Unions and politics

Bagels

Family Leave Fridays!!!
Again.......ASSUMPTIONS.

Reasonable & realistic assumptions, based on Walmart's lobbying that lower minimum wages would lead to additional job creation as well as the company's continued decisions to reduced the pay of incumbent employees to that of, or just slightly above, minimum wage.
 

Overpaid Union Thug

Well-Known Member
Again.......ASSUMPTIONS.

Reasonable & realistic assumptions, based on Walmart's lobbying that lower minimum wages would lead to additional job creation as well as the company's continued decisions to reduced the pay of incumbent employees to that of, or just slightly above, minimum wage.

The ole guard at Walmart is definitely greedy. But they are not stupid. Now, get ready for my next statement. Read it in its entirely before responding. I don't think living on part-time job at minimum wage is all that difficult if supplemented with another job. Americans, even at minimum wage jobs, enjoy a standard of living that plenty of people in other countries only dream of. Imagine if everyone would just try to be a little more responsible with life decisions that could, DO, put them in a rut financially. Minimum wage wouldn't be a big deal. Hell, a UPS driver would be sitting pretty in that climate. ;)
 

brownone

Well-Known Member
At some point in the next ten years the Teamsters will be the downfall of Ups. Driver pay and benefits will price us out of business. At some point customers will say no to higher shipping rates. Just a matter of time. Only reason the automobile companies are profitable now are the wages were lowered for the union labor.
 

Bagels

Family Leave Fridays!!!
The ole guard at Walmart is definitely greedy. But they are not stupid. Now, get ready for my next statement. Read it in its entirely before responding. I don't think living on part-time job at minimum wage is all that difficult if supplemented with another job. Americans, even at minimum wage jobs, enjoy a standard of living that plenty of people in other countries only dream of. Imagine if everyone would just try to be a little more responsible with life decisions that could, DO, put them in a rut financially. Minimum wage wouldn't be a big deal. Hell, a UPS driver would be sitting pretty in that climate. ;)

Uh, minimum wage is $7.25. Using ADP (the company that does our payroll)'s calculator, for a single individual living in my state, that translates into less than $12,000 annually after taxes (based on a 40-hour work week). A one-bedroom apartment in a not-quite-seedy area averages $700, including heat (a necessity in a cold climate). There's absolutely no public transportation in my area, so having an automobile is a must. You're simply not going to live on $12,000, unless you're willing to live in a drug-infested, crime-filled neighborhood. And you'll be sharing your apartment with bed bugs.

Using the same calculator, in California, the amount (at Federal minimum wage) is slightly more than $12,000. The cheapest, seediest apartments in the Los Angeles area will absorb nearly all of that.

Simply not realistic. If you're married and both persons are earning minimum wage & juggling their schedules, it becomes more doable. Have a kid, again, not dobable.
 

DriveInDriveOut

Inordinately Right
Now, get ready for my next statement. Read it in its entirely before responding. I don't think living on part-time job at minimum wage is all that difficult if supplemented with another job. Americans, even at minimum wage jobs, enjoy a standard of living that plenty of people in other countries only dream of. Imagine if everyone would just try to be a little more responsible with life decisions that could, DO, put them in a rut financially. Minimum wage wouldn't be a big deal. Hell, a UPS driver would be sitting pretty in that climate. ;)

Where to begin. In a way I agree with you, even people classified as living in poverty in the US, have it way better than most truly impoverished people around the world. However, it is not as easy to live on a low income in the US as most people think.

Poor people in the US spend a huge portion of their income on food, rent, and transportation, often more than they make.

Food prices are huge, and rising. "Urban Deserts" as they are being called, leave some poor people over paying for terrible food from a corner store, because a a real grocery store can't stay in business in a derelict neighborhood. Poor people often pay tomorrow's prices for yesterday's food. The poor nutrition will undoubtedly lead them to future health costs.

The housing crisis has pushed a huge amount of people into the renters market, this has increased rent prices around the country. My neighborhood used to be all low income, and now has a lot of middle income people. I'm just glad I have my rent price locked in for a few years, because the comparable houses around me coming up for rent are at least 50% more than I am paying.

