This Year the PURPLE PROMISE DID NOT HAPPEN

bbsam

Moderator
Staff member
MGD
The sad part is that for all the "scam" talk around here, most don't really don't give a damn about you or me. They are simply pissed at what they are losing and feel spurned by a market that spurns their high priced method of transport deciding instead that for a couple days and a crap load of money in their pocket, it doesn't absolutely, positively have to be there overnight.
 

MaineGroundDriver

Well-Known Member
MGD
The sad part is that for all the "scam" talk around here, most don't really don't give a damn about you or me. They are simply pissed at what they are losing and feel spurned by a market that spurns their high priced method of transport deciding instead that for a couple days and a crap load of money in their pocket, it doesn't absolutely, positively have to be there overnight.

Exactly, they are pissed because we are "stealing" from them .. When in reality, they should be THANKING us for keeping their damn company afloat!!
 

vantexan

Well-Known Member
Reading some of these comments is ridiculous .. I am a GROUND driver .. I am NOT an immigrant .. I make roughly $15 an hour .. I get to listen to my radio/mp3 player etc .. I don't have management breathing down my neck .. as long as I follow the rules and provide quality service to my customers, while getting everything delivered in a timely fashion, I'm left alone and have the freedom to do my deliveries in whatever fashion I want (of course, while getting to my business customers in the general time they are accustom to me being there) ..

To me these freedoms are worth more than a few extra bucks an hour I'd make working for UPS or Express ..

Also, my contractor took us all out for a great fancy dinner right before peak began, drinks on him as well .. he's also taken us all out for breakfast a few times during peak to keep morale high .. he has handed out bonuses .. he has done a fine job keeping his drivers happy, providing enough extra help to get us home before supper EVERY night, etc ..

It's my CHOICE to, I guess, be part of this "scam" .. to be "taken advantage of" .. and seeing the stress on the Express drivers' faces this peak, I'll continue to make the same choice and stay where I'm "not appreciated" ..

I and some others start later than most couriers at my station since we are out later as 4X10's. I pretty much clock in, go to my truck, pretrip, on the belt pulling my own freight for about half the sort, which already is shorter than larger stations I've worked in. Then I'm onroad, working in one of the most scenic areas I've seen, and I've worked all over the country. I'm pretty much on my own, get paid $18.17hr, and have a few important benefits, even though they are scaled down from years ago. I think you should have the same. Your pay probably won't keep up with inflation, you'll have to buy into the new healthcare on your pay, your taxes are about to go up, you have no pension of any sort. I'm glad you enjoy living for today, but believe me there will come a day when you realize all those years of work are taking a toll, you won't be able to do this forever, and how will you provide for your family, let alone yourself if something bad happens? Not being an alarmist, talking about prudent concern for your own well being. Someday MFE's exhortations will hit home. Then what?
 

MrFedEx

Engorged Member
Exactly, they are pissed because we are "stealing" from them .. When in reality, they should be THANKING us for keeping their damn company afloat!!

You don't get it. You are not "stealing" from us...Fred is. The company would still be afloat even if Ground didn't exist because Express is still profitable, and would be much more profitable if they weren't upselling Ground. It would be very profitable if we had competent management at all levels, but especially at the top. Yep, I'm going to "thank" you for being dumb enough to work for the chump change Ground offers, and lowering the bar for all of us. What none of you over at Ground seem to get is that Express is very different. We don't just load the truck, and then straightline the same route every day. It is continuously different, and variable to a degree to which you are completely unaware. I could walk into your terminal tomorrow and do your job better than you as soon as I learned the route. I highly doubt you could do the same over here.

The Express courier operates at a higher level, simply because they have to. If you'd like to continue thinking we do the same job, be my guest...we don't. The average Ground person would last about a week at Express.
 

MrFedEx

Engorged Member
Reading some of these comments is ridiculous .. I am a GROUND driver .. I am NOT an immigrant .. I make roughly $15 an hour .. I get to listen to my radio/mp3 player etc .. I don't have management breathing down my neck .. as long as I follow the rules and provide quality service to my customers, while getting everything delivered in a timely fashion, I'm left alone and have the freedom to do my deliveries in whatever fashion I want (of course, while getting to my business customers in the general time they are accustom to me being there) ..

