Is this story more good news from Iraq?

brazenbrown

Well-Known Member
Here are a few more for you too!!

Thanks for sharing!!:thumbup1:

Is the Surge Working?

At the end of the above link is this link by radio talk show host Hugh Hewitt of John friend. Burns, the New York Times's chief correspondent in Iraq. Burns is a superb reporter, probably one of the best war reporters of all time, and his analysis is absolutely fascinating. And if you haven't already, take a look at the reader-supported reporting of Michael Yon and Michael Totten.

P.S. I have not read the entire interview yet.

Turning Point?

Why the surge might not be stopped


And a bonus link I found interesting just for your pleasure!:lol:

Ron Paul: Idea-Driven, Decent, Unworthy


Enjoy Mac!!
 

wkmac

Well-Known Member
Pollack and O'Hanlon were interviewed by Chris Wallace on FoxNews Sunday this morning and from the military side, it all sounded good. Where Pollack and O'Hanlon had worries was on the Iraqi political side and they didn't seem as positive or it least it came across that way to me.

O'Hanlon pretty much said he was backing Hillary whereas Pollack maintained a much more neutral position claiming that Brookings is a non-partisan organization. Just thought I'd throw that in for anyone who felt these 2 were Bush mouthpieces because they were pretty clear in their dislike for GW on a policy level.

Also from the talk seems Hillary is seeking out O'Hanlon for advice on Iraq so her stance concerning the War may really not change much if at all. I personally don't think Hillary is anti-war or even anti-empirical stances (not peep about Bosnia)but what her deal is just being in the right spot at the right time. She may end up as savy if not more so than her husband when it comes to politics.
 

av8torntn

Well-Known Member
Pollack and O'Hanlon were interviewed by Chris Wallace on FoxNews Sunday this morning and from the military side, it all sounded good. Where Pollack and O'Hanlon had worries was on the Iraqi political side and they didn't seem as positive or it least it came across that way to me.



Just to get things straight first people say we were losing the war. People later said our troops were caught in the middle of a cival war that had been going on for thousands of years. Then we had political leaders saying that our troops were terrorizing women and children in Iraq. You could throw in the old illegal war thing and we are like Nazis from the true far out guys. Of course none of this was true.

We can fast forward to today and the new line seems to be that our military is doing OK but the Iraqis are not doing their part. Of course this is not true either but i guess people can just keep throwing things out there and hope someone will see it as fact.
 
W

westsideworma

Guest
Good one! I'm sure CNN, and the rest of the news agencys that have been infected by Liberalism, would simply report that as bad news. The Liberal media just reports things as they want people to see.

While I don't disagree, you can't in all honesty believe that the conservative side NEVER spins things to make a convincing argument for their cause/belief whatever it may be. Not to mention any names ::cough:: fox news ::cough:: :wink:
 

Overpaid Union Thug

Well-Known Member
Nice try. But you are WRONG!. Let's just say I believe in what Fox News says and don't trust most of the others. They are the most honest. But don't take my word for it. I'll just let their tv ratings and the fact that they blow the piss out of their competition stand as proof. Does everyone put a little spin on things from time to time? Yes. Does Fox do it less than the Liberal media? Of course.
 

wkmac

Well-Known Member
It's funny how the opinions of people differ so when it comes to the various news sources. For the most part it seems people pick along the lines of Fox News or CNN but I think that's mostly an appearance thing in that it just seems that way at times. A lot of the programming at CNN and Fox are opinion oriented and driven and that's fine. I know myself in the morning I like Robin Meade at CNN over the Fox bunch because they just don't appeal to me in how they deliver. Other folks, it's completely the other way. And the other CNN channel I view about like I view the Fox morning show. I'd just rather have a more Hard news program and leave off the hi-jinx and other high school pep rally stuff. Robin has her light hearted fun too but there's just more direct news and much less opining for me (never said there was none) which is what I want in a news broadcast.

However, even those broadcasts that I don't watch do offer hard news segments at the top and bottom hours and for the most part that aren't opinion oriented. When it comes to just presenting hard news, IMO there is no real difference between any of the networks. Funny how when some of the folks over at CNN are charged as being liberal are not considered so when they move over to fox and visa versa. Should that mean anything at all or is it something we should ignore and continue with the label trading jabs!

However, there are some who feel all the networks have let us down especially when it comes to the Washington press corp. For me, it harkens back to the days of Watergate when it took 2 nothing reporters at the Washington Post who saw troubling signs and unlike their counterparts in town who were to close and comfortable to rock the boat, they followed the story that in time exposed the country to what was really going on behind the scenes. These voices are now starting to speak out and like Bernstein and Woodward, where will it takes us. Maybe no where and maybe this is just the overblown ramblings of an idiot as some will say and maybe they are right. However, I also remember hearing the same allegations at Bernstein and Woodward back in the early 70's and look what history has told us about that era some 35 years later?

http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/btw/watch.html
 

diesel96

Well-Known Member
Nice try. But you are WRONG!. Let's just say I believe in what Fox News says and don't trust most of the others. They are the most honest. But don't take my word for it. I'll just let their tv ratings and the fact that they blow the piss out of their competition stand as proof. Does everyone put a little spin on things from time to time? Yes. Does Fox do it less than the Liberal media? Of course.


