Massive retirements in 2013?

[UpstateNYUPSer(Ret)]

[/U]

Is this their way of saying that IE is out of touch with reality?
btw not many people know this.

Not many people know this because this is not the reality in most centers. If our PDS decides that the plan put in place is not going to work he must get "permission" from the DM to change the plan. The DM has 10 centers under his watch and thus has to deal with 10 PDS's with varying degrees of experience. The PDS had best have his ducks in a row before making the request and must be able to answer for him/herself if the request is approved and the center does not meet their numbers.

 

[Catatonic]

Not many people know this because this is not the reality in most centers. If our PDS decides that the plan put in place is not going to work he must get "permission" from the DM to change the plan. The DM has 10 centers under his watch and thus has to deal with 10 PDS's with varying degrees of experience. The PDS had best have his ducks in a row before making the request and must be able to answer for him/herself if the request is approved and the center does not meet their numbers.

I guess a point of clarification is needed:

District Package Delivery and Pickup Operations management at UPS is:

District Manager
Operations Manager
Division Manager
Center Manager
On-Road Sups

 

[curiousbrain]

IEs primary responsibility from the time that George Smith put it in place some 80 years ago is the Planning portion of PLOC.
IE puts together a plan and Operations Management decides whether to change it or not.
That is the way it actually works regardless of what the ill-informed or uninformed broken records say on here.
P-man normally covers this but he has not been on lately.

Come on; I deal with IE's plan on a daily basis, and 90% of the time the PDS is losing their mind because the PkgPlan is total nonsense, based on historical days that are not reflective of the actual reality. Change the plan? I sit on the "call" every day, and when the numbers are missed, you have to turn the volume down because the screaming is so loud.

Cut the soup, start the shift, and after an hour or two the Forecast has jumped 20%; but stay on the plan! Sure, we'll smash what should have been a 175 SPC into what is now a 180 SPC. The numbers grow during the shift, that is the primary reason why the PKG plans are crap.

In extremely rare circumstances when the plan is so far off of reality, the PDS will say "the hell with it" and run what they think is right, but that is the exception, not the rule.

But, I'm [ill/un]informed.

 

[Catatonic]

Come on; I deal with IE's plan on a daily basis, and 90% of the time the PDS is losing their mind because the PkgPlan is total nonsense, based on historical days that are not reflective of the actual reality. Change the plan? I sit on the "call" every day, and when the numbers are missed, you have to turn the volume down because the screaming is so loud.

Cut the soup, start the shift, and after an hour or two the Forecast has jumped 20%; but stay on the plan! Sure, we'll smash what should have been a 175 SPC into what is now a 180 SPC. The numbers grow during the shift, that is the primary reason why the PKG plans are crap.

In extremely rare circumstances when the plan is so far off of reality, the PDS will say "the hell with it" and run what they think is right, but that is the exception, not the rule.

But, I'm [ill/un]informed.

Try reading post #122.

I am only talking about whether IE makes the decision or whether Operations makes the decision on final dispatch.

I actually talked to an ex-Management Committee level person in charge of Operations for half the country.
I will not use the words he used but it was clear that Operations still ran Operations.
I was in IE and I understand the system - especially accountability.
I understand how you and others at he field level look at the Plan that comes down that is provided by IE applications and consequently place the blame on IE.
In reality, it is weak Operations management that goes along with the IE developed plan (actually a computer system's plan).
These Risk Adverse management people know there is less risk to them personally if they don't challenge or change the IE plan.
If they simply follow the IE Plan, they have less accountability for the results.

I don't normally answer these types of questions but Pman has abdicated his position of authority by responding to Dispatch.
I do so for you because you are new to UPS and young and this may give you insight to why things happen in the centers.
I don't bother with Soberups because he has a closed mind on this subject and it conflicts with his mantras. Ummmmmm...Ummmmmm...Ummmmmmm...

 

[curiousbrain]

Try reading post #122.

I am only talking about whether IE makes the decision or whether Operations makes the decision on final dispatch.

I actually talked to an ex-Management Committee level person in charge of Operations for half the country.
I will not use the words he used but it was clear that Operations still ran Operations.
I was in IE and I understand the system - especially accountability.
I understand how you and others at he field level look at the Plan that comes down that is provided by IE applications and consequently place the blame on IE.
In reality, it is weak Operations management that goes along with the IE developed plan (actually a computer system's plan).
These Risk Adverse management people know there is less risk to them personally if they don't challenge or change the IE plan.
If they simply follow the IE Plan, they have less accountability for the results.

I don't normally answer these types of questions but Pman has abdicated his position of authority by responding to Dispatch.
I do so for you because you are new to UPS and young and this may give you insight to why things happen in the centers.
I don't bother with Soberups because he has a closed mind on this subject and it conflicts with his mantras. Ummmmmm...Ummmmmm...Ummmmmmm...

Your insight is appreciated, as I am in a small part of the machine that is UPS; and to think that I am privy to all the details/realities of how it works would be foolhardy.

