What is a "cardinal" Offense?

Discussion in 'UPS Union Issues' started by RealPerson, Sep 19, 2013.

  1. RealPerson

    RealPerson Active Member

    In the hated Article 17(i), which allows management to fire Teamsters for all "other serious offenses," the proposal changes the word "serious" to "cardinal."

    "Some 50,000 UPS Teamsters are covered by the Central Region Supplement, which essentially had a change of one word since the first big rejection three months ago. In the hated Article 17(i), which allows management to fire Teamsters for all "other serious offenses," the proposal changes the word "serious" to "cardinal." Three months to bargain this? hall claims this word will lead to big improvements at the grievance panels."

    In the hated Article 17(i), which allows management to fire Teamsters for all "other serious offenses," the proposal changes the word "serious" to "cardinal." - See more at: Language Available in UPS Supplements | Teamsters for a Democratic Union
  2. UPSGUY72

    UPSGUY72 Well-Known Member

    What did you do that you are worried about getting fired ???
  3. InsideUPS

    InsideUPS Active Member

    RealPerson.....I believe there are seven cardinal sins if I remember correctly from my days in a parochial school:

    Looks like most of us will be gone sooner or later...as I did not make it past Cardinal Sin 3.1...

  4. TimeForChange

    TimeForChange Active Member

    The biggest cardinal offense was in 1995 and 1996 when Old Guard officers decided that they would support the candidacy of someone for the position of Teamsters General President who had never been an International Vice President, had never been a Joint Council officer, had never been a Local Union officer, had never been a Business Agent or organizer, had never been a shop steward, and had never been a Teamster except for a little part time job as a 20 year old or so, and a magically invented, no-show position given to him for the sole purpose of making him eligible to run for General President.
  5. RealPerson

    RealPerson Active Member

    HAHA, I love this....
  6. browned out

    browned out Well-Known Member

    There is no difference. It's garbage. Here is the response from the Teamsters Contract Fact people. Why not remove 17(I) or at the least make it a working discharge. UPS will still abuse this. Weak language again.

    thank you for your question. The Central Region Supplemental Negotiating
    Committee has amended Article 17(i) of the Central Region Supplement by
    substituting "cardinal offenses" for the previous reference to "serious"
    offenses. The term 'cardinal offenses" is utilized in most other supplements
    and has been the subject of decisions from arbitrators and grievance panels. It
    has been interpreted as applying to misconduct that a reasonable and objective
    individual would agree is simply not tolerable in the workplace. The importance
    of this change is that the determination of what is a "cardinal offense" is not
    left to the discretion of the Company. Rather, the misconduct must meet an
    objective standard of intolerable behavior that exceeds anything reasonable in
    the employment context. We believe this will limit the types of cases that the
    Company claims justifies discipline and take the determination of what is merely
    "serious" out of the Company's control.
  7. PiedmontSteward

    PiedmontSteward RTW-4-Less

    Cardinal offenses are typically:

    Dishonesty (stealing or stealing time)
    Drinking alcoholic beverages while on duty (exact language varies supplement-to-supplement, but that's the basic premise)
    Use/possession of illegal drugs while on duty
    Transporting unauthorized passengers in a company vehicle (feeder or package car, unless it's a proven emergency)
    Serious accident because of negligence leading to injury

    These are the only types of offenses that can get you fired without the use of progressive discipline, unless it is with "just cause." You can be terminated with just cause if it's reasonable to believe the action you are or are not performing would cause you to lose your job, ie. taking a :censored2::censored2::censored2::censored2: on your division manager's desk, sucker punching a PT sup, lighting a hardware cart on fire, etc.
  8. Catatonic

    Catatonic Nine Lives

    Shooting the Pope.
  9. Brownslave688

    Brownslave688 You want a toe? I can get you a toe.

    Our BA pretty much admitted there's no difference. They can call anything a "cardinal" offense. Not only did we only "gain" this one word we actually had to give up something else to get it.
  10. Jackburton

    Jackburton Gone Fish'n

    With 5-11, I'd say fans would ask the same thing.
  11. Bubblehead

    Bubblehead My Senior Picture

    We haven't lost anybody, in regards to their employment, as a result of 17i (other serious offenses).
    That being said, many of our members have lost many thou$and$ of dollars in lost wages due to a weak panel system and lack of fortitude by charged employees when the company throws their sheite against the wall to see if it sticks, knowing it wont.
    Back pay is a myth in regards to 17i.
    Return to work, discharge reduced to suspension, time served is the reality.
    Cardinal?Serious?, it will make no difference in the world of UPS.
    It's a silly, pile on, bogus charge that is interpreted loosely and it wont change until 17i is completely eliminated or specifically defined.
    ​What idiot let it in the first place?
  12. Brownslave688

    Brownslave688 You want a toe? I can get you a toe.

    yeah I love hearing about all this back pay stuff. I've had my BA tell me right to my face well u can take the 1 day suspension and head back to work or fight for back pay which means u could be out for awhile. Let's see I'll take the one day suspension. I've never heard of anyone getting back pay in my neck of the woods.
  13. Wally

    Wally BrownCafe Innovator & King of Puns

    Saint Louis is in first in the central, so I would say their Cardinal offense is pretty good.
  14. 104Feeder

    104Feeder Phoenix Feeder

    Our cardinal offenses have almost always been:
    1. proven dishonesty (proven was added a few contracts ago)
    2. drinking of alcoholic beverages while on duty.
    3. recklessness resulting in a serious accident while on duty.
    4. the carrying of unauthorized passengers.
    5. unprovoked assault on an employee or a supervisory employee while on duty. (so let them provoke you and get a witness)
    6. selling, transporting, or use of illegal narcotics while in the employment of the Employer. (probably could get rid of a lot of part timers with this one)
    ​7. willful, wanton, or malicious damage to the Employers property.
  15. RealPerson

    RealPerson Active Member

    That list, is it not already in your contract for grounds for termination?

    Fairly sure that list is.
  16. Brownslave688

    Brownslave688 You want a toe? I can get you a toe.

    The ke word in 17i is other. It says other cardinal offenses. This would imply its on top of the known cardinal offenses. Here is how the conversation will go.

    center manager: we are taking Johnny out of service he had 15 missed businesses yesterday.

    Steward: so your callin that a cardinal offense?

    center manager: yep
  17. 104Feeder

    104Feeder Phoenix Feeder

    Yes Article 28, Sec 2(a) of our Western supplement, and repeated in our Riders.
  18. 104Feeder

    104Feeder Phoenix Feeder

    I think it would rely on what the intent of that language was, and I would bet that it is intended to follow roughly those cardinal sins I listed. Do you not have those or similar already in your Supplement?
    I'm sure a center manager somewhere would try to interpret 'cardinal' as he saw fit but if it gets shot down a few times with back pay that would stop. A center manager looks pretty weak when most everyone he marches out the gate is back in short order.
  19. InsideUPS

    InsideUPS Active Member

    Hoaxster.....just to let you know....I did attend Catholic school and I know for a fact that shooting the Pope would fall under the category of a "Mortal Sin".... As you may know...to become the Pope you must first be a Cardinal.....so perhaps that is where some of your confusion may have come from.

    Mortal sin - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
  20. was you an alter boy??...hope not