Local 89 mailing to 9000 members

[Bubblehead]

Not a chance in hell this will ever happen, short of a strike or lockout.
Spite doesn't change logistics or the ENORMOUS investment UPS has in Worldport.
Fred Z has a huge bargaining chip and is playing it to the fullest.
Good for him, and so far, good for me.
The pot has been sweetened as a result of our first NO VOTE in the Central Region.
I'll be voting no again.

How's that working out for you now? I'm not saying I've known about this all along but I've been posting this scenario since at least June. Just saying

It's working out fine.
Sent my NO VOTE in days ago.
Nothing has changed.
Worldport in Louisville is not and will not be downsized as a result of this contract.
We aren't going on strike.
We aren't going to be locked out.
When this is all settled, it will be business as usual.
UPS will continue to make record profits and its employees will reap the benefits of the members who had the heart and fortitude to stand up and VOTE NO.
This is undeniable even if this round of voting yields a ratified contract.
Your welcome.
​

 

[oldupsman]

You are aware they diverted about a third of PHL's work to Louisville to better utilize Worldport. They eliminated the day-shift behind this. PHL has the capacity, and then some. In fact, they are reinstating the day shift-rumor has it in part because of the problems in Louisville.

Yes, I'm aware of that. So bringing back that third would put PHL back to where it was before. I was told they're reinstating the day shift
simply because volume is up. I asked an old friend up the food chain about moving more work out of Louisville. He just chuckled and said
"Don't believe what you read on Brown Cafe. Nothing is changing in Louisville." Follows this board quite closely. Known the guy over 25 years, always pretty right on.
But hey, who knows. But to me the idea of taking work out of Louisville is preposterous.

 

[Dracula]

Not a chance in hell this will ever happen, short of a strike or lockout.
Spite doesn't change logistics or the ENORMOUS investment UPS has in Worldport.
Fred Z has a huge bargaining chip and is playing it to the fullest.
Good for him, and so far, good for me.
The pot has been sweetened as a result of our first NO VOTE in the Central Region.
I'll be voting no again.

As well as I did. What hurts is those of us in the Central Region, who have been under Central States healthcare for decades now, will have all of the newer Teamsters come into Teamcare with superior benefits. As it was explained to us by Teamcare executives, they needed to get those newer workers into Teamcare first, and then, in the next contract, they will work to get our benefits to the same level as the incoming people.

Do they really think that will work? Does two-tiered wages mean anything to these people? At best, the better benefits enjoyed by the newcomers will be hammered to the level we have always had. At worst, we will all get hammered. The worst case sounds most likely.

I can actually understand why Teamcare would want all of the extra members into the plan. And indeed, some of our benefits have improved. But having a decent plan for the senior members, and a better plan for newer members, under the same plan is just wrong. It is not the 'union' way.

Oh yeah, Article 17 remains the same, even with 'cardinal offenses' into the language. We've already had that, and what good has it done us?

 

[Dracula]

17i has been addressed,(serious offenses has been changed to cardinal) of course TDU doesn't mention that. New 9.5/retaliation and harassment language is in the National. But you're not voting on the National. That's over.

Changing the language to cardinal offense means nothing--NOTHING--to UPS and us. They will still fire us whenever they want for whatever they want. And guess what? They will claim it is a 'cardinal' offense.

Big change.

 

[Dracula]

The original intent of 17i was for the unnamed offenses (eg. sex on the route stuff) that still gets covered by "cardinal" only now forces UPS to stop the blanket use of "other serious..." beyond the original intent. The panel system is only as good as the Director, chairmen and panel members. The new Director hopefully will be more responsive to issues you've enumerated. The problem with the return to work, no back pay award is the member gets that choice, not the local (at least in our local). Invariably no one takes the chance. Again the new Director doesn't care for this solution and has suggested locals urge members to continue fighting. A few favorable back pay awards will convince locals this is a better solution. Time will tell, but the panel system is not going away, unless you prefer mega-locals with unlimited funds for arbitration.

The problem with the 'return to work, no back pay' award, is it is clearly demonstrated that on the panel level, you will lose your job reaching for your back pay, even when your case is solid. So what choice will you take? Your job, no back pay, or extremely high risk that you might likely lose your job, AND your back pay?

Most smart members will get an insurance policy to cover your time off, and take the 'return to work, no back pay', and curse the panel system, and the Teamsters who populate it. Any union panel member who votes against a union member in any case deserves to lose his job and all Teamster benefits.

How many UPS panel members vote against UPS's case? Let me know when you find one of those votes.

