Virtual time study.

[Bubblehead]

Red, it seems to me that by filing a greivance on this you are giving a level of credibility to time studies. Are time studies mentioned in the contract anywhere?

I agree. The only production language in the contract that I know of is "a fair days work for a fair days pay". That's the way it needs to stay. All their allowances and overs and unders are all fiction in my book. As a steward or an agent of the union, these numbers are not and should not be recognized as valid or even ill conceived. Leave these numbers as fodder for the managers and their conference calls. To recognize or negotiate these standards would be essentially opening a Pandora's box. I'm guessing your business agent will not pursuit that grievance. That is if the language is the same in your contract as it is in the one the rest of us operate under.

The one constant and sanity maintaining factor in this profession is the fact that I am payed by the hour.

 

[UPSmeoff]

We had our gps time study done about a month ago.

We have heard, although not 100 percent positive, that the results suggested that 2 routes be added to our area of study.

Managment threw those results away and are working on another study. They are of course denying everything.

 

[tourists24]

PS red how is it a contract violation? Time studies are not recognized by the union so why would the union have a say in how they are changed?

I think I know what Red may be filing on. Article 6 of the master agreement has language regarding new technologies and UPS's responsiblity to provide information to the union. We are not talking production numbers here, but we all know that gps is not going away. Is this what the grievance is under Red?

 

[JustTired]

To recognize or negotiate these standards would be essentially opening a Pandora's box.

That's true! But it might be to the companies' detriment moreso than the drivers.

I used to work in the auto industry before UPS. My job was to inspect certain parts. The agreed upon (union/company) amount per 8hr shift was 70 pieces. Any more and the union reps would pay you a visit. Any less and it was the companies turn. Well, a person working at a steady (but not overly quick) pace could do the job in 2 hrs. So it made for a long day. Do a little, go goof off, do a little, go goof off.

My point is that when those standards become part of a contract, that is the "law". Anyone willing to go above and beyond will be held accountable by the union. And any changes to the standards will have to be negotiated.

So a fair timestudy would most likely hurt the company if it had to be strictly adhered to. The runners would be harassed by the union. They would fall in line to avoid the conflict. This would most likely force the company to add drivers.

Of course the key is a "fair time study". It would almost have to be done by an independent agent.

I would be skeptical of any study. But, moreso, one that is being done by satellites that are several hundred miles above you.

 

[trplnkl]

The walk distance is just one factor in the over all time study. The over all time study is unfair and based on or determined by company preference or convenience rather than by necessity or the intrinsic nature of running a delivery route. (ok I admit I took part of that last sentence from the definition of arbitrary) The company uses time studies to reduce the cost of operating a delivery route. I understand that and don't totally disagree with the concept, but it sure seems to me it has gotten out of hand and makes doing what UPS says is a fair days work impossible in most cases. They can cut the time alloted for the "planned day" all they want it will just mean most drivers will just be working more and more hours and filing more and more triple time greivances.

 

[Big Babooba]

We had our gps time study done about a month ago.

We have heard, although not 100 percent positive, that the results suggested that 2 routes be added to our area of study.

Managment threw those results away and are working on another study. They are of course denying everything.

A typical management response maybe?

 

[sortaisle]

Hmmm...virtual studies haven't happened over here in Spokane yet. They just did an old school time study last year. The first on in 12 years as I understand it. Most people gained time, but the center threw that out. I listen to some of the older drivers saying that it used to be 100 stops and pickups and that was it. Now it's an average of 123 stops. This is a very sad trend for the future drivers.

 

[pretzel_man]

Sorry P aman but there is absolutely NO WAY this can accurately measure walk distance. For example, I have checked out stops on google earth and it simply cannot show the distance when going up a hill. I have alot of big homes built on hills where I have over 60 steps from the street to the door (by the way I take big steps probably close to 3 feet) it cannot show that distance.

On another note about these "virtual" time studies, how in the *** do you come up with drive distances at different speed limits, traffic control devices (dead time) and traffic congestion (slow, dead time)?

Looks like we're all infor more harrassment from management for being overallowed because of new time allowances due to these FAKE time studies.

You are right... If there is a hill, Google Earth or Microsoft Virtual Earth will not measure the distance correctly.

