Our Fantastic Healthcare

59 Dano

I just want to make friends!
My situation no. A 55 year old American making 30K having to find a way to pay for his daughter heart surgery...I think he would.

In that case the American gets the surgery in America by a better doctor in a nicer hospital than in Cuba. The hospital will bug him for the money until he provides sufficient proof that he can't pay. At that point the hospital will likely settle with him and set up some type of repayment plan. If not, he can file bankruptcy on that amount.

Cuban care? No thanks.
 

fatboy33

Well-Known Member
In that case the American gets the surgery in America by a better doctor in a nicer hospital than in Cuba. The hospital will bug him for the money until he provides sufficient proof that he can't pay. At that point the hospital will likely settle with him and set up some type of repayment plan. If not, he can file bankruptcy on that amount.

Cuban care? No thanks.
How do you know, better doctors? I can tell you about 100,000 people die in American hospitals do to infections acquired while in hospital. It makes me laugh when I hear "some people", who know nothing to very little about a country other that theirs, talk about how much better America is that the other. I know a Cuban/American, Medical director, he says Cuban medicine is on par with any 1st world countries and if allowed to leave, they'd have no problems making the transition to American medicine. America turns people away from its hospitals if they have no means to pay. Those county hospitals are where they sit and wait hoping to get care from a doctor who just squeaked by the MCAT. Give them pills until their illness is too far gone. Then give them treatment that will make the last few months of their lives not even worth living. If Castro was being treated in the states, he'd probably be dead already. Not say that's a bad thing, him being dead that is.
 

59 Dano

I just want to make friends!
How do you know, better doctors?

Would you like to make the argument that a small, quasi-Third World nation with such limited resources can adequately train and supply their doctors to the degree that they are indistinguishable from First World docs?
 

vantexan

Well-Known Member
How do you know, better doctors? I can tell you about 100,000 people die in American hospitals do to infections acquired while in hospital. It makes me laugh when I hear "some people", who know nothing to very little about a country other that theirs, talk about how much better America is that the other. I know a Cuban/American, Medical director, he says Cuban medicine is on par with any 1st world countries and if allowed to leave, they'd have no problems making the transition to American medicine. America turns people away from its hospitals if they have no means to pay. Those county hospitals are where they sit and wait hoping to get care from a doctor who just squeaked by the MCAT. Give them pills until their illness is too far gone. Then give them treatment that will make the last few months of their lives not even worth living. If Castro was being treated in the states, he'd probably be dead already. Not say that's a bad thing, him being dead that is.
Well I do know a little about Cuba. While the U.S. had an embargo on Cuba, other countries did not. Did they trade with those countries and provide a better life for their people? No, they stuck to their communist principles. Money made through tourism goes to the country's elite and military. The average Cuban has no avenue to better his life, just takes what he's given and keeps his mouth shut if he knows what's good for him. Idiots in this country wear Che Guevara t-shirts and don't even know about the brutality that fanatic unleashed on the Cubans. While capitalism certainly isn't perfect communism has never worked and it's milder cousin socialism only works to a point. And yet socialists in this country think they'll get it right. Meanwhile our debt due mostly to socialist ideas has been run up dangerously close to unsustainable levels. People are kidding themselves thinking we can continue down this path. Your children need an economy that'll provide them a future through hard work and achievement, not from government handouts.
 

slowdriver

Well-Known Member
Well I do know a little about Cuba. While the U.S. had an embargo on Cuba, other countries did not. Did they trade with those countries and provide a better life for their people? No, they stuck to their communist principles. Money made through tourism goes to the country's elite and military. The average Cuban has no avenue to better his life, just takes what he's given and keeps his mouth shut if he knows what's good for him. Idiots in this country wear Che Guevara t-shirts and don't even know about the brutality that fanatic unleashed on the Cubans. While capitalism certainly isn't perfect communism has never worked and it's milder cousin socialism only works to a point. And yet socialists in this country think they'll get it right. Meanwhile our debt due mostly to socialist ideas has been run up dangerously close to unsustainable levels. People are kidding themselves thinking we can continue down this path. Your children need an economy that'll provide them a future through hard work and achievement, not from government handouts.
As jobs are sent overseas, and banks got bailed out adding trillions in debt, not to mention the trillions blown on endless wars we never voted for, you blame the poor, makes sense.

Capitalism doesn't exist in the united states. It is a form of corporate fascism.
 
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MrFedEx

Engorged Member
As jobs are sent overseas, and banks got bailed out adding trillions in debt, not to mention the trillions blown on endless wars we never voted for, you blame the poor, makes sense.