To me these freedoms are worth more than a few extra bucks an hour I'd make working for UPS or Express ..

Also, my contractor took us all out for a great fancy dinner right before peak began, drinks on him as well .. he's also taken us all out for breakfast a few times during peak to keep morale high .. he has handed out bonuses .. he has done a fine job keeping his drivers happy, providing enough extra help to get us home before supper EVERY night, etc ..

It's my CHOICE to, I guess, be part of this "scam" .. to be "taken advantage of" .. and seeing the stress on the Express drivers' faces this peak, I'll continue to make the same choice and stay where I'm "not appreciated" ..

Great. Where does your insurance coverage come from? Your contractor can afford to buy you a big fancy dinner with free drinks, because you are his cash cow. He skims the cream off the top and leaves you the rest, which is underpaid and completely up Sheet Creek if you get sick. Do you have a family? Where does their insurance come from? It comes from me, and the rest of the taxpayers who subsidize Ground.

Take a close look at what Fred S has created. I've been around long enough to remember RPS, and how those individual contractors struggled to make maybe $25,000 per year net way back when. They'd work 60 hours or more per week for a real wage of something like 4 to 5 dollars per hour after expenses. That looked really good to Fred, so he bought the company.

All Ground did was add some money to the kitty so the contractor did better and could buy multiple routes. They did the same thing on the line-haul end with the truckers, paying the drivers peanuts, but making it worthwhile for the contractor. Even so, Ground routes could be had for practically nothing in the 90's because a lot of people were buying-in, seeing that the profit just wasn't there (except for Fred), and getting-out at a loss.

Fred, in his infinite wisdom, gave the contractors a bigger piece of the pie as Ground expanded, but also increased the degree of corporate control. This is the step where Ground really took-off, as FedEx invested in facilities and really went after UPS market share, which was easy to take as long as cost was the only consideration because Ground service sucked.

As the degree of FedEx control increased, so did efficiency, and so began the myth of the "independent" contractor. Now, Fred ran the show, but kept the contractors fat and happy enough to shut them up. This is where Ground is today, steadily eating away at UPS market share because they pay their drivers about a third of UPS total compensation, and pass-off many major operating costs onto the contractors. UPS can never match Ground on cost, and until they wake-up and challenge the legality of the Ground model, Brown will continue to lose packages at an increasing rate.

The legal problem for Smith will be "degree of control", as I've said many times before here. IMO, FedEx doesn't stand a chance in court once the truth about the way the company is really run is revealed. Ground drivers should be employees pure and simple, and eventually that will be decided in court. UPS needs to help this process along because their survival depends on it.
 
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Mr. 7

The monkey on the left.
Reading some of these comments is ridiculous .. I am a GROUND driver .. I am NOT an immigrant .. I make roughly $15 an hour .. I get to listen to my radio/mp3 player etc .. I don't have management breathing down my neck .. as long as I follow the rules and provide quality service to my customers, while getting everything delivered in a timely fashion, I'm left alone and have the freedom to do my deliveries in whatever fashion I want (of course, while getting to my business customers in the general time they are accustom to me being there) ..

To me these freedoms are worth more than a few extra bucks an hour I'd make working for UPS or Express ..

Also, my contractor took us all out for a great fancy dinner right before peak began, drinks on him as well .. he's also taken us all out for breakfast a few times during peak to keep morale high .. he has handed out bonuses .. he has done a fine job keeping his drivers happy, providing enough extra help to get us home before supper EVERY night, etc ..

