“The Body of Christ” with Integrity (On Topic Only”

Integrity

Binge Poster
For anyone interested:

I respectfully disagree with the above article for the following reasons:
1. Nowhere does the Bible state that the Spirit dwells personally in a Christian. Admittedly, the Holy Spirit dwells in God's children. To deny this is to deny plain passages of Scripture. Paul wrote, "That good thing which was committed unto thee keep by the Holy Ghost which dwelleth in us" (2 Tim. 1:14; cf. 1 Cor. 6:19; Rom. 8:9). But the issue is not whether the Spirit dwells in us, but HOW does he dwell - personally or through faith?
Let us notice that God the Father resides in the Christian. John wrote, "God dwelleth in us" (1 Jn. 4:12; cf. vv. 13,15,16). Does God personally dwell in us? John explicitly states that God dwells in us, but I know of no one who maintains his personal Being is in us.
Jesus also dwells in us. Compare the following two Scriptures:
"And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin "(Rom. 8:10).
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you (Rom. 8:9).
Why is it that people make Christ's indwelling in Romans 8:10 representative (through instrumentality), but make the Holy Spirit's indwelling in Romans 8:9, the verse before, personal? I fail to see the logic of such reasoning (cf. Gal. 2:20 and Col. 1:27 for Christ dwelling in us).

2. A personal indwelling necessitates an incarnation. When Jesus was born, he was God in the flesh. "Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us" (Matt. 1:23).
Jesus' Being, Entity or Person dwelled in his fleshly body, actually and totally. Hence, an incarnation. Why is not the same thing true if the Holy Spirit, who is God (Deity, Acts 5:3,4), dwells in our bodies personally and totally? There would be just as many incarnations as there are Christians. It would be just as proper to call a Christian "Emmanuel" as it would be to call Jesus by that name.

3. The Holy Spirit dwelling in us is by metonymy of speech. Metonymy of the cause is a figure of speech where the cause is put for the effect. Many times the person acting is put for the thing done. This is true in regard to the Holy Spirit.
Thomas Horne wrote, "A Metonymy of the cause is used in Scripture, when the person acting is put for the thing done, or the instrument by which a thing is done is put for the thing effected, or when a thing or action is put for the effect produced by that action" (Introduction to the Scriptures, Vol. 2, Part 1, p. 454). Horne lists several ways the Holy Spirit is put for the thing done:
a. The Holy Spirit is put for his Effects, as in 2 Corinthians 3:6.
b. The Holy Spirit is put for his Operations.
c. The Holy Spirit is put for the influences or Gifts of the Spirit, as in 1 Thessalonians 5:19. Quench not the Spirit.
d. Spirit also denotes a Divine Power or energy, reigning in the soul of a renewed man.
e. More especially the Holy Spirit is put for those peculiar and extraordinary Gifts of the Spirit, which, for various uses, whether public or private, spiritual or temporal, are bestowed on man.
friend. The Spirit is also put for revelations, visions or ecstasies, whether really from the Holy Spirit, or pretended to be so (Ibid., pp. 455-456).
E.W. Bullinger makes the same observation as Horne concerning the Spirit being put for the gifts and operations of the Spirit (Figures of Speech Used in the Bible, pp. 540-543). D.R. Dungan says, "God and Christ and the Holy Spirit are frequently mentioned, whereas the result of their efforts in the redemption of the race is intended" (Hermeneutics, p. 271).
"It is inconsistent to contend that Jesus Christ, who is Deity, dwells in us by faith while maintaining the Holy Spirit, who is also Deity, the third person in the Godhead, dwells in us personally. We just as well say that Jesus dwells in us personally as to claim the Holy Spirit does. Both are the same in nature and essence."
Abraham told the rich man concerning his five brethren, "They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them" (Lk. 16:29). Moses and the prophets had been dead hundreds of years, but their writings prevailed. Though Moses and the prophets are stated, their writings are meant. Here is a simple example of cause for effect. Moses was read in the synagogues every sabbath day (Acts 15:21), that is, Moses' law was read.
By metonymy of speech it is easy to see how the Holy Spirit is said to be in all Christians at the same time, namely, through miraculous endowments and gifts during the days of miracles or by his influence and nature that are common to all Christians in every generation.
To the apostles Jesus said of the Spirit, "for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you" (Jn. 14:17). The Spirit was in the apostles through the power with which he endowed them. Just prior to his ascension Jesus said to his apostles, "And behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued (clothed, WEW) with power from on high" (Lk. 24:49). The word "from" (ek) denotes the same thing as "of" (opo) in Acts 2:17.
Peter, quoting Joel, said, "And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of (from, Marshall's Interlinear) my Spirit upon all flesh" (Acts 2:17). The pouring out was the miraculous power, not the Spirit himself. A person is not poured out. What the apostles received was from the Spirit as Acts 2:17 and Luke 24:49 clearly and succinctly states. This was also true of Cornelius and his household as well as all those in the church who received miraculous gifts (cf. Acts 10:45; 1 Cor. 12:4-11; Heb. 2:34). God said he would pour out from (apo) his Spirit upon all flesh.