High interest rates for people with bad credit don't seem to deter people from buying cars, often because they are uneducated, and they simply don't understand the debt they are getting themselves into. Add onto that the price of mandatory insurance, and high gas prices, and most poor people either will go into debt to get to work, or will use public transportation. Urban sprawl and "white flight" as we call it here, along with government budget cuts, have left bus routes under serving almost everyone. The time spent working, and waiting to get to and from jobs and home, forces them to spend even more money, on child care.

A single person working two part-time jobs certainly can survive, but trying to support a family like that is near impossible.
 

TxRoadDawg

Well-Known Member
unless conscript labor has suddenly appeared in this country no one is ever FORCED to work for any wage they don't like. you bring minimum skills to an employer you should earn minimal pay. everyone calls walmart the devil but how can anyone justify thinking putting a box on a shelf or scanning packages at checkout deserves a wage comparable to a skill professional like a computer technician or auto mechanic. also no one is forced by law to only work one job. the rate this economy is adding part time jobs theere should be plenty for those that need to supplement their income.
 

Bagels

Family Leave Fridays!!!
unless conscript labor has suddenly appeared in this country no one is ever FORCED to work for any wage they don't like. you bring minimum skills to an employer you should earn minimal pay. everyone calls walmart the devil but how can anyone justify thinking putting a box on a shelf or scanning packages at checkout deserves a wage comparable to a skill professional like a computer technician or auto mechanic. also no one is forced by law to only work one job. the rate this economy is adding part time jobs theere should be plenty for those that need to supplement their income.

Kinda like if all the gas stations raised the price of gas to $20/gallon, or all the markets raised the price of food 1000%: nobody's forcing you to buy gas or eat.

Walmart has single handily slashed the wage pool in this country. I agree that minimum skills should earn minimum pay, but $7.25 isn't realistic for minimum pay, hence why most workers wind up collecting government assistance. In other words, Walmart's profiting billions to its management & investors, but I'm subsidizing their operation. If $7.25 was realistic, and the market really did dictate wages, then Walmart wouldn't have had problems filling these jobs (prior to the economy collapsing). Fact remains that real compensation, across all professions, has declined over the past 10+ years, while corporate productivity & profits & exec compensation is at an all-time high.
 

DriveInDriveOut

Inordinately Right
$7.25 isn't realistic for minimum pay, hence why most workers wind up collecting government assistance. In other words, Walmart's profiting billions to its management & investors, but I'm subsidizing their operation.

Bingo. There is a high cost to society for those low "rollback" prices.
 

UnconTROLLed

perfection
Basic supply and demand.
The "corporations will run wild with no minimum wages" is nonsense.
Small business would receive a major shot in the arm. It's the large firms that can afford $10 or $15/hr minimums.

No one's going to work for $1/hr. That argument is so simple-minded and ignorant of basic economics. Companies will quickly find that they cannot hire anyone. There are loads of very legitimate arguments against wage floors, as well as price ceilings, and etc. Historically, price fixing often exacerbates the problem which it was meant to correct.

The obvious flaw I can see with going ahead and eliminating wage floors altogether; the thousands of other variables and law that affect the labor markets would then need to be evaluated.

Would also like to see abolished New Deal/Wagner, Taft-hartley, etc. But it's not going to happen overnight.
 

Bagels

Family Leave Fridays!!!
Basic supply and demand.
The "corporations will run wild with no minimum wages" is nonsense.
Small business would receive a major shot in the arm. It's the large firms that can afford $10 or $15/hr minimums.

No one's going to work for $1/hr. That argument is so simple-minded and ignorant of basic economics. Companies will quickly find that they cannot hire anyone. There are loads of very legitimate arguments against wage floors, as well as price ceilings, and etc. Historically, price fixing often exacerbates the problem which it was meant to correct.

The obvious flaw I can see with going ahead and eliminating wage floors altogether; the thousands of other variables and law that affect the labor markets would then need to be evaluated.