 

[Dracula]

The panel system isn't ideal, but it's still leaps and bounds better than anything a non-union employee will ever get. The primary reason it takes so long to have a case heard at panel is how the company/labor manager will string the case out to deliberately keep the member out of work until the next monthly panel; typically, you can only get a case docketed 10 days before the panel is slated to have a session. This works in the company's favor by giving them time to compile a better case and by making the affected member grow desperate enough to potentially be willing to sign a last-and-final agreement or trip up when being questioned at panel. Quite frankly (and this goes doubly so if you're FT), if you can't afford to be out of work for the month to month and a half it might take to get to panel, then you're doing something wrong with your finances.


As far as back pay goes, it honestly depends on how bad the company ****ed up. Very rarely is a labor manager (in my experience, our area LM is a hardass) going to agree to back pay without the imminent threat of taking a case to panel that he's all-but-guaranteed to lose. If the member is at fault, but not quite at fault to the level wherein (in the arbitrator's view) they deserve to lose their job, they won't receive anything. If it's a case of the division manager having an ax to grind and that's clear, then they'll probably be made whole. However, as Inthegame says above, almost no one will take that chance if they're offered their job back (with the exception of a BS last and final agreement, which I've been seeing offered more and more lately..) at the center/local level meeting.

Yes, it's better than what a non-union person might get, but we're not non-union, are we?

We should expect better.

Again, any union panel member who votes against a Teamster's case doesn't deserve to be on said panel.

 

[Dracula]

Honestly I would think UPS would do a Complete lockout and only RUN air, the most profitable thing, instead of ground. Knowing that no other shipper can pick up even the ground volume, and also force customers to ship Air... Giving UPS time to restructure...

So let me see if I have this right...UPS will shut down their ground business--COMPLETELY--and think FEDEX green wouldn't grab as much ground as it can, and FORCE?? customers to use UPS air...while it restructures?

Have you re-read that yet?

So in all of UPS's talk and efforts over the years to combat FEDEX's advances in our business, you really think they will shut down the ground business because Louisville hates the Central region supplement? The business we lost in the '97 strike would be a grain of sand on the beach compared to what would happen if the ground business shut down. Do you really think the Masters of Wall Street would let UPS turn away all of that revenue?

Come on, man.

 

[chuchu]

Central Supplement might get shot down even worse on the 2nd attempt.

It's interesting to watch the postings about "we're not voting on the healthcare and NMA, it's over...nothings changing"...etc and to watch it change before your very eyes.

 

[ezmoney5150]

It's working out fine.
Sent my NO VOTE in days ago.
Nothing has changed.
Worldport in Louisville is not and will not be downsized as a result of this contract.
We aren't going on strike.
We aren't going to be locked out.
When this is all settled, it will be business as usual.
UPS will continue to make record profits and its employees will reap the benefits of the members who had the heart and fortitude to stand up and VOTE NO.
This is undeniable even if this round of voting yields a ratified contract.
Your welcome.
​

Just out of curiosity. Where is the threshold where you will vote yes? What pay rate is good to you? Or does this never end?

 

[ezmoney5150]

So let me see if I have this right...UPS will shut down their ground business--COMPLETELY--and think FEDEX green wouldn't grab as much ground as it can, and FORCE?? customers to use UPS air...while it restructures?

Have you re-read that yet?

So in all of UPS's talk and efforts over the years to combat FEDEX's advances in our business, you really think they will shut down the ground business because Louisville hates the Central region supplement? The business we lost in the '97 strike would be a grain of sand on the beach compared to what would happen if the ground business shut down. Do you really think the Masters of Wall Street would let UPS turn away all of that revenue?

Come on, man.

I think it will be a lot more of a downsized operation. No more retail pickup and delivery. I think it would be more common carrier. 25 pkgs from one business to another. There isn't much profit in shipping a pkg to Grandma's house. But there is in common carrier.

Just lay off 1/4 to 1/3 of your workforce. Concentrate on just common carrier. less drivers moving more profit. What a concept.

 

[chuchu]

X

Just out of curiosity. Where is the threshold where you will vote yes? What pay rate is good to you? Or does this never end?

Where did pay come into this equation? We're not upset about the pay....just the other language issues that have been exposed over and over again. The healthcare issue isn't a done deal and the enhancements are just bait for unsuspecting "fish". When does all the explaining END about these issues? That's the real mind twister. Vote yes if you want to. I don't care. And as a pkg car driver I will enlighten you to the fact that most shippers want to deal with ONE shipping agent if possible. Their Depts have been downsized and they don't want more variables. If ups gave up resis (which is 45% of our volume they say) we would drop across the board. End of story.

 

[Dracula]

I think it will be a lot more of a downsized operation. No more retail pickup and delivery. I think it would be more common carrier. 25 pkgs from one business to another. There isn't much profit in shipping a pkg to Grandma's house. But there is in common carrier.

Just lay off 1/4 to 1/3 of your workforce. Concentrate on just common carrier. less drivers moving more profit. What a concept.

