less than a week after the the "2 man meeting", where everybody (including your beloved Andy M) sat in silent disbelief of a whirlwind presentation,fill with radical changes.

I'm glad your region was successful in side stepping TeamCare, but realize that opportunity was never going to be extended to the Central Region, because the IBT wanted that money for their fund.
With this in mind, you better watch your back in 2018.

In other words, mismanagement and politics.
It's convenient to blame the decisions of a dead man, who was replaced by a new President that has remained incumbent for nearly 20 years since, who failed to demonstrate the vision and political self sacrifice to attempt to right the ship.
During that time frame, he instead watched membership shrink, and allowed the biggest contributors to withdraw.

If the Western Pension Fund managed to weather the storms blamed for the demise of Central States, then what else are we to believe?

Teamsters United told you so and you believed it. If you were smart you would have read both sides. Andy M warned Fred Z and here is the proof but Fred Z blew his pipe and you all followed right into Teamcare .... Take some responsibility! Geez. Fred's so called letter "dismantling" the case shows he was incorrect and that he had blinders on.

 

[Bubblehead]

Teamsters United told you so and you believed it. If you were smart you would have read both sides. Andy M warned Fred Z and here is the proof but Fred Z blew his pipe and you all followed right into Teamcare .... Take some responsibility! Geez. Fred's so called letter "dismantling" the case shows he was incorrect and that he had blinders on.

OMG!!!
That's your proof???

I actually figured it out long before the TU slate was formed.

That "letter" (fax) was nothing more than a desperate overture, from a collection of Me-ster Hofficers, looking to "carve out" a side deal, before it was too late.

The whole thing was debunked in a real "letter", linked in your link, from Fred Z himself.
Thanks for making it easy....again.

http://www.teamsters89.com/Ted Bunstine Letter 3-2014.pdf

 

[LagunaBrown]

OMG!!!
That's your proof???

I actually figured it out long before the TU slate was formed.

That "letter" (fax) was nothing more than a desperate overture, from a collection of Me-ster Hofficers, looking to "carve out" a side deal, before it was too late.

The whole thing was debunked in a real "letter", linked in your link, from Fred Z himself.
Thanks for making it easy....again.

http://www.teamsters89.com/Ted Bunstine Letter 3-2014.pdf

I made reference to that letter in my last post genius. No wonder your called bubblehead. Fred made promises he could not keep while we got a carve out. If Fred listened to Andy M you could be in our Healthcare plan. Yet it's the IBT's fault. I'm sick of your conspiracy theories.