It's my CHOICE to, I guess, be part of this "scam" .. to be "taken advantage of" .. and seeing the stress on the Express drivers' faces this peak, I'll continue to make the same choice and stay where I'm "not appreciated" ..


mgd.
You sound like you like your job. That's great.
But, what about the bennes? Health, dental, vision insurance?
401, pension, perks?
 

overflowed

Well-Known Member
Ground drivers should be employees pure and simple, and eventually that will be decided in court. UPS needs to help this process alomg because their survival depends on it.[/QUOTE]

ups forum has a recent thread on this topic. I found it interesting. The drivers all seem to know something needs to be done or they'll keep bleeding large ground accounts. Some of them seem to think their service to the customers will bring those accounts back. If its unimportant enough to go ground in the first place shippers only care about the pennies. Lots of the upsers agree they will Have to address this issue. I believe at some point ups will force something hard at fedex ground. We'll see what happens. On a side note I've met quite a few ground drivers that came over to us. The higher IQ I think know somethings goin on over there. I ask all I meet what made them realize there was a difference. Different answers always. ie : "Used to pick up at an Express station in the evening and noticed all you guys come back to the building at the same time so I asked some questions."
I used to work in a Metro area. You would not believe how often immigrant ground drivers will come up to express drivers and ask " hey you know anyone selling an Express rte?" No clue what's even going on. Also, I bet this type of ignorance is encouraged. Why would you want to lose a good driver? Anyway, it is what it is.
 

MrFedEx

Engorged Member
Ground drivers should be employees pure and simple, and eventually that will be decided in court. UPS needs to help this process alomg because their survival depends on it.

ups forum has a recent thread on this topic. I found it interesting. The drivers all seem to know something needs to be done or they'll keep bleeding large ground accounts. Some of them seem to think their service to the customers will bring those accounts back. If its unimportant enough to go ground in the first place shippers only care about the pennies. Lots of the upsers agree they will Have to address this issue. I believe at some point ups will force something hard at fedex ground. We'll see what happens. On a side note I've met quite a few ground drivers that came over to us. The higher IQ I think know somethings goin on over there. I ask all I meet what made them realize there was a difference. Different answers always. ie : "Used to pick up at an Express station in the evening and noticed all you guys come back to the building at the same time so I asked some questions."
I used to work in a Metro area. You would not believe how often immigrant ground drivers will come up to express drivers and ask " hey you know anyone selling an Express rte?" No clue what's even going on. Also, I bet this type of ignorance is encouraged. Why would you want to lose a good driver? Anyway, it is what it is.[/QUOTE]




UPS is starting to wake-up on this as Fred eats their "lunch" (bbsam's terminology). I think that they will be successful if they invest their money the way Fred has...in politicians who see things his way. There are also a lot of Right-leaning courts that are Fred-friendly. That kind of crap needs to be stopped.
 

overflowed

Well-Known Member
UPS is starting to wake-up on this as Fred eats their "lunch" (bbsam's terminology). I think that they will be successful if they invest their money the way Fred has...in politicians who see things his way. There are also a lot of Right-leaning courts that are Fred-friendly. That kind of crap needs to be stopped.[/QUOTE]
I think they have no choice in the matter. Once Ups starts throwing big money around things will get interesting.
 

vantexan

Well-Known Member
ups forum has a recent thread on this topic. I found it interesting. The drivers all seem to know something needs to be done or they'll keep bleeding large ground accounts. Some of them seem to think their service to the customers will bring those accounts back. If its unimportant enough to go ground in the first place shippers only care about the pennies. Lots of the upsers agree they will Have to address this issue. I believe at some point ups will force something hard at fedex ground. We'll see what happens. On a side note I've met quite a few ground drivers that came over to us. The higher IQ I think know somethings goin on over there. I ask all I meet what made them realize there was a difference. Different answers always. ie : "Used to pick up at an Express station in the evening and noticed all you guys come back to the building at the same time so I asked some questions."
I used to work in a Metro area. You would not believe how often immigrant ground drivers will come up to express drivers and ask " hey you know anyone selling an Express rte?" No clue what's even going on. Also, I bet this type of ignorance is encouraged. Why would you want to lose a good driver? Anyway, it is what it is.