4. We are to be filled with the Spirit. Paul writes, "And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess, but be filled with the Spirit" (Eph. 5:18). "Be filled" is translated from pleurousthe (present passive imperative) which has the import of a command. Being filled with the Spirit is a human effort, progressive in nature, and reflected in life by the fruit of the Spirit. The parallel verse in Colossians 3:16 shows we are filled with the Spirit through the medium of the word of God as we allow it to dwell in us richly.
If we received the Holy Spirit at baptism in his totality, as some interpret Acts 2:38, how could we be filled with the Spirit subsequent to conversion as taught in Ephesians 5:18? If we have the Holy Spirit personally and totally, how could we get any fuller than full?

5. The gift of the Spirit is no more the person of the Spirit than the gift of God and the gift of Christ are their person. Acts 2:38 states we receive the gift of the Spirit after repentance and baptism. Why do some conclude this is the person of the Spirit? Isn't it just as plausible that the gift is something the Holy Spirit gives us rather than himself? The gift is salvation after obedience to the gospel.
Jesus said to the woman at Jacob's Well, "If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, arid he would have given thee living water" (Jn. 4:10). The gift is not God, but what he gives -living water. Paul wrote, "But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ" (Eph. 4:7). The gift is not Christ, but the office and function in the church, such as apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers (Eph. 4:11). Christ determines these, not ourselves.
In like-manner the Holy Spirit gives all those whose sins are forgiven through obedience to the gospel a gift, viz., the gift of salvation (cf. Joel 2:32; Acts 2:21). Remission of sins in Acts 2:38 is a condition of salvation, having, therefore, to precede salvation in order to gain deliverance (salvation). Remission of sins and salvation are no more redundant than are "sanctified" and "justified" in 1 Corinthians 6:11. There is a logical sequence in both passages.

It is scriptural and logical to conclude that the Holy Spirit dwells in our hearts by faith. Paul said to the Ephesians, "That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith" (Eph. 3:17). If Christ dwells in us by faith, why not the Holy Spirit by the same process?
It is inconsistent to contend that Jesus Christ, who is Deity, dwells in us by faith while maintaining the Holy Spirit, who is also Deity, the third person in the Godhead, dwells in us personally. We just as well say that Jesus dwells in us personally as to claim the Holy Spirit does. Both are the same in nature and essence.
We are told that we don't even sense the indwelling, or experience it, but we just accept it by faith. This seems like a strange concept wherein a Divine Being resides in our bodies and he has no effect on us whatsoever in exercising his mind and characteristics.
Very nice contribution. I appreciate your effort, time and thought obviously put in.

I do however disagree with your beliefs expressed in it.

I believe each believer’s relationship with God is personal and therefore the in dwelling that you refer to of the Holy Spirit of God in the believer is personal as well.

Peace.
 

Integrity

Binge Poster
I had not heard of "Red-Letter Christians" before ... I gravitated towards my red-letter journey in my teens (late 60's and 70's) and in the between years by studying The Jesus Project and Funk's movement.
It appears "Red-Letter Christians" started up after Funk's death so probably very close to my beliefs.
There also was a study in the 1950's that filtered the Bible to those words most likely spoken by Jesus ... that I studied.

"Christ is the lens through which we interpret the Word and the world." Red-Letter quote.
This is exactly my primary guide in my spiritual journey.

"Red-Letter Christians" believe Christians should be paying attention to Jesus' words and example by promoting biblical values such as peace, building strong families, the elimination of poverty, and other important social justice issues. They believe that these are the issues that Jesus spoke of directly, and therefore these issues should be social and political priorities.
Right up my alley!

Other issues such as the question of abortion and homosexuality are viewed as important but over-emphasized by both liberals and conservatives.
Each person has their own spiritual journey and questions related to abortion and homosexuality are fuzzy areas of individual freedom and never addressed in the Red Words of the Bible. I believe Jesus was inclusive and accepted people as they were.


