The Chickens Really Are Coming Home, TOO ROOST!

toonertoo

Most Awesome Dog
Staff member
I do not think I hijacked a thread. I posted what I think. A few agree, a few disagree, and thats the way it is. I dont, or actually cant argue a point as diligently as you or others do. I was always a registered democrat. I dont like the candidates. And I would not be happy with back up such as hannitty or even Juliani but I would take those two over Kerry, Carter, God please help me, or Al Gore. Please, that is just icky to think of. Im not conditioned to believe in anything, other than My God. I just watch and listen, and make my choices, and of these three I have to pick Mccain. I dont think he will win, but I can only pray.
 

wkmac

Well-Known Member
As to the heart of this thread being it's title, I'd like to offer a few articles for reading:

From Fox News:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/2002/12/17/iraq-used-many-suppliers-for-nuke-program/

For some of you anti-Fox types you might read the article before allowing you ignorance to show!
:wink2:

From NY Times:
http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/51/220.html

An independent source:
https://web.archive.org/web/20080730015336/http://www.doublestandards.org/mackay1.html

From The Guardian:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2002/dec/18/iraq.germany

From Counterpunch:
http://www.counterpunch.org/green02242003.html

Another independent source:
http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/02/02/1044122258580.html

From St. Petersburg Times:
http://www.sptimes.com/2003/03/16/Perspective/How_Iraq_built_its_we.shtml

This is only the pinpoint of the tip of the iceberg if one has the courage and guts to look and not blindly follow the cults of personality and the garbage they spew!

Through the 1920's, 1930's, and via Lend Lease of the WW2 years we built an enemy that we fought a cold war with across the globe for nearly 50 years in which we lost American lives not to speak of native lives in many foreign lands. We fought and saved millions from the Nazis only to turn those millions over to the Soviets to be murdered at the hands of an equally if not worse gov't in terms of total killed by the authroity of the State. As bad as Japan was, they pailed in comparison to what would come later under the Chinese communist.

We also expended enourmous sums of taxpayer dollars to fight this "COLD" war and the systematic and loss of our own individual freedom and liberty to an ever growing intrusive and overbearing State all in the name of Defending Freedom.

Now it would seem we built another enemy in which enormous sums of money have and will be spent, lives lost and again followed by the growth of gov't and the individuals loss of freedom and liberty. Couple this that a few weeks ago Bush announced he will give enriched uranium to the Saudi Arabians who were the principled supplier of killers on 9/11 and the homeland of the mastermind behind Al Qaeda.

What folly do we create today that our children and grandchildren must fight in years ahead all in the interest of maintaining an energy monopoly that benefits a private merchantile interest and a gov't drunken and addicted on tax dollars to serve it's own self interests.

Now that Carter has spilt the beans about Israel's nukes, would it be to obvious as to where they got them? Then again, with all the Israeli spies or did just someone open the drawer and then walk away for coffee?

The chief and principled purpose of the gov't via it's powers in the Constitution is to defend the United States or sadly it wasn't called States United as that really was it's real purpose. It would appear if one would only look at history and facts over the last 100 to 150 years but vastly accelerated over the last 80 that the gov't creates our enemies with an expressed purpose of self interest of those that run gov't from a place called K Street!

Rev. Wright has made statements that are "OUT THERE" (no argument from me) but in this case, I have to say he may be right in that the "Chickens are coming home too Roost!"
 

wkmac

Well-Known Member
"Even if it were desirable, America is not strong enough to police the world by military force. If that attempt is made, the blessings of liberty will be replaced by coercion and tyranny at home. Our Christian ideals cannot be exported to other lands by dollars and guns. Persuasion and example are the methods taught by the Carpenter of Nazareth, and if we believe in Christianity we should try to advance our ideals by his methods. We cannot practice might and force abroad and retain freedom at home. We cannot talk world cooperation and practice power politics."

-- Rep. Howard Buffet, Sen. Robert Taft's Campaign Manager, 1952

Howard Buffet, father of Warren Buffet of Berkshire Hathaway fame.
 

