New Orleans

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over9five

Guest
I've read all susies posts, and the only thing that comes across is that she is an angry Bush hater. She is simply using an unplannable natural disaster to spew her hatred against President Bush.
She makes me ill.
 
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dannyboy

Guest
ok

I thought I posted what you did when I stated "Could it be that when they did decide to leave, there was no way out, at any price?"

Maybe if they would have left earlier they would not have been stranded. A storm in which planes cant fly is coming and they waited until too late, flights got cancelled and could not get out. I kinda thought that is what I posted. Lack of proper planing on their part does what?

I mean why even go there when the chances are that good for what happened. Why?

Then also you have the bunch that went there to thrill seek. Ride out a cat5 and sell the video and story to Katie and Matt. But it ended up not being as easy as many thought.

They pushed it. They got caught with their pants down. How is that our fault.

yeah yeah yeah, I know, things happen that are out of their control.

But so did the flight on 9-11 that ended in a field in Penn. instead of in washington. Did they sit there and cringe?

Sorry, for that many people to just quit and not make the attempt to get out, and it is my fault?

d
 
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susiedriver

Guest
FWIW,

Not a Kerry supporter or fan at all. Wouldn't want you stormfront.org admirers to get the wrong idea.
 
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sendagain6160

Guest
I have a cousin that is on the corp of eng and and lives in La. This past Christmas holidays, while visiting he told us that the corp had been trying for years to get the city of N.O. to do something about the wall around the city, but the city fathers had said that it would cost too much.At the time they talked about the cost being about 20 million.I wander what they think now?
 
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susiedriver

Guest
From another board :
I think this report from Stratfor on the strategic importance of New Orleans should frame the entire discussion. Whatever local officials did, there was an overriding need by the Federal Government to make sure New Orleans could survive. excerpts from

https://web.archive.org/web/2005100...m/news/archive/050903-geopolitics_katrina.php

"...Without this port, the river can't be used. Protecting that port has been, from the time of the Louisiana Purchase, a fundamental national security issue for the United States. ..."

"...The ports of South Louisiana and New Orleans...are as important today as at any point during the history of the republic. On its own merit, the Port of South Louisiana is the largest port in the United States by tonnage and the fifth-largest in the world. It exports more than 52 million tons a year, of which more than half are agricultural products -- corn, soybeans and so on ... nearly 57 million tons, comes in through the port -- including not only crude oil, but chemicals and fertilizers, coal, concrete and so on.

"A simple way to think about the New Orleans port complex is that it is where the bulk commodities of agriculture go out to the world and the bulk commodities of industrialism come in. The commodity chain of the global food industry starts here, as does that of American industrialism. If these facilities are gone, more than the price of goods shifts: The very physical structure of the global economy would have to be reshaped. Consider the impact to the U.S. auto industry if steel doesn't come up the river, or the effect on global food supplies if U.S. corn and soybeans don't get to the markets. ..The focus in the media has been on the oil industry in Louisiana and Mississippi. This is not a trivial question, but in a certain sense, it is dwarfed by the shipping issue. ..."

"...The oil fields, pipelines and ports required a skilled workforce in order to operate. That workforce requires homes. They require stores to buy food and other supplies. Hospitals and doctors. Schools for their children. In other words, in order to operate the facilities critical to the United States, you need a workforce to do it -- and that workforce is gone. Unlike in other disasters, that workforce cannot return to the region because they have no place to live. New Orleans is gone, and the metropolitan area surrounding New Orleans is either gone or so badly damaged that it will not be inhabitable for a long time...

"It is in this sense, then, that it seems almost as if a nuclear weapon went off in New Orleans. The people mostly have fled rather than died, but they are gone. Not all of the facilities are destroyed, but most are. It appears to us that New Orleans and its environs have passed the point of recoverability. The area can recover, to be sure, but only with the commitment of massive resources from outside -- and those resources would always be at risk to another Katrina.

"The displacement of population is the crisis that New Orleans faces. It is also a national crisis, because the largest port in the United States cannot function without a city around it. The physical and business processes of a port cannot occur in a ghost town, and right now, that is what New Orleans is. It is not about the facilities, and it is not about the oil. It is about the loss of a city's population and the paralysis of the largest port in the United States...." jim p


edited to fix broken link

(Message edited by susiedriver on September 04, 2005)
 
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tieguy

Guest
all wonderfull. Hindsight has always been twenty / twenty. The pump and levee system was designed to withstand up to a cat 3. The other fear was that the levees would hold and the bowl would fill up which would have the same effect as what you have now only over a much broader area.

I think this argument about proper funding is useless. The city was built in a bad location. No further money should be spent to rebuild in this spot. Why throw endless billions and risk thousands of lives when no one know if it really will fix the problem until the next cat 5 hits in another thirty years.
 
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tieguy

Guest
"Not a Kerry supporter or fan at all."

can I assume Mr. Kerry is too conservative for your tastes?
 
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susiedriver

Guest
tie,
Read the stratfor report before you you say things like:
I think this argument about proper funding is useless. The city was built in a bad location. No further money should be spent to rebuild in this spot. Why throw endless billions and risk thousands of lives when no one know if it really will fix the problem until the next cat 5 hits in another thirty years.
 
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tieguy

Guest
I don't need to read it.I have now seen what can happen with its present location.Its a crappy place to build regardless. The cost to make that spot hurricane proof will be astronomical. Let those brave enough to return do so at their own risk. Give em a life raft to keep in their attic and find a better place to rebuild.

what would have happened if the levees from the mighty mississippi had burst or overflown? your deaths would have increased 10 fold.
 