In my small slice of heaven, it is not clear that Operations still runs Operations; when we miss SPC (or other metric), it is a massive concern where people have to defend their jobs; IE, in so far as we can tell, does not have to defend to us (the people who execute the plan) why the plan to be executed was wrong. Now, don't misunderstand me, I understand a little "offness" here and there is to be expected; when the plan is wrong we have to defend our jobs - but when the plan is wrong and IE doesn't have to defend theirs, there is an acidic effect on morale, effort, and "understanding".

When I'm full-time, and have more exposure to the next echelon of how things really work, I will undoubtedly see things differently. Such is the nature of things, I suppose.

 

[Catatonic]

Your insight is appreciated, as I am in a small part of the machine that is UPS; and to think that I am privy to all the details/realities of how it works would be foolhardy.

In my small slice of heaven, it is not clear that Operations still runs Operations; when we miss SPC (or other metric), it is a massive concern where people have to defend their jobs; IE, in so far as we can tell, does not have to defend to us (the people who execute the plan) why the plan to be executed was wrong. Now, don't misunderstand me, I understand a little "offness" here and there is to be expected; when the plan is wrong we have to defend our jobs - but when the plan is wrong and IE doesn't have to defend theirs, there is an acidic effect on morale, effort, and "understanding".

When I'm full-time, and have more exposure to the next echelon of how things really work, I will undoubtedly see things differently. Such is the nature of things, I suppose.

That should alert you that something is amiss in the underlying assumption that IE runs things and makes the final decision.

If IE was really the big kahuna, IE would be held accountable for the results.

Management 101 - Authority has to be given before a person can be held responsible.
If you consider the Teamsters, they fight every effort to give authority to Union hourly people because they understand this basic premise.
If management has to tell an hourly what to do then the hourly can be held accountable for the execution of the directive.
You see this approach positioned and repeated hundreds of times a day on this site.

Now, back to the original discussion:
IE develops a plan.
Operations has the authority to change it if they want to take the responsibility for the results.
It's easier to just take the IE plan and not assume responsibility and your job is more secure.
The above is the nemesis of publicly owned corporations.
The entire management structure is based on averting risks - not an official systemic policy but a developed systemic survival tactic. PS - Bubblehead will not understand this! LOL

 

[curiousbrain]

That should alert you that something is amiss in the underlying assumption that IE runs things and makes the final decision.

If IE was really the big kahuna, IE would be held accountable for the results.

Management 101 - Authority has to be given before a person can be held responsible.
If you consider the Teamsters, they fight every effort to give authority to Union hourly people because they understand this basic premise.
If management has to tell an hourly what to do then the hourly can be held accountable for the execution of the directive.
You see this approach positioned and repeated hundreds of times a day on this site.

Now, back to the original discussion:
IE develops a plan.
Operations has the authority to change it if they want to take the responsibility for the results.
It's easier to just take the IE plan and not assume responsibility and your job is more secure.
The above is the nemesis of publicly owned corporations.
The entire management structure is based on averting risks - not an official systemic policy but a developed systemic survival tactic. PS - Bubblehead will not understand this! LOL

I'm not disagreeing with you, but given what I put in bold in the quote ... aren't you essentially asking Operations people to put their jobs on the line to make up for the shortcomings of computer/IE plans?

That would be great, in theory; except that, when Operations does change the plan, the PkgPlan doesn't change, and you still missed what your goal was - because, maybe, you added a route. So, yes, Operations adjusted to changing conditions and put in place a better plan, but that, by necessity, adjusts the cost per package delivered, which is a big problem, and now means you have to spend the next five hours justifying your job.

I think that, in the spirit of keeping this somewhat contained, you are operating with a level of knowledge that I am not; it is possible (if not presumable) that I am beating my head against a wall that I don't understand or even know exists, due to ignorance on my own part.

I do appreciate the insight, though.

 

[sortaisle]

My favorite metric where I work in how you can meet your SPOHR but still be over allowed on your route. I love it when that happens.

 

[Catatonic]

I'm not disagreeing with you, but given what I put in bold in the quote ... aren't you essentially asking Operations people to put their jobs on the line to make up for the shortcomings of computer/IE plans?

That would be great, in theory; except that, when Operations does change the plan, the PkgPlan doesn't change, and you still missed what your goal was - because, maybe, you added a route. So, yes, Operations adjusted to changing conditions and put in place a better plan, but that, by necessity, adjusts the cost per package delivered, which is a big problem, and now means you have to spend the next five hours justifying your job.

I think that, in the spirit of keeping this somewhat contained, you are operating with a level of knowledge that I am not; it is possible (if not presumable) that I am beating my head against a wall that I don't understand or even know exists, due to ignorance on my own part.

I do appreciate the insight, though.

I don't disagree with what you are saying.
My point is that the Ops Mgt has the final say.
There are UPS Centers where all these problems do not exist.
They existed in the past but a strong mgt team "fixed" the problems and they are allowed to change the IE produced plan with their own plans which many times are almost identical.

And I appreciate your insight as well.