For those stops that are on steep hills, I guess some adjustment should be made. From what I've seen, the remaning stops (which are the overwhelming majority) will be more accurate, and easily audited.

You mention travel time in your post as well. This new system does NOT measure travel.

I don't know what they are doing to address travel allowances, but from what I've seen travel is rarely the cause of overallowed. Of course, for individual stops or individual drivers it can be a problem.

P-Man

 

[tieguy]

I have seached to see if we already had a thread going and could not find any.

Two weeks ago we were informed of this new time study that would use gps/ world track satelites to measure walks from the middle of the street to the homes/business stops. My center was the first and since two others have been studied and the answers keep changing from center to center.

I have already filed a greivance on this for failure to negotiate with the teamsters these technological changes, but my question is has any one else gone through this?

Ifso can you explain it a little and how did it change the time study in place?

The intent is to time study performance.

You guys refuse to recognize performance standards and measurement?

Yet you want to grieve a new tool that measures performance?

 

[hangin455]

Unless you're on bonus I see no reason for grieving this.

 

[UpstateNYUPSer(Ret)]

My point is that when those standards become part of a contract, that is the "law". Anyone willing to go above and beyond will be held accountable by the union. And any changes to the standards will have to be negotiated.

This may look good on paper but you are forgetting the human element. People work at different paces based upon a myriad of factors, to include experience, ability and the type of work ethic they have. Punishing those who simply work "better" or "faster" than others is counterproductive IMO.

So a fair timestudy would most likely hurt the company if it had to be strictly adhered to. The runners would be harassed by the union. They would fall in line to avoid the conflict. This would most likely force the company to add drivers.

Let's give an example of what you are proposing. My area has just been time studied and it shows that I need 100 stops for an 8 hour day. However, I know that I can do 100 stops at a safe pace in 6 hours. Are you suggesting that I should go from a SPORH of 16.6 to 12.5 just so that I meet my time study allowance?

Just curious, you state that "the runners would be harassed by the union". What about the "milkers"?

Of course the key is a "fair time study". It would almost have to be done by an independent agent.

I do agree with you here both on the fair time study and the need to have an independent agent do the study. I think that we can both agree that this will never happen.

I would be skeptical of any study. But, moreso, one that is being done by satellites that are several hundred miles above you.

There are may variables that cannot be adequately addressed by a satellite several hundred miles in space. Walking distance, traffic, weather conditions, etc., all combine to either extend our day or, if ideal, make for a good day.


JT, you make some really good points here but asking someone to work "down" to a time allowance which may be designed for the average driver is simply unacceptable to me. Drivers who simply work faster and better than others should not be penalized for doing so. Drivers who work in such a manner as to meet established time allowances are performing the job in a satisfactory manner.

 

[IWorkAsDirected]

I havent seen the program to do this, but normal GPS can guage elevation so i dont know why the DIAD couldnt as well (it wouldnt be exactly acurrate but itd be closer than doing the straight line)

The drive distances would be the same.....i figure theyd do the study for the week and average out the times so if there was weather, accident or whatever to disrupt traffic it would be taken somewhat out of the problem.

They are not using gps to do the time studies, they are using google earth and something called virtual earth. We had an ie person at our center a week ago telling us how it is done, nothing is done with gps.

 

[IWorkAsDirected]

You are right... If there is a hill, Google Earth or Microsoft Virtual Earth will not measure the distance correctly.

For those stops that are on steep hills, I guess some adjustment should be made. From what I've seen, the remaning stops (which are the overwhelming majority) will be more accurate, and easily audited.

You mention travel time in your post as well. This new system does NOT measure travel.

I don't know what they are doing to address travel allowances, but from what I've seen travel is rarely the cause of overallowed. Of course, for individual stops or individual drivers it can be a problem.

P-Man

The biggest change in my area and most in our center in the last 15 years(since the last time study) Is traffic, new subdivisions, slower travel time because of new streets with slower speed limits, more traffic and more lights and stop signs, don't try to tell me these things don't affect your day and if your allowances are based on ripping a few miles at 45-50 and now you've got a 25 mph speed limit, tons of traffic and lights it can most certainly make a difference as far as over allowed.

Of course you guys know everything, we're just a bunch of dumb, lazy slugs right?