UPS Lifer

Well-Known Member
... but their are vietnam veterans out there who question John McCain's fortitude as a pow as far as relinquishing classified military information to the enemy in lieu of some medical treatment. Supposedly he was granted upgraded medical treatment but you have to question at what price? And then in 1992 you have to question why McCain blocked all attempts to access pow/mia documents and intel from vietnam. Was he, and still is he blocking something from being released to the public?

WOW! Sorry, I find this just plain ole trash talk.:biting:

Only in America will we continue to trash our Vietnam Vets & POWs and the horror and hell they went through. John McCain was tortured and shows the visible scares of that torture.

You, on the other hand, are passing out trash on his character based on allegations that cannot be substantiated with one degree of certainty at all.
This is shameful...
:please:

I was part of that era and I have seen the tremendous toll that war took on our combat troops. I will not sit back and let anyone trash talk our military without a show of support for what they have done and continue to do for America!
 

UPS Lifer

Well-Known Member
The biggest shame of this whole election process is the fact that the best candidates for president are not in the final 3 or final 2 probably by tomorrow.

I see the handwriting on the wall... BOH will probably end up President.... but I won't be one of those votes who elect him.

He will have to really, really really prove to me that he is worthy of the job. I will be a very critical observer.

As a retired person who continues to support his family and those less fortunate, I am worried that I will continue to watch my hard earned savings and investments continue to erode under the big "O". I am very worried about his taxation plans and who he will surround himself with (cabinet).

Our biggest challenge in America is getting Congress to accomplish anything worthwhile without posturing or greed attached to it. We need to eliminate the two party system and vote people in on their accomplishments and their merits as well as their ability to solve problems.

I still feel the best person for President is Colin Powell.... It is unfortunate for America that we cannot convince him to run... but I can certainly understand why he does not want to!
 

tieguy

Banned
McCain wealthy backers will spend hundreds of millions of dollars running "Rev. Wright" ads and other such garbage, and then the corporate media will rerun their ads for free, over and over, just like they reran the Swift Boat Liars' smears of John Kerry.

McCain does not impress me as the type. Instead Boring comes to mind as opposed to controversal. The swift boat campaigns were not run by bush. There was also a lot of truth to the swift boat commercials. John Kerry was a terrible officer who did have daddys that put him in for medals his CO refused to submit him for. Part of the problem with Vietnam was you had the rich elite in the officer core who were sent their to enhance their future careers. Kerry was one eagerly gobbling up medals for any and all minor cuts and minor skirmishes.


John McCain is an unpleasant and unappealing turkey of a politician who cannot inspire large numbers of ordinary people to make campaign contributions the way Obama can.

The question someone not in love with Obamas hype might then ask is why Hillary with all her negatives collected much more of the popular vote if Obama really is the energizer you claim he is. Think about it here is Obama good looking with all that natural charm and the wicked witch kicked his ass on the popular vote.

That is Obama's advantage over McCain and the military-corporate-media complex that supports McCain. Obama should use that advantage and let the Wall Street Journal hacks whine all they want about Obama's FAIR advantage over McCain in fund-raising ability. At least it's a change from the increasingly tiresome and increasingy racist hit pieces about the Rev. Wright.

Will racism now be the defense of Reverend Wright? Can you defend Obama without invoking the ultimate cop-out? Obama promises to change washington. Yet he passively sat there for twenty years and listened to reverend wright. Passive leaders do not change DC.

Okay - so lets say 79 billionaires raised $200,000 each. That means that they raised around $18 million. And Obama has taken in $240 million plus. So, that would mean that the billionaires raised less than 8% of his total - and the other 92%+ came from people who are not billionaires - Okay. That's fine with me...50% of his financing came from people who have given less than $200.

Not sure this is really relevant to discussing Obamas qualifications for president.

Any way you slice it - he has well over a MILLION donors. :peaceful:

Out of how many people in the US and world?

If Democrats manage to lose this election, I just might join you in that 3rd party.

