Sitting Arbitrator

[Bloodybrown]

I just want to make a few comments about your words and you can tell me whos not being fair.

The burden of proof in a discipline case lies solely on the company. And in most cases we are at the mercy of ups when it comes to handing over information that the union thinks will help its defense. For years now we have been unable to get all of the info. So now we have started to request the info 3 times over a respectable period of time.

When we do not receive this info we are now filing ulp's against the company.

In the first case none of the witnesses were allowed to hear other testify. The union had asked for a copy of all the moves and messages that were sent to this employee to show that he had lost his links through out these several days. Company never handed this over.

So in a cross exam of the manager when he was asked "how come he didnt turn over this info" He replied he did turn it over to labor and that it should be in the packet that we are viewing.

Well guess what? It wasnt!
The arbitrator took notice on this.

SO please explain to me bloody how the union is the one being unreasonable! A 32 year driver whos own report would have shown that he had problems with his shift com was terminated for theft of time! Whos really guilty of being dishonest here?

Red,
You are at an advantage, you know I don't have the facts of these cases, I agree that the union should have everything the company has and all info should be shared by both sides. One case got back pay the other two got time served which sounds like its what they deserved. I also think the panel will never see them back there for the same reason or they will not be as fortunate(they learn for thier mistakes). I think you will have cases in March if employee's violate the contract and deserve to be there. If you think winning one of 3 cases will deter the company from administering discipline if needed, your dead wrong. I do believe what you have in place now is much better than what you had. You will also see the company invest in educating management on how this process works. They will be better at gathering evidence and presenting cases as you have stated has been done by the union. I still think the way the rest of the country works the labor panels is better.

P.S. I have not hard do you have a new DM yet??

 

[705red]

Red,
You are at an advantage, you know I don't have the facts of these cases, I agree that the union should have everything the company has and all info should be shared by both sides.

I was just using this case as an example, this is what we have to go through for each and every grievance. Im actually working at home today calling grievants in an attempt to gather any and all information for my outstanding grievances because the company wont share the info.

Bloody i have no problem admitting when i am or a grievant is wrong! I have withdrawn grievances and signed off on suspensions and terminations if they fit the language/crime and punishment fit the crime.

Im up against people that try to and nickel and dime you to death and can not admit that their management violated the contract.

If its a violation live with it, pay it and move on ensuring that it doesnt happen again.


One case got back pay the other two got time served which sounds like its what they deserved. I also think the panel will never see them back there for the same reason or they will not be as fortunate(they learn for thier mistakes).

Bloody this is not the proper use of progressive discipline. By going right to a termination the company is skipping the steps. What a grievant usually takes out of this is that the union got them their job back (back pay or not). Does it correct their behavior? I hope so, but i also believe they should have never been fired!


I think you will have cases in March if employee's violate the contract and deserve to be there. If you think winning one of 3 cases will deter the company from administering discipline if needed, your dead wrong.

In January not one case was heard and in february only 3 cases when in the past its been 8 to 10 cases a month. This process has already cut down on wrongful terminations. If an employee is terminated and deserves the termination we will not bring it to panel. In my opinion all 3 cases were a win, because they are put back to work with minimal losses, when in the past they would have suffered for 18 months, losing their homes, medical and in some cases their family.

I do believe what you have in place now is much better than what you had. You will also see the company invest in educating management on how this process works. They will be better at gathering evidence and presenting cases as you have stated has been done by the union. I still think the way the rest of the country works the labor panels is better.

I figured you would say that! Isnt it true that typically the union sides with management at national panels? I have never been to a national panel, however from reading on here i have not heard a lot of great victories from the union at these! All i have heard about is grievances denied, lost or thrown out.

Of course the company will get better, and in no way was i slamming the company from panel at thursday. It was the first time this format was used and no one knew what to expect. I do feel that the union agents adapted better on the fly compared to the company who had their cases typed out in the order they wanted to present it. However several curve balls were thrown by the arbitrator.

What i hope that comes out of this is no more bs terminations. The arbitrators rotate, and it wont take long for an arbitrator to see which sodi brings up credible cases and which side doesnt.
P.S. I have not hard do you have a new DM yet??

No news yet but our outgoing dm surely will be missed. For those of you that are not aware our dm resigned a little over a week ago. He was brought in to my building to fix the problems that were left behind from the last incompetent dm.

He ran the building with an iron fist, but the employees never saw it, crap most of the employees never saw him. They heard the name but he wasnt one to walk around with his chest pumped out.

He was an operational genius, he had the gift of a heart, that is not very common for those that high up on the food chain. At the same time you did not want to have an accident, because then he got involved and he hated accidents.