Capitalism doesn't exist in the united states. It is a form of corporate fascism.

Van has been listening to Lars Larson and Michael Medved too much lately. I think both had the author on who had written the book about the Communist abduction of his father many years ago and how the current regime is the same type of ruthless, Che-type guerilla terrorist thugs of 40 years ago.

Makes great ratings for GOP types.
 

vantexan

Well-Known Member
As jobs are sent overseas, and banks got bailed out adding trillions in debt, not to mention the trillions blown on endless wars we never voted for, you blame the poor, makes sense.

Capitalism doesn't exist in the united states. It is a form of corporate fascism.
Did I blame the poor? The national debt has doubled under Obama and what have we gotten for it? Build an economy that provides jobs and stop worrying about how so and so has more than me, not fair, yada yada yada.
 

vantexan

Well-Known Member
Van has been listening to Lars Larson and Michael Medved too much lately. I think both had the author on who had written the book about the Communist abduction of his father many years ago and how the current regime is the same type of ruthless, Che-type guerilla terrorist thugs of 40 years ago.

Makes great ratings for GOP types.
Right, Cuba is a democracy with free elections. The average Cuban can leave anytime he likes, no questions asked. People are free to protest against the government. No one is in jail for dissent. Gotcha.
 

slowdriver

Well-Known Member
Did I blame the poor? The national debt has doubled under Obama and what have we gotten for it? Build an economy that provides jobs and stop worrying about how so and so has more than me, not fair, yada yada yada.
Keep in mind it's not obama's debt, only the house of reps can create spending bills. Look at Paul Ryan's(republican) enormous multi-trillion dollar spending bill that was quickly signed by obama(democrat). They're in it together doing what benefits the political donors. Don't get so caught up in the right vs left thing it's all BS that's why sanders and <cough cough> trump are so popular, people are beginning to see through the charade, I still have hope there actually is a choice and they are legit and not just as george carlin would say the illusion of choice.
 
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vantexan

Well-Known Member
Keep in mind it's not obama's debt, only the house of reps can create spending bills. Look at Paul Ryan's(republican) enormous multi-trillion dollar spending bill that was quickly signed by obama(democrat). They're in it together doing what benefits the political donors. Don't get so caught up in the right vs left thing it's all BS that's why sanders and <cough cough> trump are so popular, people are beginning to see through the charade, I still have hope there actually is a choice and they are legit and not just as george carlin would say the illusion of choice.
Half of the run up occurred in Obama's first two years. The Repubs gaining control of the House in 2010 slowed it down a bit, but keep in mind that the House of Reps doesn't spend the money, only provides the funds. But you are right, the current leadership is so afraid of losing elections that it gave the Administration all it wanted in the last spending bill. People really aren't seeing through anything, they're being told what they want to hear by populist demagogues. Sanders is promising all kinds of stuff he can't deliver on, and Trump is playing on fears without explaining much in actual policy. We can't spend our way into a better economy. Imagine if you ran up 10's of thousands on your credit cards. Might have been fun while it happened but sooner or later you have to face the music. Any candidate talking about trillions more in spending isn't facing the reality of our situation.
 

slowdriver

Well-Known Member
Half of the run up occurred in Obama's first two years. The Repubs gaining control of the House in 2010 slowed it down a bit, but keep in mind that the House of Reps doesn't spend the money, only provides the funds. But you are right, the current leadership is so afraid of losing elections that it gave the Administration all it wanted in the last spending bill. People really aren't seeing through anything, they're being told what they want to hear by populist demagogues. Sanders is promising all kinds of stuff he can't deliver on, and Trump is playing on fears without explaining much in actual policy. We can't spend our way into a better economy. Imagine if you ran up 10's of thousands on your credit cards. Might have been fun while it happened but sooner or later you have to face the music. Any candidate talking about trillions more in spending isn't facing the reality of our situation.
When the federal reserve can print the money to buy us treasuries, or persuade giant banks to hold excess reserves in us treasuries by paying them a premium, there is no limit to how much can be conjured up and spent. Japan is on qe 9 or something and no plan to slow. Europe is expanding theirs as well. We use the interest on the feds 4 trillion balance sheet to buy more treasuries or direct at congress for spending. I agree it's unsustainable and will fail at some point, but there's no way out unless we default(cut gov spending, take tax revenue with it since most jobs/corporations depend on said gov money), inflate it away, or keep the game going as long as possible.

John meynard keynes was well known for his theory of aggregate demand, when a government spends more money the gdp and tax revenue increases correspondingly if you start cutting gov spending the gdp begins decreasing(depression) there's no way out..