Because a media outlet questions the war in Iraq or the Presidents policies and antics,or a cleaner Earth does that make them liberal or patriotic????

Anyway IMO-You got to give Fox Noise some credit,they know their target audience. They do cater to the white man/woman christian baby boomer generation (e.g. Bill Orielly and the boys) and also capture the attention span of the gullable hardline conservatives that all watch and congregate to their beloved "fair and balanced":lol:cable news station Fox Noise. Fox expertly spews their far right agenda to procreate a nation of infected neo con clones.
Meanwhile,mainstream, liberals,Dems and even middle of the road republican audience do not congregate to just one news organization. Mainstream,liberal,middle of the road audience demonstrates their news gathering from multiple outlets not just trusting one agency all the time.I say mix it up,a little variety will stimulate the brain from getting washed and confused.
BTW..I watch my local news by who has the hottest weather girl that day:tongue_sm.
 

av8torntn

Well-Known Member
Because a media outlet questions the war in Iraq or the Presidents policies and antics,or a cleaner Earth does that make them liberal or patriot.


It would be one thing to question a war or policy but it is quite another thing to make up something that is completely false and report it as news. Most mainstream media outlets take a small amount of fact and report it way out of context and people like you take it and run with it as fact. I think this is a big reason why Fox news is so successful. They give a more balanced side of stories. There do have their opinion programs like Oreilly but he is wrong about the Iraq war also. (When he says the Iraqis are not doing their part) I could go on for a while on this topic because I have lived it. You would be surprised if you ever lived the news and saw it reported on CNN or NBC. I can only call out those two outlets because they are the ones I have personal experience with.
 

Overpaid Union Thug

Well-Known Member
Because a media outlet questions the war in Iraq or the Presidents policies and antics,or a cleaner Earth does that make them liberal or patriotic????

Questioning the war is one thing but to totally ignore the facts, which is that there is plenty of good going on there, and mainly reporting stories that undermine the war is why I, and judging by the ratings I'd say most Americans, lean towards Fox News. It's fine to have opinions about Presidential policies and having a cleaner Earth but when their whole platform is based ONLY on opinions then we have a problem. The whole "Global Warming" thing is another perfect example. There still is no consensual proof among the scientific community that it is caused by man, yet, CNN and company pretend that there is. Some scientists are even saying that there is no Global Warming (man made or natural) at all. It is amazing to me. Fox News isn't perfect but they are much closer to being honest than the others. I think their ratings back that up.
 

diesel96

Well-Known Member
It would be one thing to question a war or policy but it is quite another thing to make up something that is completely false and report it as news. Most mainstream media outlets take a small amount of fact and report it way out of context and people like you take it and run with it as fact. I think this is a big reason why Fox news is so successful. They give a more balanced side of stories. There do have their opinion programs like Oreilly but he is wrong about the Iraq war also. (When he says the Iraqis are not doing their part) I could go on for a while on this topic because I have lived it. You would be surprised if you ever lived the news and saw it reported on CNN or NBC. I can only call out those two outlets because they are the ones I have personal experience with.

Looks like we agree to disagree on media coverage( I try to watch the news with the least amount of Drug Co. commercials,but thats a whole new can of worms to delve into),but I undoubtly respect the job you performed in the middle east as well as our current soldiers there now. Any American citizen or American media who wills US military failure with any endeavor we take on for the sake of making Mr.Bush look bad,has some serious unpatriotic issues. However I do have a problem with the Executive Branch of this Gov't not working hand in hand with the Legistration Branch,Congress and the majority opinion of the people.
 

tieguy

Banned
However I do have a problem with the Executive Branch of this Gov't not working hand in hand with the Legistration Branch,Congress....

with the liberal idiot democrats running congress into the ground , Bush would probably require full mop gear to do so. :thumbup1:
 

diesel96

Well-Known Member
with the liberal idiot democrats running congress into the ground , Bush would probably require full mop gear to do so. :thumbup1:

The Democrats' maneuvering room is narrower in the Senate, a mere 51-49 advantage that leaves Dems' far short of the 60 votes needed to advance an agenda past Republicans.Then throw in the brillant GW and his veto-ing crayola crayons.
BTW--You forgot to call the "moderate" Democrates names or are you unaware they exist.
 

area43

Well-Known Member
The Democrats' maneuvering room is narrower in the Senate, a mere 51-49 advantage that leaves Dems' far short of the 60 votes needed to advance an agenda past Republicans.Then throw in the brillant GW and his veto-ing crayola crayons.
BTW--You forgot to call the "moderate" Democrates names or are you unaware they exist.