This is the same dm from last year that allowed a deceased driver the honor of being delivered to the cemetery from the funeral home in his package car driven by his best friend also a ups driver.

D.S, im sorry to hear that you resigned and i wish you all the best in life you have earned it! Take care, and im still not paying 80 cents for a snickers!

 

[HEFFERNAN]

D.S, im sorry to hear that you resigned and i wish you all the best in life you have earned it! Take care, and im still not paying 80 cents for a snickers!

Brings back fond memories of a past thread !!

 

[705red]

Brings back fond memories of a past thread !!

Heff im sure when the dm reads this he will laugh! I only wish i new he was resigning, i would have had him sign off on a lot of grievances before. You know i=like in the presidents last few days? LAme duck status? lmao!

Thats what was great about him, you could be bumping heads one minutes and then sitting there busting chops.

I still remember when we were discusiing the funeral. He was on here reading it shaking his head because he couldnt believe it got out, and than his wife said click on the video. He almost choked on his breakfast! Im still laughing!

 

[Bloodybrown]

No news yet but our outgoing dm surely will be missed. For those of you that are not aware our dm resigned a little over a week ago. He was brought in to my building to fix the problems that were left behind from the last incompetent dm.

He ran the building with an iron fist, but the employees never saw it, crap most of the employees never saw him. They heard the name but he wasnt one to walk around with his chest pumped out.

He was an operational genius, he had the gift of a heart, that is not very common for those that high up on the food chain. At the same time you did not want to have an accident, because then he got involved and he hated accidents.

This is the same dm from last year that allowed a deceased driver the honor of being delivered to the cemetery from the funeral home in his package car driven by his best friend also a ups driver.

D.S, im sorry to hear that you resigned and i wish you all the best in life you have earned it! Take care, and im still not paying 80 cents for a snickers!

Red,
As I read your posts, you sound like you have become a more reasonable union rep than I have read in the past and I find myself not diagreeing with you as much, although there are number of things that we will agree to disagree on. I know your Labor einviornment has been pretty bad over the years and maybe with some education on both sides, your relationship with management will improve as you have stated the DM that just left the company had your respect as well as others. I knew him and he was considered an excellent DM. I don't know why he left but I to wish him the very best as well !!

 

[Overpaid Union Thug]

So, the bottom line is that the Sitting Arbitrator was a good thing for the example cases. The one that caught my eye was the fired air driver. Fired for negligence? UPS can be pure jerks in these cases. I'm all for true crimes and acts of negligence being dealt with but the battles UPS choses always seem to be the wrong ones.

 

[brownman15]

Im not arguing that point, i agree with that.....Im sort of feeling what bloodybrown was saying....maybe these issues could have been resolved in the lower level hearings if 705 wasnt so hard up with the blind following of the employee. Im not going to argue whether or not the 705 should fight for their employees, of course they should but I can almost guarantee they also protect employees they shouldnt which in itself with arbitration costs, could cost jobs.

maybe u can talk to the ups management in local 705 to resolve the issues at the lower level hearings instead of deadlocking.

 

[drewed]

maybe u can talk to the ups management in local 705 to resolve the issues at the lower level hearings instead of deadlocking.

its a 2 way street BM

 

[brownman15]

its a 2 way street BM

so i should just let the company fire people for non-cardinal infractions.

 

[drewed]

if they deserve to be gone then yes, deadlocking for deadbeats doesnt do anyone any good.

 

[brownman15]

if they deserve to be gone then yes, deadlocking for deadbeats doesnt do anyone any good.

what about all the deadbeats in management they are not gone. oh yeah they send them to alaska.

 

[brownman15]

if they deserve to be gone then yes, deadlocking for deadbeats doesnt do anyone any good.

how do u know they are deadbeats. just because somebody in management does not like them they are a deadbeat according to u. ups has to follow the contract for all employees not just the ones they like.

 

[drewed]

BM its apples and oranges, management peoples jobs are at the whim of the company...the point im making and ive already made it once is that the union will protect a person for sake of them being in the union whether its a bad case or not management is forced to deadlock because it is a bad case and the person doesnt deserve to work here anymore, THATS THE POINT

 

[drewed]

how do u know they are deadbeats. just because somebody in management does not like them they are a deadbeat according to u. ups has to follow the contract for all employees not just the ones they like.

you cant sit there and honestly tell me the union doesnt protect people they shouldnt and get their jobs back even though theyre a detriment to the company and the union.

 

[backinbrown]

you cant sit there and honestly tell me the union doesnt protect people they shouldnt and get their jobs back even though theyre a detriment to the company and the union.

It happens and it doesn't make them happy to do it but they are obligated to do so.