The national debt will increase forever in perpetuity, and will never be paid off, no country since the dawn of time has paid thier debt off, they can only default and start over with a new curency. It's the reason behind the gold standard that has long since been abandoned.
 

fatboy33

Well-Known Member
As jobs are sent overseas, and banks got bailed out adding trillions in debt, not to mention the trillions blown on endless wars we never voted for, you blame the poor, makes sense.

Capitalism doesn't exist in the united states. It is a form of corporate fascism.
Yes, What are all these Handouts going to the poor? EBT? A war is started under Jeb's brother on the wrong country and the country has been bleeding money ever since. Thank god Dick Cheney didn't go broke over it. How much money did China give the States when it needed a bailout? I know they took our jobs and we, the tax payers, were the ones left to bailout Wall St. and the car manufactures, who still had the nerve to hand out huge bonuses to it's Upper level employees. The middle class, based on inflation, is making less than they did 40 years ago. If Cubans may not have an Avenue to a better(richer is what you really mean)life, then an American has a very narrow path to a richer life, if he/she isn't born into some level of wealth.
I'll bet Joe the plummer is in more debt than all the Cubans on the island combined.
 
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fatboy33

Well-Known Member
When the federal reserve can print the money to buy us treasuries, or persuade giant banks to hold excess reserves in us treasuries by paying them a premium, there is no limit to how much can be conjured up and spent. Japan is on qe 9 or something and no plan to slow. Europe is expanding theirs as well. We use the interest on the feds 4 trillion balance sheet to buy more treasuries or direct at congress for spending. I agree it's unsustainable and will fail at some point, but there's no way out unless we default(cut gov spending, take tax revenue with it since most jobs/corporations depend on said gov money), inflate it away, or keep the game going as long as possible.

John meynard keynes was well known for his theory of aggregate demand, when a government spends more money the gdp and tax revenue increases correspondingly if you start cutting gov spending the gdp begins decreasing(depression) there's no way out..

The national debt will increase forever in perpetuity, and will never be paid off, no country since the dawn of time has paid thier debt off, they can only default and start over with a new curency. It's the reason behind the gold standard that has long since been abandoned.
Reps love war but don't want to pay for them as in raising taxes. Raising taxes is unavoidable, if we expect to low the National debt anytime soon. I only hope Mitt Romney can live is same lifestyle when he has to pay more that 10 percent tax rate.
 

vantexan

Well-Known Member
Reps love war but don't want to pay for them as in raising taxes. Raising taxes is unavoidable, if we expect to low the National debt anytime soon. I only hope Mitt Romney can live is same lifestyle when he has to pay more that 10 percent tax rate.
Presidents who got us into WWI, WWII, Korea, and Vietnam were all Democrats. And raising taxes is inevitable due to runaway spending. But increased government revenue has always happened in strong economies. We need responsible leadership however.
 

vantexan

Well-Known Member
Yes, What are all these Handouts going to the poor? EBT? A war is started under Jeb's brother on the wrong country and the country has been bleeding money ever since. Thank god Dick Cheney didn't go broke over it. How much money did China give the States when it needed a bailout? I know they took our jobs and we, the tax payers, were the ones left to bailout Wall St. and the car manufactures, who still had the nerve to hand out huge bonuses to it's Upper level employees. The middle class, based on inflation, is making less than they did 40 years ago. If Cubans may not have an Avenue to a better(richer is what you really mean)life, then an American has a very narrow path to a richer life, if he/she isn't born into some level of wealth.
I'll bet Joe the plummer is in more debt than all the Cubans on the island combined.
And I bet if you had the same lifestyle as an average Cuban you'd scream bloody murder. Why do I think that? Your average Democrat is always going off about how much the rich have. You envy them. If you traded your corporate bosses for the government bosses in Cuba you wouldn't be free to openly criticize them. And you can't just quit like you can in the States and do something else. Be careful what you wish for.
 

Wally

BrownCafe Innovator & King of Puns
Reps love war but don't want to pay for them as in raising taxes. Raising taxes is unavoidable, if we expect to low the National debt anytime soon. I only hope Mitt Romney can live is same lifestyle when he has to pay more that 10 percent tax rate.
We can't tax our way out of this hole. What's going to happen, who knows? Major cuts are coming sooner or later. Of course, you try freeze spending while cutting zero and Democrats scream that you want dirty water and are starving children, etc, so I think it's going to be later.
 

vantexan

Well-Known Member
When the federal reserve can print the money to buy us treasuries, or persuade giant banks to hold excess reserves in us treasuries by paying them a premium, there is no limit to how much can be conjured up and spent. Japan is on qe 9 or something and no plan to slow. Europe is expanding theirs as well. We use the interest on the feds 4 trillion balance sheet to buy more treasuries or direct at congress for spending. I agree it's unsustainable and will fail at some point, but there's no way out unless we default(cut gov spending, take tax revenue with it since most jobs/corporations depend on said gov money), inflate it away, or keep the game going as long as possible.