UPS is starting to wake-up on this as Fred eats their "lunch" (bbsam's terminology). I think that they will be successful if they invest their money the way Fred has...in politicians who see things his way. There are also a lot of Right-leaning courts that are Fred-friendly. That kind of crap needs to be stopped.[/QUOTE]

Then why haven't the Left-leaning courts, such as the district in California where many lawsuits are filed, stopped Ground from operating as is? Unless people are being physically harmed the courts are going to see Ground as providing jobs while saving business owners money. There are no Constitutional guarantees of high pay and good benefits. That's a function of the marketplace where competition for workers provides better pay and perks. Bad economy=no need to compete for workers. About all we can do is be saddened, even disgusted by how Ground drivers are being compensated. Not going to do much good, they only care about the money, not our opinions.
 

bbsam

Moderator
Staff member
UPS is starting to wake-up on this as Fred eats their "lunch" (bbsam's terminology). I think that they will be successful if they invest their money the way Fred has...in politicians who see things his way. There are also a lot of Right-leaning courts that are Fred-friendly. That kind of crap needs to be stopped.
I think they have no choice in the matter. Once Ups starts throwing big money around things will get interesting.[/QUOTE]it isn't in the courts where action would need to take place. It is in how the law distinguishing between employee and contractor. It is vague and open to wide latitude of interpretation from court to court. There is only one reason for that. Members of both parties want it that way.
 

overflowed

Well-Known Member
Then why haven't the Left-leaning courts, such as the district in California where many lawsuits are filed, stopped Ground from operating as is? Unless people are being physically harmed the courts are going to see Ground as providing jobs while saving business owners money. There are no Constitutional guarantees of high pay and good benefits. That's a function of the marketplace where competition for workers provides better pay and perks. Bad economy=no need to compete for workers. About all we can do is be saddened, even disgusted by how Ground drivers are being compensated. Not going to do much good, they only care about the money, not our opinions.[/QUOTE]

There is a lot of money at risk. Also means there is a lot of money being thrown around.
 

MrFedEx

Engorged Member
UPS is starting to wake-up on this as Fred eats their "lunch" (bbsam's terminology). I think that they will be successful if they invest their money the way Fred has...in politicians who see things his way. There are also a lot of Right-leaning courts that are Fred-friendly. That kind of crap needs to be stopped.

Then why haven't the Left-leaning courts, such as the district in California where many lawsuits are filed, stopped Ground from operating as is? Unless people are being physically harmed the courts are going to see Ground as providing jobs while saving business owners money. There are no Constitutional guarantees of high pay and good benefits. That's a function of the marketplace where competition for workers provides better pay and perks. Bad economy=no need to compete for workers. About all we can do is be saddened, even disgusted by how Ground drivers are being compensated. Not going to do much good, they only care about the money, not our opinions.[/QUOTE]

I don't think you and Hoaxter can pass this off as the "free market" at work. While it may be politically expedient to "create" jobs in a down economy the legal question of employee/non-employee is a valid one, and not connected to political ideologies that advocate marketplace corrections.
 

vantexan

Well-Known Member
Then why haven't the Left-leaning courts, such as the district in California where many lawsuits are filed, stopped Ground from operating as is? Unless people are being physically harmed the courts are going to see Ground as providing jobs while saving business owners money. There are no Constitutional guarantees of high pay and good benefits. That's a function of the marketplace where competition for workers provides better pay and perks. Bad economy=no need to compete for workers. About all we can do is be saddened, even disgusted by how Ground drivers are being compensated. Not going to do much good, they only care about the money, not our opinions.

There is a lot of money at risk. Also means there is a lot of money being thrown around.[/QUOTE]

In this corner, millions of business owners wanting cheap shipping. In that corner, UPS wanting relief from competition. Who do you think is likely to win?
 

overflowed

Well-Known Member
There is a lot of money at risk. Also means there is a lot of money being thrown around.

In this corner, millions of business owners wanting cheap shipping. In that corner, UPS wanting relief from competition. Who do you think is likely to win?[/QUOTE]
I know who is likely to win. But who has deeper pockets. Man, corruption runs real deep these days.
 
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