Dude, D I thought you were moving more to the center. Its apparent your still out in left field. Those dems in congress only vote by the polls. No real convictions. Which ever way the wind is blowing. Bill Clinton taught them that. I believe Bush votes on his heart felt convictions not so much on poll numbers as we can tell.
 

diesel96

Well-Known Member
Dude, D I thought you were moving more to the center. Its apparent your still out in left field. Those dems in congress only vote by the polls. No real convictions. Which ever way the wind is blowing. Bill Clinton taught them that. I believe Bush votes on his heart felt convictions not so much on poll numbers as we can tell.


Iraq shows an example of Liberal Dems' and Moderate Dems' butting heads in Congress -- forging Iraq agreement between liberals who want the war to end quickly and moderates are fearful of tying the hands of the Military and the President. Both Clintons are not as liberal as most people think, which might spur controversy amongst the Dem' Party whichever way the wind or polls ( or Bill) is blowing.
 

wkmac

Well-Known Member
I hate to do the unthinkable and actually move us back toward the original purpose of this thread but just ran across this story (linked @ bottom of post) in the NY Times. Seems that Sen. Levin and Sen. Warner who both head the powerful Armed Services Committee are expressing public doubts about the Maliki gov't in Iraq. This comes on the heals of the Pollock/O'Hanlon report which gave positive comments about the US military efforts but who also voiced the same concerns about the Maliki gov't and especially on the numerous interview shows they've been on of late.

Even though I've come to disagree with the "political" side of foreign policy that lead to the Iraq invasion, it is clear that the surge is meeting with success. Ironic that numerous months ago I posted a link to the Rand Corp. study on troop levels needed to be successful basis on analysis of similar efforts from post WW2 Germany and Japan through Afghanistan and Iraq. Here's that link:http://www.rand.org/publications/randreview/issues/summer2003/burden.html

That analysis already suggested that early troop level efforts were way to short and that Rumsfeld plan of "Nationbuilding on the Cheap" was only going to fail. This was also why numerous generals were making comments questioning troop levels under Rumsfeld's policy as they had a good grasp of history and what did and didn't work. Petreus knew this and knew the historical data and I do believe his report next month will overall be a positive one as it pertains to the military effort itself. The military can't control the lack of effort on the part of Maliki and that IMO is clearly on the heads of those leading the political policy efforts. Bush, Cheney, Rice or whoever, they are open game for critism but IMO the military is not in that equation at all. Military doesn't make policy, they only implement as it pertains to their area of operations and influence. IMO, if this does become in the end a failure (that's not decided yet either so don't get excited) then like Vietnam, I do think the blame rest squarely on the Bush adminstration as it also does for LBJ and Nixon in regards to Vietnam. In both cases the military was awesome and never given the chance to win but that's another story too. Maybe Petraus is changing that outcome in our day.

Here are a couple of links to the Rand Corp's website with the first being an overview of Nationbuilding efforts from post WW2 til our current times in the mideast theater. It also defines Nationbuilding in what I think is a pretty good and fair definition so the reader knows the point of referrence going in. They defind it as:

We define nation-building as "the use of armed force in the aftermath of a conflict to underpin an enduring transition to democracy."

Notice the use of the term "aftermath of a conflict". That means after the ending of hostile fighting associated with a type of declared warfare effort. Bush has caught hell for standing on the deck of that aircraft carrier and in essense claiming we had won. If you understand from wonkspeak how certain things are definded, then he really was correct in declaring victory. Besides at the time, the mandate was to remove Saddam from power and that truly was done, there's no denying that at all. But now came the nationbuilding part where the military was used again and that hasn't gone so well. This movie folks is a 2 parter so don't think for a moment your are watching one long movie. That's not the case at all. The first was purely military and now we are watching the political part. This is the same as Germany and Japan where we beat them on the battlefield and then afterwards rebuilt them (nationbuilding) into allies if you will and we still to this day maintain an occupational presence in both countries. If successful in Iraq, I dare say 60 years from now we'll still be there too.