Would also like to see abolished New Deal/Wagner, Taft-hartley, etc. But it's not going to happen overnight.

$1 is an exaggeration, but don't fool yourself -- if minimum wage was eliminated, Walmart and its competitors would waste no time lowering starting wages to $5 (or slightly less) in pockets of the country. In many rural regions, Walmart's the only employer in town (having chased away the local competition). If you need $$$, what are you going to do? This is essentially happening right now, where de facto collusion has lead to stagnant starting wages; in many cases, Walmart has forced its competition to lower their wages to compete. If you have minimum skills but need a job -- which describes millions of Americans -- you have no choice but to accept whatever's being offered.

If minimum wage really reflected the market, then these establishments wouldn't have problems attracting employees nor see the turnover that they do.
 

The Other Side

Well-Known Troll
Troll
Your whole argument hinges on the assumptions that companies would actually attempt to hire someone at $1/hr, would all hire illegal aliens, and that illegal aliens would actually be dumb enough to work for $1/hr. LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!

Now back to reality.......

I don't fully agree with completely abolishing the minimum wage. I do believe it would be beneficial to the economy if the the wages were varied by industry and based on local cost of living and the costs of doing business and other factors instead of having just one blanket minimum wage.

And concerning unions and politics..... unions should re-evaluate their strategy when it comes to how they support a candidate or party. Unless they want to relive the embarrassment of ObamaCare again. It seems like they just blindly throw their weight behind "democrats" and always end up scratching their heads and wondering what happened afterwards. Or maybe they should stay out of politics. To me it seems that no political party has really done anything for unions anyway. Nor should they.

Oh yeah, maybe they should support the republican party candidates who constantly attempt to end overtime pay, repeal the fair labor standards act of 1939, extend the straight time workweek to 50 hours...

Yeah, thats in the american workers best interests.

The republicans, the party that gave america 10.7% unemployment. Ya, unions should get behind that movement.

Peace

TOS
 

rudy5150

Well-Known Member
At some point in the next ten years the Teamsters will be the downfall of Ups. Driver pay and benefits will price us out of business. At some point customers will say no to higher shipping rates. Just a matter of time. Only reason the automobile companies are profitable now are the wages were lowered for the union labor.

How do u figure? UPS is now filled with cover drivers making $18 an hour compared to $34 an hour for full timer at top scale pay. Then once that cover driver is hired full time which takes forever they have to wait 4 yrs to reach top scale. Us Teamsters work harder than fed ex drivers and fed ex part timers. Yes even though we are in a union we work harder than them. Sounds pretty backwards doesn't it. If UPS fails it will be managements fault with their micromanagement, unfair treatment of its workforce, and their ignorance to figure out ways to make things work better instead of blaming the teamsters!
 

BrownBrokeDown

Well-Known Member
At some point in the next ten years the Teamsters will be the downfall of Ups. Driver pay and benefits will price us out of business. At some point customers will say no to higher shipping rates. Just a matter of time. Only reason the automobile companies are profitable now are the wages were lowered for the union labor.

That is not true. I work for a multi-billion dollar international company at my other job. Trust me, they strictly make decisions based on money. There is a reason why we use UPS. Even with the teamster wages UPS still offers a better discount than FedEx to a large portion of the major shippers in the US.
 

Overpaid Union Thug

Well-Known Member
Your whole argument hinges on the assumptions that companies would actually attempt to hire someone at $1/hr, would all hire illegal aliens, and that illegal aliens would actually be dumb enough to work for $1/hr. LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!

Now back to reality.......

I don't fully agree with completely abolishing the minimum wage. I do believe it would be beneficial to the economy if the the wages were varied by industry and based on local cost of living and the costs of doing business and other factors instead of having just one blanket minimum wage.

And concerning unions and politics..... unions should re-evaluate their strategy when it comes to how they support a candidate or party. Unless they want to relive the embarrassment of ObamaCare again. It seems like they just blindly throw their weight behind "democrats" and always end up scratching their heads and wondering what happened afterwards. Or maybe they should stay out of politics. To me it seems that no political party has really done anything for unions anyway. Nor should they.