 

[brownmonster]

Will it measure only to the front door or all the way thru the store to the back room. I put pkgs where people want them, oftentimes a good walk from the front door.

 

[705red]

Red, it seems to me that by filing a greivance on this you are giving a level of credibility to time studies. Are time studies mentioned in the contract anywhere?

Agreed. I was always told that the union doesn't recognize time allowances. However they want to come up with their fairy tale numbers is up to them.

I guess this could be read as the company acknowledging that their time studies are inaccurate. But like it said in another post, it's probably just a move to eliminate some IE jobs. We all know it's not for our benefit.

I think I know what Red may be filing on. Article 6 of the master agreement has language regarding new technologies and UPS's responsiblity to provide information to the union. We are not talking production numbers here, but we all know that gps is not going away. Is this what the grievance is under Red?

Two reasons that i filed and both were at the direction of the union, Article 6 clearly states about the use of new technology and article 55 covers "new" bonus plans. Both of these must be negotiated with the union.
[FONT=Calibri,Bold][FONT=Calibri,Bold]Article 6 Section 4. Technological Change[/FONT]

[FONT=Calibri,Bold]1. Technological change shall be defined as any significant change in equipment or materials which results in a significant change in​

[FONT=Calibri,Bold]the work of the bargaining unit or diminishes the number of workers in the bargaining unit.

[FONT=Calibri,Bold]2. The Employer and the Union agree to establish a National Teamster/UPS Committee for Technological Change, consisting of an
[FONT=Calibri,Bold]equal number of representatives from the Union and UPS. The Committee shall meet in conjunction with the National Grievance
[FONT=Calibri,Bold]Panel as necessary to review any planned technological changes covered by this Section.[/FONT]​

[FONT=Calibri,Bold]3. The Employer will [/FONT]
[/FONT]

[FONT=Calibri,Bold][FONT=Calibri,Bold]shall [/FONT][/FONT]advise the affected Local Unions and the National Teamster/UPS Committee for Technological Change

​

​

[FONT=Calibri,Bold][FONT=Calibri,Bold]Union ​

​

[/FONT][/FONT]

of any proposed technological changes at least six (6) months prior to the implementation of such change except where the

change was later determined in which case the Employer shall provide as much notice as possible.
4. The Employer shall be required to provide the Local Union or the National Teamster/UPS Committee for Technological Change,
upon written request, any relevant information to the extent available regarding the ​

​

[FONT=Calibri,Bold][FONT=Calibri,Bold]proposed [/FONT][/FONT]technological changes.

5. The Employer will ​

​

[FONT=Calibri,Bold][FONT=Calibri,Bold]shall [/FONT][/FONT]meet with the Local Union, or, if requested, the National Teamster/UPS for Technological Change, promptly
after notification to negotiate regarding the effects of the proposed technological changes.

​

​

[/FONT]​

​

[/FONT][/FONT]​

​

[/FONT][FONT=Calibri,Bold][FONT=Calibri,Bold]Article 55 Section 2. Incentive Plans-Bonus[/FONT]
[/FONT]The Employer shall not put into effect any new plan of an economic nature affecting employees (such as incentive plans, sick leave
schedules, piece rate plans, etc.) without first checking with and securing the approval of the Union. There will be no newly
implemented incentive plans unless approved by the affected employees and the Union. Current plans will remain in effect unless the​

Union decides to terminate the plan after voting the employees in the affected Center.



​

 

[705red]

As you can see some have had this and still have answers while others have not and have good questions. We are getting bits and pieces of info but nothing solid. Now if ups would sit down and explain it fully that might answer the queations, but they have not. So now they will have to sit down and explain it to the union so that we have a full understanding of it.