The first article comes from the perspective that US Nationbuilding is not optional but a must from the belief we are the lone superpower in the world.

http://www.rand.org/publications/randreview/issues/summer2003/nation1.html

This 2nd link is to a much larger work on the issue of Nation Building entitled, America's Role in Nationbuilding/From Germany to Iraq. You can purchase the book or they have it at the link in PDF format chapter by chapter. There is also an executive summary of the book posted which pretty much covers it all but what I found interesting was it in some sense predicted the troop surge success even before it ever began.

http://www.rand.org/pubs/monograph_reports/MR1753/

Both links also discuss the pros and cons of miltilateral and bilateral approaches to these kind of situations. From what I read, it seems to support Bush's bilateral invasion of Iraq to some degree but it seems to suggest that once the purely military invasion process is complete and the occupation and actual nationbulding process begins, a multilateral approach should be used as it tends to lend to better results. At least that's the understanding I came away with. I believe a number of democrats including Joe Biden have heavily advocated this post invasion/post Saddam removal from power multilateral approach for some time now. Another element of Biden's approach is to revisit the post WW1 settlement that erased the tribal partitions of this region when this area became a British Protectorate and also became one nation known today as Iraq. Biden feels there is cause to consider reversing what the British did and go back to what the area was under Ottoman rule as it pertians to land boundries. This causes nervousness as it could lead to questioning the Belfour Declaration and subsequent history and policy from it, but it may become a necessary evil in the end to figure out just what is a solution to this mideast region. Biden IMO gets credit for even thinking what in some circles is the unthinkable but someone has to step up and start the discussion no matter how distasteful it may seem.

JMO.


http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/21/w...95b69fc4d&ei=5090&partner=rssuserland&emc=rss
 

av8torntn

Well-Known Member
Well I think that the more successful things become in Iraq the more we will hear the current talking points. The Iraq government is not doing enough. Of course most people know this is not true. Well probably not since most people not long ago thought we were losing the war. It will not be long until we cannot turn on the news and hear politicians and talking heads talking about how little the Iraqi government is doing. This media campaign against our military is getting out of control.



As far as Sen. Biden goes he is really missing the point in Iraq. If you take out the Kurds there is a very very small minority of people that want Iraq to be split up into multiple countries. I am guessing that you know what the Kurds want. I would guess they want their own country so they can be left alone. I know this may be putting it in the most basic terms, but from the people that I got to talk to and it was very few Kurds this is what it seemed to come down to. The problem comes when you add the Kurds from Turkey and Iran in the mix and Sen. Biden does not take this into account in any realistic manner. All he can do is talk and of course when you think about what he is really saying he really has no substance. I suspect you guys on here already know this. There are others on here who think that if you divide up Iraq there will be no more problems. I would caution you on this approach. I think that this is not the problem.

As far as us being successful in Iraq will keep us there 60 years I do not know. I am sure you know that we will leave if they ask us. We may be there 60 years or longer. We may be there 10 years or less. We do lots of things for our allies and it would be valuable to have a strong one in the middle east even if we have to nation build one.
 

area43

Well-Known Member
Well I think that the more successful things become in Iraq the more we will hear the current talking points. The Iraq government is not doing enough. Of course most people know this is not true. Well probably not since most people not long ago thought we were losing the war. It will not be long until we cannot turn on the news and hear politicians and talking heads talking about how little the Iraqi government is doing. This media campaign against our military is getting out of control.



As far as Sen. Biden goes he is really missing the point in Iraq. If you take out the Kurds there is a very very small minority of people that want Iraq to be split up into multiple countries. I am guessing that you know what the Kurds want. I would guess they want their own country so they can be left alone. I know this may be putting it in the most basic terms, but from the people that I got to talk to and it was very few Kurds this is what it seemed to come down to. The problem comes when you add the Kurds from Turkey and Iran in the mix and Sen. Biden does not take this into account in any realistic manner. All he can do is talk and of course when you think about what he is really saying he really has no substance. I suspect you guys on here already know this. There are others on here who think that if you divide up Iraq there will be no more problems. I would caution you on this approach. I think that this is not the problem.

As far as us being successful in Iraq will keep us there 60 years I do not know. I am sure you know that we will leave if they ask us. We may be there 60 years or longer. We may be there 10 years or less. We do lots of things for our allies and it would be valuable to have a strong one in the middle east even if we have to nation build one.

I agree, what Iraq needs most is a Gandhi. Martin Luther King or a George Washington. Someone that is a strong leader that can galvanize the population that is so divided.

Let me go back to the Romans and the way they handle terrorism in their day. Or let me just put it another way. Lets say the Romans were us. Present day. History, to forget the past is to repeat it. Ok, the Romans when hit with terrorism and not knowing who did it would go after a segment of that civilian population where that person or persons might be hiding and wipe them out completely. Sounds harsh, yes. Thats war folks. War is to political now days. The Romans knew if they tried to find these guys by other means, lets say politcally correct means by todays standards they would have a long drawn out(years) struggle costing many men and resources in eractacating the problem. We do not have the political stomach no more for war. Perfect example dropping of 2 "A" bombs on Japanense civilian cities to end the war. If it were today I believe we would spend another 400,000 American soldiers lives in our attempt to win the war. Just think, what would Al Gore have to say, "What are you nuts!!!!!! Atomic Bomb, No Way, what about global warming".
 
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