Oh yeah, maybe they should support the republican party candidates who constantly attempt to end overtime pay, repeal the fair labor standards act of 1939, extend the straight time workweek to 50 hours...

Yeah, thats in the american workers best interests.

The republicans, the party that gave america 10.7% unemployment. Ya, unions should get behind that movement.

Peace

TOS

Entitlement minded people buying houses they couldn't afford with balloon mortgages and the mainstream media scaring the American people into thinking there was a recession (three months before there actually was, by definition, a recession) caused the recession. And your 10% unemployment figure.

The good old left wing media political machine manufactured a recession and blamed republicans for it to ramp up support for our future Teleprompter President by tricking the average democrat voter and gullible "independents" into thinking that thousands of people (that never should have been issued mortgages in the first place but were anyway because of bs democrat mortgage policies) losing their mortgages was going to crash the economy. Then the banks, wether they are greedy or not, took the fall. Hook line and sinker!! It was a well crafted and executed plan and was all the doing of democrats and their policies.

And the Teamsters were all googoo gaga over ObamaCare and now look at them. LOL! The law will do more damage to the average American's economic outlook than any 10 republican bogus policies could ever do. Thank you Hoffa and Teamsters for making us all look like complete bozos. LOL!
 

Bagels

Family Leave Fridays!!!
LOL!!!

Who pushed for the ability for banks to be involved in risky investments? Suddenly BoA, WaMu, IndyMac, etc. can shed themselves of responsibility of the loans they write. What could possibly go wrong with that scenario? And when "entitlement-minded" people walk into a bank & speak with a highly educated financial adviser who sells them on the concept of a risky loan & why they should use such loan to buy more house than what they thought they could afford, you blame them? Really? Especially given how long we've deemed such process to be taboo (e.g. it's incredibly difficult to obtain a mortgage)? Even the mastermind behind the original idea that convention banks should be allowed to make investments has since rescinded his position, proclaiming that most people in position of authority will always abuse it if they feel it can generate a few bucks.

The only sad thing about the financial crisis is that the trusted individuals who masterminded it walked away with billions of dollars in personal wealth -- sometimes in the form of a cash bonus as a parting gift. These people are criminals and belong in jail, with their wealth taken away and paid as retribution to the investors they defrauded.

And ObamaCare... given that as the steep decline in insured Americans continues has lead toward an epidemic in this country, what do you think should have been done? Hmm... the quality of health insurance you receive is tied to your employer... the amount of profits generated is tied to your health insurance. Gee, sounds like a recipe for success!!!!!


Entitlement minded people buying houses they couldn't afford with balloon mortgages and the mainstream media scaring the American people into thinking there was a recession (three months before there actually was, by definition, a recession) caused the recession. And your 10% unemployment figure.

The good old left wing media political machine manufactured a recession and blamed republicans for it to ramp up support for our future Teleprompter President by tricking the average democrat voter and gullible "independents" into thinking that thousands of people (that never should have been issued mortgages in the first place but were anyway because of bs democrat mortgage policies) losing their mortgages was going to crash the economy. Then the banks, wether they are greedy or not, took the fall. Hook line and sinker!! It was a well crafted and executed plan and was all the doing of democrats and their policies.

And the Teamsters were all googoo gaga over ObamaCare and now look at them. LOL! The law will do more damage to the average American's economic outlook than any 10 republican bogus policies could ever do. Thank you Hoffa and Teamsters for making us all look like complete bozos. LOL!
 

TxRoadDawg

Well-Known Member
LOL!!!

Who pushed for the ability for banks to be involved in risky investments? Suddenly BoA, WaMu, IndyMac, etc. can shed themselves of responsibility of the loans they write. What could possibly go wrong with that scenario? And when "entitlement-minded" people walk into a bank & speak with a highly educated financial adviser who sells them on the concept of a risky loan & why they should use such loan to buy more house than what they thought they could afford, you blame them? Really? Especially given how long we've deemed such process to be taboo (e.g. it's incredibly difficult to obtain a mortgage)? Even the mastermind behind the original idea that convention banks should be allowed to make investments has since rescinded his position, proclaiming that most people in position of authority will always abuse it if they feel it can generate a few bucks.