My hair has grown a lot during the COVID!
This is my Red-letter poise! LOL

View attachment 326717
Thanks for sharing all of this. I can really relate to and appreciate your perspective.
 

Old Man Jingles

Rat out of a cage
I believe each believer’s relationship with God is personal and therefore the in dwelling that you refer to of the Holy Spirit of God in the believer is personal as well.

Peace.
Pharisees overload their beliefs with effluence of words to confuse and obfuscate ... for a simple paragon you expressed so clearly.
It appears @BrownFlush's belief's are more centered in controlling the masses than supporting one's relationship with God.
 
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BrownFlush

Woke Racist Reigning Ban King
Yes, I do believe this is possible.
Sorry but that is impossible.
The very idea that you think Deity could contradict itself proves your personal indwelling in a person is a false position.
Your conscience can contradict itself but not God.
It is impossible for God to lie. (Heb. 6:18)

The next time God tells you something, would you please post what he said? Better yet, could you ask him why he is even talking to you? After all, his way of communicating his will to others has always been through prophets and apostles and then written down in his word.
Please ask him why you have been chosen and are the exception to receive personal revelation directly from Him.
Peace.
Pharisees overload their beliefs with * of words to confuse and obfuscate ... for a simple paragon you expressed so clearly.
It appears @BrownFlush's belief's are more centered in controlling the masses than supporting one's relationship with God.
Your comment appears as a ridiculous accusation.
I control nothing. Masses? Lol
Control one’s relationship with God? His word that you minimize does that infidel.

“The one who rejects me and does not receive my words has a judge, the word that I have spoken will judge him on the last Day. - John 12: 48

Like @Integrity, the next time God( or whatever the Higher Power you’re feeling at the time) speaks to you, please post the direct revaluation.
Since God is speaking to you both, please share so all can benefit.
 

Darmark7

Retired 2020. Not my Problem Anymore!
If church had anything to offer the people would be coming. Churches have become a business that no one wants to be part of. If a church is 501c3 (tax exempt) their head is the government not matter what they tell you. First thing to check is if they are tax exempt, if so run fast away! They are in it for the money. If a church has to make a deal with the Satanic government to get out of paying taxes how powerful is that churches‘ god? Churches are dying because people are waking up.
 

BrownFlush

Woke Racist Reigning Ban King
If church had anything to offer the people would be coming. Churches have become a business that no one wants to be part of. If a church is 501c3 (tax exempt) their head is the government not matter what they tell you. First thing to check is if they are tax exempt, if so run fast away! They are in it for the money. If a church has to make a deal with the Satanic government to get out of paying taxes how powerful is that churches‘ god? Churches are dying because people are waking up.
Some for sure are.
Not the Lord’s church. I can assure you it is in the business of saving souls.
Churches are dying because they are not a branch of the true vine.
 

Integrity

Binge Poster
Sorry but that is impossible.
The very idea that you think Deity could contradict itself proves your personal indwelling in a person is a false position.
Your conscience can contradict itself but not God.
It is impossible for God to lie. (Heb. 6:18)

The next time God tells you something, would you please post what he said? Better yet, could you ask him why he is even talking to you? After all, his way of communicating his will to others has always been through prophets and apostles and then written down in his word.
Please ask him why you have been chosen and are the exception to receive personal revelation directly from Him.
Peace.

Your comment appears as a ridiculous accusation.
I control nothing. Masses? Lol
Control one’s relationship with God? His word that you minimize does that infidel.

“The one who rejects me and does not receive my words has a judge, the word that I have spoken will judge him on the last Day. - John 12: 48

Like @Integrity, the next time God( or whatever the Higher Power you’re feeling at the time) speaks to you, please post the direct revaluation.
Since God is speaking to you both, please share so all can benefit.
@BrownFlush,

I hope you have had and are having a simply blessed day.

I believe with God all things are possible, but to the point.

Your previous question in post #379 of this thread was:

"Would the HS tell you one thing to do and tell someone to do something that contradicted or was different from what he told you?"

My reply to this question in post #382 of this thread was:

Yes, I do believe this is possible.

You notice your question is stated as an inclusive disjunction, at least I read it that way.

Although I firmly believe that God can do anything he wants for His good purpose, up to and including seemingly in our human understanding contradict something if He wants. I mean look at the manner He expressed His great love for us in the sacrifice of His begotten Son Jesus. Brutalized because of His great love for us. Without the Holy Spirit's guidance one might see this as a contradiction, I don't, but one might.