Realistically the chances are very good that they will lose. There is still a large part of this country that will not vote a black man into office. There is also a large group that feel that McCain with his experience is a safe bet while Obama brings a lot of risks. McCain is liberal enough that he will attract a lot of crossover votes who do not like Obama for various reasons. Obamas challenge at this point is not to celebrate his campaign hype but to figure out why so many more democrats voted for the wicked witch.
 

tieguy

Banned
Obama is often minimized by his opponents as being green behind the ears but a smart guy who is a great talker. Realistically, is there any other type of experience that is more important for the job of president than learning how to be a great talker and motivater?

Try to focus on this point. Its one Obama will have to answer if the wicked witch conceeds.

What did he do in congress while he has been there? Passed three very minor bills that had more to do with Africa then the US.

Its not experience here that I am concerned about its that he sat in congress as if he was sitting in his church listening to the crazy reverend.

Obamas trying to act like he just came from hibernation to cure washington when he has been in washington all this time doing nothing.
 

diesel96

Well-Known Member
WOW! Sorry, I find this just plain ole trash talk.:biting:

Only in America will we continue to trash our Vietnam Vets & POWs and the horror and hell they went through. John McCain was tortured and shows the visible scares of that torture.


You, on the other hand, are passing out trash on his character based on allegations that cannot be substantiated with one degree of certainty at all.
This is shameful...
:please:

I was part of that era and I have seen the tremendous toll that war took on our combat troops. I will not sit back and let anyone trash talk our military without a show of support for what they have done and continue to do for America!


The trash talk that your refering to is substantiated from other vietnam vets. Or, maybe they are so insignificant that you have forgotten they are part of the combat troops and are heros as well. Just because they are not well known and not a politican running for president, their testimony carries no weight with you as well with the family members of pows and (R)Senators that were stonewalled by our gov't lead by Sen McCain. Watch the video that you so willingly left out with my quote or research other testimony. Their your have testimony from former vets that you are dissmissing, pow family members, and (rep)senators who tried to recover mia's/ pows and pow records.

Furthermore, you will not sit back and let anyone trash talk our military, but you will sit back watched our young people get ravaged, killed and maimed over Gov't polices not pertaining to America's interest, but to Gov't and Corperate interest.

Let's not forget all the John Kerry swift boat bs smear campagins, you should have been up in arms over that 2. That was very desipicable as well.
 

UPS Lifer

Well-Known Member
Diesel,
I don't research trash talk!! I didn't see one comment you made about Kerry, so there was no need for me to mention him. Ohhh! I know the story about him as well.

Re-read my post...."Only in America will we continue to trash our Vietnam Vets & POWs and the horror and hell they went through!" It is much easier for you to trash me and make it look like I don't care about other Vets than it is to read my post. You have typical liberal Democrat written all over your face! Oh! BTW I will make it clear for you.... you might want to consider that trash talk! LOL!!!!

Who, are you kidding anyway?! By you writing the comment in a post shows that you have no problem re-trashing McCain during his POW status. Were you there? Were you in the torture chamber with him? I doubt any of the other POWs were as well. Somebody is making as assumption. As far as I am concerned you are slandering his character with no proof of any wrong doing.

You can't prove the trash talk so don't continue to drag the name of my senator through
the mud.

John McCain comes from my state and I see a lot of him on local television. He is a good man and worthy of the office of President. He cares about all Americans, not just Republicans. Both Hillary and O have both said that they will do whatever it takes to get a Democrat back into the White House in November . Gee, that sounds like someone real interested working in a non-partisan way.

I am a moderate that will vote for the right person. I do not vote down party lines. I just want to see the right candidate get in office.

John McCain has convinced my that he cares about America over everything else. I consider him a neighbor. He has a ranch just outside of Sedona which is less than 15 minutes from my house.

Money is not a big deal for him and either is power. BUT love of America is what drives him. I will take that attitude any day over the other one. The McCains are down to earth people....and I will say that first hand!!!

I won't say anything bad on Hil. I would have no problem with her as a second choice. I would welcome a woman in the White House!

With O - the only comment I will make is if or when he makes it into the White House, I am going to have a lot of fun with my cousin who is a big supporter of his. He wrote her a personal letter - BIG WHOOP! Hey! I am already having a lot of fun at her expense!!! As I said before O will have to earn my respect and I will nit pick everything he does or does not do!

Take the lemons and make lemonade!!!
 