The only sad thing about the financial crisis is that the trusted individuals who masterminded it walked away with billions of dollars in personal wealth -- sometimes in the form of a cash bonus as a parting gift. These people are criminals and belong in jail, with their wealth taken away and paid as retribution to the investors they defrauded.

And ObamaCare... given that as the steep decline in insured Americans continues has lead toward an epidemic in this country, what do you think should have been done? Hmm... the quality of health insurance you receive is tied to your employer... the amount of profits generated is tied to your health insurance. Gee, sounds like a recipe for success!!!!!

the riskiest investments banks made were mortgages to people making 8-10 bucks an hour interest only with the HOPE they could roll out of it in a year or 2 before the balloon payment popped. And gee isnt it coincidental 7 out of 10 jobs created this year are PART time to stay under the obamacare radar. I'd almost swear I read a quote by Hoffa saying Obamacare would be the direct cause of the downfall of the 40 hour work week.
 

Bagels

Family Leave Fridays!!!
the riskiest investments banks made were mortgages to people making 8-10 bucks an hour interest only with the HOPE they could roll out of it in a year or 2 before the balloon payment popped. And gee isnt it coincidental 7 out of 10 jobs created this year are PART time to stay under the obamacare radar. I'd almost swear I read a quote by Hoffa saying Obamacare would be the direct cause of the downfall of the 40 hour work week.

Wrong. These were people across ALL income levels being sold mortgages that they didn't understand or were assured that they could re-finance easily. It's a misnomer that "everybody" was sold more home than they could afford. In was the type of mortgage, the excessive amount of the loan in regards to their income, ensuing job losses & a combination of those factors. For example, a UPS driver may have taken a $250,000 mortgage on a $280,000 home. He could easily afford to pay a conventional 30-year loan on the home, but the banker sold him on the idea of a 10-year loan with a $200,000 balloon payment at the end of the loan. After all, the housing market's never crashed, has always risen above inflation, and due to low mortgage interest rates it's a good idea to mortgage the entire amount of a home & invest the principle in the stock market. Well, the market crashed and now that $280,000 home is worth $180,000. The UPS driver does not have access to $200,000 ... but he does have $50,000 to pay the difference -- but opps, the lenders -- who just received federal bailouts -- are now keeping their checkbooks closed, so well, Mr. UPS man is friend.

Bottom line: historically a home loan was perceived as difficult to obtain; when banks were forced to hold onto their loans (or sell them to other banks), they were very conservative with their lending. People actually trusted the banks to act in their best interests, when that wasn't occurring. Instead, the banks were writing ridiculous mortgages, deceiving borrowers, fraudulently inflating the borrower's credentials to investors ... and persons were pocketing BILLIONS off these practices. And yet you primarily blame the borrowers? "I'm sorry, honey, but you MADE me hit you!!"

And as far as job creation... can you establish a link to ObamaCare? Most of the jobs created this year were in the retail/restaurant sector -- essentially PT jobs replacing ... PT jobs lost during the recession. Long before Obama was elected, companies -- including UPS -- were transitioning toward PT workers. Teachers, police, accountants, lawyers, you name it, have all seen soaring numbers of PT jobs as companies seek to lower labor costs (for some reason, we think it's OK to pay a PT accountant $20K annually but his FT counterpart $60K, plus benefits ... same with teachers). UPS even tried to convert their FT driver supervisors into PTers circa 2007 (pre-Obama). Didn't work out, obviously.

- - -

Once upon a time I could walk into my bank and speak with a financial consultant who would provide me with excellent advice regarding my finances. Since the shattering of Glass-Steagall, that's no longer the case. Banks are more interested in selling me high-commission ("load") investments than they are steering me in the right direction. Unfortunately, to the population that grew up with the trusting relationship, they cannot comprehend this.
 
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