My answer is actually yes and no, or more precisely no and yes. No on the contradiction part, yes on the different part.

I say this respecting God limitless nature, by answering I in no way presume to limit God in anyway, ever.
But to further explain my answer, basically and generally as a rule, I don't believe God contradicts principles rooted in love for Him and love for ourselves and love for each other. I believe that would be confusing, I believe God is not a God of confusion, but one of peace, harmony, unity and love. This is all through Jesus, by the power of the Holy Spirit.

I firmly believe that God, the Holy Spirit tells some to do and not do some things and others to do and not do different things.

Peace!
 

BrownFlush

Woke Racist Reigning Ban King
@BrownFlush,

I hope you have had and are having a simply blessed day.

I believe with God all things are possible, but to the point.

Your previous question in post #379 of this thread was:

"Would the HS tell you one thing to do and tell someone to do something that contradicted or was different from what he told you?"

My reply to this question in post #382 of this thread was:

Yes, I do believe this is possible.

You notice your question is stated as an inclusive disjunction, at least I read it that way.

Although I firmly believe that God can do anything he wants for His good purpose, up to and including seemingly in our human understanding contradict something if He wants. I mean look at the manner He expressed His great love for us in the sacrifice of His begotten Son Jesus. Brutalized because of His great love for us. Without the Holy Spirit's guidance one might see this as a contradiction, I don't, but one might.

My answer is actually yes and no, or more precisely no and yes. No on the contradiction part, yes on the different part.

I say this respecting God limitless nature, by answering I in no way presume to limit God in anyway, ever.
But to further explain my answer, basically and generally as a rule, I don't believe God contradicts principles rooted in love for Him and love for ourselves and love for each other. I believe that would be confusing, I believe God is not a God of confusion, but one of peace, harmony, unity and love. This is all through Jesus, by the power of the Holy Spirit.

I firmly believe that God, the Holy Spirit tells some to do and not do some things and others to do and not do different things.

Peace!
His Word does not harmonize with your comments, beliefs, or statements.
There is no unity in what you say and what God says.
Try as you might, you really are rambling on in a confusing way.You’re all over the place.
Unity is not found in diversity.
Peace.
 

BrownFlush

Woke Racist Reigning Ban King
“ Can two walk together unless they be agreed?”— Amos 3: 3
@Integrity
Again, please let me know what God says to you in the next personal revelation you get from him.
Thanks.
 

Integrity

Binge Poster
Pharisees overload their beliefs with effluence of words to confuse and obfuscate ... for a simple paragon you expressed so clearly.
It appears @BrownFlush's belief's are more centered in controlling the masses than supporting one's relationship with God.
A couple of years ago one of the men at our Men's Breakfast opened up his testimony with Hi my name is_______________, I am a recovered Pharisee.
 

Integrity

Binge Poster
His Word does not harmonize with your comments, beliefs, or statements.
There is no unity in what you say and what God says.
Try as you might, you really are rambling on in a confusing way.You’re all over the place.
Unity is not found in diversity.
Peace.
I don't believe as you do in each of your sentences in this reply except sentence 5.

Peace.
 

Integrity

Binge Poster
“ Can two walk together unless they be agreed?”— Amos 3: 3
@Integrity
Again, please let me know what God says to you in the next personal revelation you get from him.
Thanks.
I shared post #347 of this thread. You seemed were very dismissive of my story. That's ok.

I am walking in the Spirit frequently, I wish I could say constantly but I will stick with frequently. I'm talking to God on and off all day, and I am feeling His closeness and hearing Him in my Spirit often and I will surely share the next time I have a note worthy spiritual experience to relate.

God's love is so amazing!
 

BrownFlush

Woke Racist Reigning Ban King
I shared post #347 of this thread. You seemed were very dismissive of my story. That's ok.

I am walking in the Spirit frequently, I wish I could say constantly but I will stick with frequently. I'm talking to God on and off all day, and I am feeling His closeness and hearing Him in my Spirit often and I will surely share the next time I have a note worthy spiritual experience to relate.

God's love is so amazing!
Everybody’s got a story.
 

BrownFlush

Woke Racist Reigning Ban King
So true.

It is so awesome that God’s love is available to all, regardless of their story.
“Faith comes from hearing the word of God.”—Rom. 10 : 17
A faith that is taught.
Without that faith, it is impossible to please him.” — Hebrews 11:6
Faith that is acceptable to God does not come from uninspired stories.
 
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