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UPS Lifer

Well-Known Member
Diesel,
Look at my post in "Memorial Day Thanks" by scratch. I made it before I ever saw this thread. I state that the POWS are the real heroes... This was referring to another posters dad and what he went through. I also have an uncle who was a POW.

Your comments to discredit me back fired just a little. But that is OK, I accept your apology. You will learn to say that a lot if O gets in office! LOL! (Lemonade!!)

:its_all_good:
 

diesel96

Well-Known Member
Lets make one thing perfectly clear Lifer, you attacked me first for a debate that occurred about a month ago out of the blue. You obviously are a little late and have not read thru this thread so why do I have to waste my time with you and repeat the the reasoning. So I'm just going to copy a previous statement for justification :

Quote:
Originally Posted by diesel96
Lets face it, McCain IS running for president. People are under the impression that it's ok to question (D)John Kerry's military service but not (R)John McCain? Is there some kind of double standard here? Besides do we just disreguard these other Vietnam Veterans as chop liver who ARE the ones raising these issues about John McCain's heroic past thats being used in a presidential campaign to build up his canididacy. It is not I, using his heroic military record, but the GOP strategist and the right wing establishment as well as the media. The issue is not about downplaying his torture and suffering, he's admitted in his book that he gave limited intel to the enemy. The question is how much intel and why did he take the lead in 92' not to have any pow/mia documents release out of Vietnam? Are Americans not allowed to question a potential (R) presidential canidate who might sit in the most powerful office in the land and not know exactly happened during a 5/6 yr duration in captivity?

I would love for the media and the DC beltway politcal process to stay on issues, but in Brown Cafe when I see GOP opinionated propaganda such as ToonerII's hijacking a debate and market their canidate as the rough and rugged Marlboro Man at the same time calling Obama supporters stupid, then McCain's record becomes an issue. GOP has been playing this game for years and it's been very effective, and now you call foul when more and more Democrats are finally growing a spine and putting a spin on the GOP methodology.



I don't have a problem with John McCain the Man, theres no doubt he commands respect as a person an anybody here would be called a liar for not doing what he did to stay alive. But you just can't dismiss reputable people(vets, family members,Senators) for raising questions on mia/pow's and wanting them answered with evidense but have been stoned walled by the gov't led by Sen McCain. If you want to call me a "trash talker" then your calling them "trash talkers" as well. When you come to the realitization and want to address those issues and those witnesses, then we'll talk. But this issue is dead until then. Glorify McCain the person all you want, but McCain "the politician" is fair game, I do have big time problems with his continuance of this administration's polices and his flip-floping of the issues. If you know the man as well as you say you do, you can't sit their and tell me with a straight face that John McCain of 2000 is the same man as 2008. Of course money is not a problem to Sen McCain and he's down to Earth, he only left his first wife who was ill and married a hieress of the Anhieser-Busch family.
I'm sorry for your Uncle but many families including mine were effected by Vietnam as well, and have current loved ones serving in the military as we speak. Call me a Liberal Democrat or sterotype me all you want, just remember to take a number while you wait in line.
 

tieguy

Banned

tieguy

Banned
The trash talk that your refering to is substantiated from other vietnam vets. Or, maybe they are so insignificant that you have forgotten they are part of the combat troops and are heros as well. Just because they are not well known and not a politican running for president, their testimony carries no weight with you as well with the family members of pows and (R)Senators that were stonewalled by our gov't lead by Sen McCain. .

You're willing to accept their testimoney when it trashes McCain but denounced it when they told you how Kerry really was?
 

tieguy

Banned
Are Americans not allowed to question a potential (R) presidential canidate who might sit in the most powerful office in the land and not know exactly happened during a 5/6 yr duration in captivity?

According to you americans need to know what McCain did while a POW but we are not allowed to ask what Hussien did while sitting in that church pew for twenty years. We are not allowed to question Hussiens thought process when he appointed Wright head of his personal religious council.

McCain survived a very trying ordeal in vietnam. He deserves respect and respect only. Its a sleazy move on your part to even try to question his heroic survival under these conditions.

I'm not a big fan of McCain for president but how dare you question what the man did in vietnam.
 
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