 

[cosmo1]

These Risk Adverse management people know there is less risk to them personally if they don't challenge or change the IE plan.
If they simply follow the IE Plan, they have less accountability for the results.

Well, there's your problem.

 

[cosmo1]

Operations has the authority to change it if they want to take the responsibility for the results.
It's easier to just take the IE plan and not assume responsibility and your job is more secure.

Which seems to be the status quo.

 

[beentheredonethat]

I'm not disagreeing with you, but given what I put in bold in the quote ... aren't you essentially asking Operations people to put their jobs on the line to make up for the shortcomings of computer/IE plans?

That would be great, in theory; except that, when Operations does change the plan, the PkgPlan doesn't change, and you still missed what your goal was - because, maybe, you added a route. So, yes, Operations adjusted to changing conditions and put in place a better plan, but that, by necessity, adjusts the cost per package delivered, which is a big problem, and now means you have to spend the next five hours justifying your job.

I think that, in the spirit of keeping this somewhat contained, you are operating with a level of knowledge that I am not; it is possible (if not presumable) that I am beating my head against a wall that I don't understand or even know exists, due to ignorance on my own part.

I do appreciate the insight, though.

Keep in mind, the big metric is SPC. So to make the math easy let's assume a goal of 100 spc, and the IE plan projects out 2000 stops, therefore the IE plan has 20 drivers. Well if the dispatch supv that day sees that he will have 2100 stops, he can and should dispatch a 21st driver to keep the spc metric going and hit the 100 spc. The problem is that if he\she ends up with only 2020 stops and has 21 drivers then that center will end up well below their 100 spc plan. That's when the operations people get in trouble for going below the IE plan.

Also keep in mind, when I was in IE, we had to do the plans starting a year early and we got to tweak them as new data became available. We had to stop editing the plans and have them finalized over a week early so operations had time to take the plans and their staffing figures to help them in working with their operating plans. If a large storm hits the midwest which delays volume from getting to us we couldn't change those plans. When I did plans for my centers 95% of the time I was within 5% for delv vol and stops, and 80% of the time I was within 2% for volume and stops each day. The same dispatch supvs who complained about my projections on volume when they did veer from the plans since they thought it would be heavy that day. (The day when they had the load %'s etc) usually where wrong when they veered from plan. Of course, they had an excuse why on the day of the plan they could be wrong, but I was bad since weeks out I couldn't be 100% perfect.

 

[beentheredonethat]

My favorite metric where I work in how you can meet your SPOHR but still be over allowed on your route. I love it when that happens.

These are two different numbers. Your SPORH goal should be from a lock in ride where that SPORH goal reflects your demonstrated SPORH with an on car. The ov\un is based on the time study for the route that day. Oftentimes I've seen the lock in ride show a SPORH of a driver where on those days he wasn't scratch.

 

[reign77]

Drivers are hanging on to the thought of more pension| buyout . Once the contract is passed with out either than u will see retirements come thru happens every contract

 

[ups1990]

In our center, taking our seniority list into consideration, the period between 2017 and 2022 has the potential for a massive retirement wave. Me included.

 

[Inthegame]

Not many people know this because this is not the reality in most centers. If our PDS decides that the plan put in place is not going to work he must get "permission" from the DM to change the plan. The DM has 10 centers under his watch and thus has to deal with 10 PDS's with varying degrees of experience. The PDS had best have his ducks in a row before making the request and must be able to answer for him/herself if the request is approved and the center does not meet their numbers.

AND WHAT HAS THIS TO DO WITH MASSIVE RETIREMENTS, KIND SIR???
See how easy one can slide off the post...

 

[UpstateNYUPSer(Ret)]

AND WHAT HAS THIS TO DO WITH MASSIVE RETIREMENTS, KIND SIR???
See how easy one can slide off the post...

I'm not sure which is worse---necroposting or quoting out of context. In this case you have quoted me out of context. My post was in response to a post about the role IE plays in package operations, more specifically the dispatch plan.

 

[Inthegame]

I'm not sure which is worse---necroposting or quoting out of context. In this case you have quoted me out of context. My post was in response to a post about the role IE plays in package operations, more specifically the dispatch plan.

Really Dave, I "quoted" your post and you accuse me of "quoting you out of context"? Not sure how that works. Don't be so defensive , I was having a little fun. Remember fun. I really don't give a rats patoot where any post go but some, including a fellow named Upstate...seem to get real irritated when posts go off topic.
Sorry for the interruption. I'll crawl back in my somber hole now.

 

[brownmonster]

We've had massive retirements since 97. About 35 drivers gone.

 

[Catatonic]

Really Dave, I "quoted" your post and you accuse me of "quoting you out of context"? Not sure how that works. Don't be so defensive , I was having a little fun. Remember fun. I really don't give a rats patoot where any post go but some, including a fellow named Upstate...seem to get real irritated when posts go off topic.
Sorry for the interruption. I'll crawl back in my somber hole now.

In case you did not know, Upstate and Rod work on the weekends in the Catskills in the play "Grumpy Old Men".
They just act naturally.