Sure. And give up all of that business to Fed-Ex.

In other words, everything UPS has ever done is a lie.

And you're thinking they will do this when? First of the year, spring, summer? Make sure you post when you hear it's all happening.

 

[Bubblehead]

Just out of curiosity. Where is the threshold where you will vote yes? What pay rate is good to you? Or does this never end?

I will vote yes when there is a fair an equitable contract offer, free of concessions.
For me, the shortcomings of the past and present offer is not my hourly rate, rather loose language in regards to my healthcare as well as several disciplinary articles, progression give backs, and lack of protection of full time work performed by part-timers.

I also continue to be appalled with the blatant disregard to the plight of the part time employees.
​If only they would vote, they could change it all.

 

[ezmoney5150]

I think it will be a lot more of a downsized operation. No more retail pickup and delivery. I think it would be more common carrier. 25 pkgs from one business to another. There isn't much profit in shipping a pkg to Grandma's house. But there is in common carrier.

Just lay off 1/4 to 1/3 of your workforce. Concentrate on just common carrier. less drivers moving more profit. What a concept.

Sure. And give up all of that business to Fed-Ex.

In other words, everything UPS has ever done is a lie.

And you're thinking they will do this when? First of the year, spring, summer? Make sure you post when you hear it's all happening.

There ate a lot of things UPS does that aren't as profitable but do it for public relations. If you yahoos vote no and we go on strike PR is out the door. Change the business plan and rebuild with just profitable packages. That's what I'd do.

 

[ezmoney5150]

Just out of curiosity. Where is the threshold where you will vote yes? What pay rate is good to you? Or does this never end?

I will vote yes when there is a fair an equitable contract offer, free of concessions.
For me, the shortcomings of the past and present offer is not my hourly rate, rather loose language in regards to my healthcare as well as several disciplinary articles, progression give backs, and lack of protection of full time work performed by part-timers.

I also continue to be appalled with the blatant disregard to the plight of the part time employees.
​If only they would vote, they could change it all.

I think you answered your own question. If only they voted.

There will always be language that you won't like. Its not a negotiation if we get everything we want and ups gets nothing.

So what's equitable?

 

[Bubblehead]

I think you answered your own question. If only they voted. There will always be language that you won't like. Its not a negotiation if we get everything we want and ups gets nothing. So what's equitable?

Equitable is free of concessions in this instance, in light of the record profits this company has realized quarter after quarter and year after year.
We don't work for Chrysler or Hostess.
There was certainly language in the previous contract that I didn't like as well.
I simply see absolutely NO reason to add to it with additional bad language on the guise that "we are just keeping up with the Jones's".
The greed that is running rampid in corporate America has no place in our union or our collective bargaining agreement.

 

[Dracula]

There ate a lot of things UPS does that aren't as profitable but do it for public relations. If you yahoos vote no and we go on strike PR is out the door. Change the business plan and rebuild with just profitable packages. That's what I'd do.

Strike? You're kidding, right? You sound like you don't know that much about Hoffa, but I will guarantee you that they will locate his father before we ever go on strike with Junior as our President.

NOT HAPPENING.

 

[iowa boy]

Strike? You're kidding, right? You sound like you don't know that much about Hoffa, but I will guarantee you that they will locate his father before we ever go on strike with Junior as our President.

NOT HAPPENING.

Hell, as far as Jimmy is concerned, we could work under these 30 day extensions for the next 5 years rather than go on strike.

 

[IVE GOTTA PACKAGE 4U]

Hell, as far as Jimmy is concerned, we could work under these 30 day extensions for the next 5 years rather than go on strike.

Maybe jr can find us a good contract. After he finds his old man! or join him whatever....apple doesnt fall too far from the tree.......or from the cement mixer!

 

[chuchu]

There ate a lot of things UPS does that aren't as profitable but do it for public relations. If you yahoos vote no and we go on strike PR is out the door. Change the business plan and rebuild with just profitable packages. That's what I'd do.

So now we're "yahoos"? I guess that's better than "spineless". It's a lot easier to go with the flow....but wait... the "flow" is voting NO!

As a steward, I'm tired of our people getting the shaft by the Hoffa directed BAs, thrown under the bus and our info snitched to the labor mgr ahead of grievances. We need more people willing to draw a line in the sand and stand by principal in a company that eats it's own young. I applaud Fred and the local for looking out for the people who break their backs unloading all those feeders and P12s. Say what you want to but if our predecessors had the defeatist attitudes I'm seeing on BC we'd be still making $16-18 per hr and on HMOs.

PS/ If you remember, the NMA passed so putting that in perspective, the majority will NOT pass a strike vote...especially when many of the NO voters wouldn't vote to strike. So let's forget about that non-issue and continue to stare down the IBT leaders and get the thing fixed. It gets old babysitting rich adults.