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ups_gal_710

Guest
Here is how I look at this.... We have many displaced Teamster brothers & Sisters that need help. This is just a small step but, if everyone would contribute just $10 x the # of UPS employees we could make a small step on helping them recover. Or just to feel that there is hope.
Yes I feel very bad for everyone who didnt have the means to get out. My husband is heading South to help rebuild the power lines. He will not have a place to sleep or running water to shower after working 20hrs. But, I dont hear him complaining because he knows what has to be done. I give much praise for all those workers who are going in to repair the affected area and leaving their own family behind.
 
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susiedriver

Guest
upsgal,
Please thank your husband for me. The utility crews don't get the glory that some others do, but have a job that is vitally important, and extremely dangerous. I hope he returns safely in a relatively short time.

I saw this a short time ago about UPS:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9207445/
 
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tieguy

Guest
Ok. so at this point you have been unable to tell us how you would have prepared for a catogory 5 hurricane. And you can't rebut that regardless of how important this port may be to us that it was located in a :censored2:ty spot.

So you stoop down to the level taking a shot at me instead.

I'll take that as a win.
 
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rushfan

Guest
Why don't we hear more about Mississippi, and Alabama on the news! I've shut off the t.v. I can't stand hearing people pointing the finger of blame at each other.

In my humble opinion...and speaking from experience (I was on our local emergency preparedness board)...The problem rests on all government officials. From City, County, State and Federal levels. If you have ever done work where many governmental agencies have to work together , you will understand.

Here is an example...The city emergency coordinator has to contact the county coordinator. Then the county coordinator needs to contact the state coordinator, which in turn contacts the governor. The governor has to contact various support/rescue departments i.e. National Guard etc. If she needs help than she will contact the appropriate federal agencies which takes TIME!!!!. That is when FEMA gets contacted, and other federal agencies.

You have City officials blaming county officials. County officials blaming state officials, and state blaming Federal government. Eventually blame Bush for the problem-using logic doesn't make sense.

In reality government has out grown itself. One has to go through many channels to get things done.

Now is not the time to blame. It's a freeking disaster. No matter how many emergency drills are preformed, practiced, or simulated, NO ONE CAN BE PREPARED FOR THE ACTUAL EVENT!

Here is your homework for this week...Go to your local city office and investigate what type of emergency plans are in place for major catastrophies. 9 times out of 10 there is some sort of plan. But the problem is when was this plan reviewed or practiced. I bet you 1 out of 10 chances they weren't practiced.

One last thing. It would be smart to have some sort of food and water stash in case of an emergency. Also it would be good to have some sort of firearm with the appropriate ammo to go with it.

Just my 2 cents worth.


(Message edited by rushfan on September 04, 2005)
 
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dannyboy

Guest
"good to have some sort of firearm with the appropriate ammo to go with it."

Boy you sure are not going to be on susie or OK,s Christmas card list.

Susie

Heard on the news that the refineries that they claim in your post to be destroyed will be back on line with two weeks.

How can that be. If something is destroyed, how can it be at full production within two weeks?

I guess the saying is true, trash in, trash out. IF what you are reading is tainted and wrong, no wonder you have the wrong opinion most of the time.

d
 
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susiedriver

Guest
danny,

Don't what two refineries you are talking about. My link (you did read it?) says:
There is clearly good news as information comes in. By all accounts, the Louisiana Offshore Oil Port, which services supertankers in the Gulf, is intact. Port Fourchon, which is the center of extraction operations in the Gulf, has sustained damage but is recoverable. The status of the oil platforms is unclear and it is not known what the underwater systems look like, but on the surface, the damage - though not trivial -- is manageable.

Let's hope for the best. Our people are doing a fantasic job down there. The fact is people died unnecessarily, because help came too late.

Dereliction Of Duty is the official term, I believe.
 
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ok2bclever

Guest
So everyone down there deserved to die and suffer because they were lazy or stupid and are at fault for being down there.

Is that your final simplistic answer danny?

I always prefer facts over emotions, but many don't as it gets in the way of how they view their little world.

For those not capable of following simple links this pretty much sums up why we will still need New Orleans.

A simple way to think about the New Orleans port complex is that it is where the bulk commodities of agriculture go out to the world and the bulk commodities of industrialism come in. The commodity chain of the global food industry starts here, as does that of American industrialism. If these facilities are gone, more than the price of goods shifts: The very physical structure of the global economy would have to be reshaped. Consider the impact to the U.S. auto industry if steel doesn't come up the river, or the effect on global food supplies if U.S. corn and soybeans don't get to the markets.

The problem is that there are no good shipping alternatives. River transport is cheap, and most of the commodities we are discussing have low value-to-weight ratios. The U.S. transport system was built on the assumption that these commodities would travel to and from New Orleans by barge, where they would be loaded on ships or offloaded. Apart from port capacity elsewhere in the United States, there aren't enough trucks or rail cars to handle the long-distance hauling of these enormous quantities -- assuming for the moment that the economics could be managed, which they can't be.

The location may be sucky, but the reality is the end of the mouth of the Mississippi has to remain at least a major industrial complex and that means people must live in the area to run the entire infrastructure that is needed for that to function.

I do agree with tie that the rebuilding has to accommodate more than a hope that the next cat 3 or worse doesn't come anytime soon.
 
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