 

[tieguy]

Two reasons that i filed and both were at the direction of the union, Article 6 clearly states about the use of new technology and article 55 covers "new" bonus plans. Both of these must be negotiated with the union.
[FONT=Calibri,Bold][FONT=Calibri,Bold]Article 6 Section 4. Technological Change[/FONT]

[FONT=Calibri,Bold]1. Technological change shall be defined as any significant change in equipment or materials which results in a significant change in[/FONT][FONT=Calibri,Bold]​

[FONT=Calibri,Bold][FONT=Calibri,Bold]the work of the bargaining unit or diminishes the number of workers in the bargaining unit.[/FONT]

[FONT=Calibri,Bold]2. The Employer and the Union agree to establish a National Teamster/UPS Committee for Technological Change, consisting of an[/FONT][FONT=Calibri,Bold]
[FONT=Calibri,Bold][FONT=Calibri,Bold]equal number of representatives from the Union and UPS. The Committee shall meet in conjunction with the National Grievance[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Calibri,Bold]
[FONT=Calibri,Bold]Panel as necessary to review any planned technological changes covered by this Section.[/FONT]​

[FONT=Calibri,Bold]3. The Employer will [/FONT]

[/FONT]​

[FONT=Calibri,Bold][FONT=Calibri,Bold]shall [/FONT][/FONT]advise the affected Local Unions and the National Teamster/UPS Committee for Technological Change​

[FONT=Calibri,Bold][FONT=Calibri,Bold]Union [/FONT][/FONT]​

of any proposed technological changes at least six (6) months prior to the implementation of such change except where the​

change was later determined in which case the Employer shall provide as much notice as possible.

4. The Employer shall be required to provide the Local Union or the National Teamster/UPS Committee for Technological Change,

upon written request, any relevant information to the extent available regarding the ​

​

[FONT=Calibri,Bold][FONT=Calibri,Bold]proposed [/FONT][/FONT]technological changes.​

5. The Employer will ​

[FONT=Calibri,Bold][FONT=Calibri,Bold]shall [/FONT][/FONT]meet with the Local Union, or, if requested, the National Teamster/UPS for Technological Change, promptly
after notification to negotiate regarding the effects of the proposed technological changes.​

[/FONT]​

[/FONT]​

[/FONT]​

​

[/FONT][FONT=Calibri,Bold][FONT=Calibri,Bold]Article 55 Section 2. Incentive Plans-Bonus[/FONT][/FONT]

The Employer shall not put into effect any new plan of an economic nature affecting employees (such as incentive plans, sick leave

schedules, piece rate plans, etc.) without first checking with and securing the approval of the Union. There will be no newly
implemented incentive plans unless approved by the affected employees and the Union. Current plans will remain in effect unless the​

Union decides to terminate the plan after voting the employees in the affected Center.​

This article was never meant to include software used by management in the performance of their management jobs.

For you to challenge this software your side would have to acknowledge the need for work measurement. Your side has always refused to acknowledge any forms of ups work measurement.

 

[longlunchguy]

I had a time study done on my route 3 years ago. The mgmt person took every step I took all day. By the end of the day she was worn out, and she didn't carry any boxes. I don't think a virtual time study can reflect what we do every day.

 

[JustTired]

JT, you make some really good points here but asking someone to work "down" to a time allowance which may be designed for the average driver is simply unacceptable to me. Drivers who simply work faster and better than others should not be penalized for doing so. Drivers who work in such a manner as to meet established time allowances are performing the job in a satisfactory manner.

Not asking anyone to "work down" to a time allowance. Just stating that it was that way where I previously worked. Unless, of course, you wanted to incur the wrath of the union. Didn't say it was right and I hated it. But, the company was stuck with it and production suffered because of it. In the long run, the employee suffered also because the plant closed and moved to the south where there was no union.

On the other hand, at Ups we have a system where the standards change with the implementation of every little thing. It's sort of like all the add-ons to your car that are suppose to help improve mileage. If you put all of them on, you shouldn't even have to put gas in it. That is the way I feel about the standards. They start out with overly optomistic numbers and keep piling them on. We probably should be done before we even leave the building (Well, not yet but it's getting there).

Basically, what it means is....if you don't recognize standards, the company can make them whatever they want and that is how you will be dispatched. It's a sticky situation. And whichever way you go with it, there will be drawbacks. Unfortunately, it's a lot like congress. If both sides constantly bicker, the ones that get hurt are the taxpayers...I mean workers.

 

[What'dyabringmetoday???]

JT-I think Upstate is simply trying make a point about what a great driver he is. He likes to brag about his excellent work ethic and how fast he can go. He never mentions that he shows up an hour early and sets his truck up on his own time. If everyone set their truck up stop for stop before work, I am sure they would get done faster too. This time study debate will go on long after we are all gone. It has been going on ever since I started here.