John meynard keynes was well known for his theory of aggregate demand, when a government spends more money the gdp and tax revenue increases correspondingly if you start cutting gov spending the gdp begins decreasing(depression) there's no way out..

The national debt will increase forever in perpetuity, and will never be paid off, no country since the dawn of time has paid thier debt off, they can only default and start over with a new curency. It's the reason behind the gold standard that has long since been abandoned.
Where you are wrong is other governments are bitching about buying our bonds and being paid back in printed, inflated money. They're suggesting creating an alternative to the American Dollar as the world's reserve currency, which would really hurt us. So that avenue is quickly closing down. The problem is we are spending way beyond our means, like Greece. We aren't as bad off as they are yet, but we aren't the world's industrial power like we were in the 50's either. We have to control our spending, and the best way to pay down our debt is to make the State's as business friendly as possible. That would get investment from around the world and create jobs. We won't pay the debt off, but with a good economy we can reduce it's affect on our Federal budget. Otherwise servicing the debt becomes an ever increasing part of the budget, and the tax burden to pay it will become very high(i.e. unsustainable)
 

59 Dano

I just want to make friends!
John meynard keynes was well known for his theory of aggregate demand, when a government spends more money the gdp and tax revenue increases correspondingly if you start cutting gov spending the gdp begins decreasing(depression) there's no way out..

Which is why no one with a brain has any faith in Keynesian economics.
 

slowdriver

Well-Known Member
Where you are wrong is other governments are bitching about buying our bonds and being paid back in printed, inflated money. They're suggesting creating an alternative to the American Dollar as the world's reserve currency, which would really hurt us. So that avenue is quickly closing down. The problem is we are spending way beyond our means, like Greece. We aren't as bad off as they are yet, but we aren't the world's industrial power like we were in the 50's either. We have to control our spending, and the best way to pay down our debt is to make the State's as business friendly as possible. That would get investment from around the world and create jobs. We won't pay the debt off, but with a good economy we can reduce it's affect on our Federal budget. Otherwise servicing the debt becomes an ever increasing part of the budget, and the tax burden to pay it will become very high(i.e. unsustainable)
Look I know we've been round and round on this before, we agree on a very basic level just in different ways, that's why there is such a divide in this country because there is no right answer. Either way it goes there will be some serious economic pain sooner or later.

I would like business to grow, but we are a service based economy how many barista's, truck drivers and teachers can exist, with very little population growth? Bringing back manufacturing won't help because we can't compete with 3rd world labor without becoming a 3rd world country ourselves.

Look what happened to the windfall from the drop in interest rates, companies issued bonds and bought back stock taking advantage of the cheap money. Cut corporate tax rates and that windfall will flow into stock buybacks as well. The market is saturated with service jobs, that's why there is very little capital expenditure in the united states.
 

59 Dano

I just want to make friends!
I would like business to grow, but we are a service based economy how many barista's, truck drivers and teachers can exist, with very little population growth? Bringing back manufacturing won't help because we can't compete with 3rd world labor without becoming a 3rd world country ourselves.

You can compete with Third World manufacturing labor and win. This area is a hotbed of manufacturing growth right now.

"Manufacturing" is a diverse sector of the economy. You can't compete with developing nations when it comes to paying some guy to stand at a machine all day and push a button or pull a lever every time a part comes down the line. Anyone can do that, and that's why it makes no sense to pay an American $16/hour with decent benefits to do what some clown who can't read can do just as well and for a fraction of the cost.

The factory jobs coming to this area are unlike those most of us have ever known. The really good ones require that you have some type of degree. Ninety-nine percent of the time, it's a technical degree of some type or relevant experience with some kind of technical certification. Sometimes, it's all of the above. The work is performed on new, modern, state-of-the-art equipment.

The remaining factory jobs that are cropping up don't have such stringent requirements and don't pay as well, but the pay isn't bad. Probably the main thing keeping those jobs from going elsewhere is the proximity to the customers and the ability to stop on a dime and make changes to the products.

No one realizes this, but our manufacturing output keeps growing and growing.
 
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