Now if the employee doesn't want to help themselves and keeps repeating the stupid things they are getting bagged for then eventually driver will be high and dry on there own.

they don't enjoy helping the people who don't help themselves but mayby hope the driver will learn and keep nose clean and learn a lesson. JMO

 

[705red]

BM its apples and oranges, management peoples jobs are at the whim of the company...the point im making and ive already made it once is that the union will protect a person for sake of them being in the union whether its a bad case or not management is forced to deadlock because it is a bad case and the person doesnt deserve to work here anymore, THATS THE POINT

you cant sit there and honestly tell me the union doesnt protect people they shouldnt and get their jobs back even though theyre a detriment to the company and the union.

Drewed you are exactly right! If you allow them to obtain their seniority than we will not allow you to fire them just to fire them! The contract is clear on what you can be disciplined for. We will not uphold a termination because you wrongfully terminated for something that is not a terminating offense!

The union upholds the language in the contract. You have your trial period to feel the employee out.

Now if you present a good case according to the contract and its a clear violation we will uphold the termination.

You are being trained by some half ass upper management if you feel the union should uphold a termination because your employee does not sort up to your expectations, or because he does not allow you to work!

 

[Red Dawn]

This past Thursday was the first time that we had a fifth man (arbitrator) sitting at our discipline hearings. We had three cases that we heard.

The first case was a 32 year employee who was fired for dishonesty. The company accused him of stealing time, 2minutes hear 2 minutes there. This case was the first that was heard and took 2 and a half hours to be presented. The case was deadlocked by the panel and the arb broke the tie.
Grievant was put back to work!

Second case was a tug driver at O'Hara who hit a pothole and broke the windshield and blew out a tire. He reported the damage and was fired for not reporting an accident. Again the panel was deadlocked and the arb broke the tie.
Greivant was put back to work!

Third case was an air driver that slid on snow/ice in to an intersection and was involved in a serious accident. She was fired for gross negligence. Again the panel was deadlocked and the arb broke the tie.
Grievant was put back to work!

I encourage all locals to get this sitting arbitrator in their language! All three of these employees would have been out at least 18 months waiting on arbitration!

how did yall get that?

 

[mnnice]

Yes of course one of them won back pay for all lost time. We dont look at the employee, we look at the contract to see if it was violated. If its been violated it goes to panel, if its not it gets signed off before panel. Its the company that is unreasonable! THEY WANT TO TRADE CASES AND THAT WILL NEVER HAPPEN HERE EVER AGAIN!



Both sides now split the cost of the arbitrator monthly. In January there were no terminations and the arb still got paid. After watching February's panel, i don't think there will be any terminations for march!
705Red, you make the statement "It's the company that is unreasonable!" and when I look at the three cases that you mentioned, one of them really has nothing to do with the company being unreasonable. The driver that slid on snow/ice into an intersection and caused a serious accident. I don't have all the facts in front of me, but then you didn't give them to us to help us make our opinion, instead you stated that the company was unreasonable. If the accident was serious it means that injuries were caused and vehicle damage was extensive. We don't know the employees history, but we do know it was a serious accident. It is the company's obligation to the general public to not have people be involved in accidents that could cause harm/death. Again, you are placing the blame on the company when the blame should be on the employee. I realize this is your opinion, but make sure your opinions aren't always one sided.

 

[705red]

Yes of course one of them won back pay for all lost time. We dont look at the employee, we look at the contract to see if it was violated. If its been violated it goes to panel, if its not it gets signed off before panel. Its the company that is unreasonable! THEY WANT TO TRADE CASES AND THAT WILL NEVER HAPPEN HERE EVER AGAIN!



Both sides now split the cost of the arbitrator monthly. In January there were no terminations and the arb still got paid. After watching February's panel, i don't think there will be any terminations for march!
705Red, you make the statement "It's the company that is unreasonable!" and when I look at the three cases that you mentioned, one of them really has nothing to do with the company being unreasonable. The driver that slid on snow/ice into an intersection and caused a serious accident. I don't have all the facts in front of me, but then you didn't give them to us to help us make our opinion, instead you stated that the company was unreasonable. If the accident was serious it means that injuries were caused and vehicle damage was extensive. We don't know the employees history, but we do know it was a serious accident. It is the company's obligation to the general public to not have people be involved in accidents that could cause harm/death. Again, you are placing the blame on the company when the blame should be on the employee. I realize this is your opinion, but make sure your opinions aren't always one sided.

There is a difference between sliding on pavement in bad weather conditions and causing an accident, then driving wrecklessly and causing a serious accident. Just because you meet the critera of what defines a serious accident does not mean you do not have to prove gross negligence. There is a difference!

 

[MonavieLeaker]

Said it before and I'll say it again UPS agreed to this contract as much as the union did...If UPS doesnt like it...Not the Union's problem