brownIEman

Well-Known Member
It really comes back to this. Everyone arguing that the company should not be allowed to deny guarantee or send home is understandably reticent to give management that much power in this situation. They are missing the fundamental truth that the employee has the ability to take all that power away by simply :

stop being late
 

Jkloc420

Do you need an air compressor or tire gauge
It really comes back to this. Everyone arguing that the company should not be allowed to deny guarantee or send home is understandably reticent to give management that much power in this situation. They are missing the fundamental truth that the employee has the ability to take all that power away by simply :
i have been told for 16 years now being late counts as a miss day anyways, might as will stay home, also you get the extra day if you do miss
 

zubenelgenubi

Living for Lunch Break
It really comes back to this. Everyone arguing that the company should not be allowed to deny guarantee or send home is understandably reticent to give management that much power in this situation. They are missing the fundamental truth that the employee has the ability to take all that power away by simply :

I don't think anyone is arguing that it is ok to show up late. I feel like I'm late if I show up 10 minutes early. If the company follows the attendance policy, then the union should not be able to do anything about it. The issue of this thread is, and always has been, that management at this particular location is not following policy, and that union members have a way to hold them accountable, and should use it. Of course showing up on time will take care of the problem, but that was always the case.
 

brownIEman

Well-Known Member
I don't think anyone is arguing that it is ok to show up late. I feel like I'm late if I show up 10 minutes early. If the company follows the attendance policy, then the union should not be able to do anything about it. The issue of this thread is, and always has been, that management at this particular location is not following policy, and that union members have a way to hold them accountable, and should use it. Of course showing up on time will take care of the problem, but that was always the case.

I get what you are saying, and I get most agree it is not OK to be late.
What I am asking is why is this local management not following policy?

Hear me out. Unless they are totally brain dead, they know that trying to hit someone coming in late with a NCNS is never going to go anywhere and will be tossed as a step in progressive discipline. So, from a progressive discipline standpoint, it is less than worthless. But what if some young PT houly who is having trouble getting his bearings in life, has a kid from his girlfriend he didn't plan on and is working for health insurance trying to make a go of things. He may not be savy, he may not realize what they are doing. When they sit him down and tell him he is getting a NCNS, maybe he gets scared, maybe scared enough to wise up. You're suggesting this management team is being out of bounds, and should be held accountable to follow policy, and they should give him his doc talk, warning letter, suspension, then fire him and send him packing with no insurance, good luck and good riddance. I can see that, that is technically how it is supposed to work. But if as management I can come up with a way to motivate employees to correct their behavior, rather than just fire them, I am going to call that a win even if I had to go outside policy a bit to do it. At the end of the day the BA's and Stewards can beat their chests and scream obscenities at me till the cows come home, as they are want to do, I don't work for them.
 

zubenelgenubi

Living for Lunch Break
I get what you are saying, and I get most agree it is not OK to be late.
What I am asking is why is this local management not following policy?

Hear me out. Unless they are totally brain dead, they know that trying to hit someone coming in late with a NCNS is never going to go anywhere and will be tossed as a step in progressive discipline. So, from a progressive discipline standpoint, it is less than worthless. But what if some young PT houly who is having trouble getting his bearings in life, has a kid from his girlfriend he didn't plan on and is working for health insurance trying to make a go of things. He may not be savy, he may not realize what they are doing. When they sit him down and tell him he is getting a NCNS, maybe he gets scared, maybe scared enough to wise up. You're suggesting this management team is being out of bounds, and should be held accountable to follow policy, and they should give him his doc talk, warning letter, suspension, then fire him and send him packing with no insurance, good luck and good riddance. I can see that, that is technically how it is supposed to work. But if as management I can come up with a way to motivate employees to correct their behavior, rather than just fire them, I am going to call that a win even if I had to go outside policy a bit to do it. At the end of the day the BA's and Stewards can beat their chests and scream obscenities at me till the cows come home, as they are want to do, I don't work for them.

So you think the ncns tactic is a way to avoid firing people?

giphy (2).gif
 
E

el blanco

Guest
late for a social event, fine

this is a job, you are here to sell your labor and skills

join the military, and show up late for your next duty assignment
 

brownIEman

Well-Known Member
So you think the ncns tactic is a way to avoid firing people?

View attachment 179988

I think they are trying a desperate measure to get people to change their behavior and stop being late. If successful, it would mean they don't fire people. So in a way, yes.

Why do you think they are charging people with a ridiculous infraction that will only serve to invalidate the step toward termination that they would get if they were writing them up for the late dependability infraction that it actually is?
 
F

Frankie's Friend

Guest
We have a pds that recently sent a pt timer home because he was a minute late and charged him with a NCNS even tho he showed up. The pt timer got paid his 3.5 and the pds got reprimanded. The pds is a piece of work and cant wait to drag a pt employee into the office at 6 in 9 unless youre one of his buddies (he is very young). He enjoys the "power trip". Not every supervisor is "constructive" in dealing with disciplinary issues. @brownIEman , you seem to have a grip on employee relations and could (possibly) teach a few of the company's current supes how to constructively resolve issues but too often the bottom feeders (& laziest workers) take a management position for the wrong reasons, frustrating the hourly.
 
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Heavy Package

Well-Known Member
This policy has the potential to unfairly punish even the best workers. To add insult to injury, one of the hub supervisors along with shop steward said this practice was approved by the labor manager.

Dear Millennial: Get to work! Get up! Get the :furious:ck up! Get off the couch and get to work! You can cry in your safe space when you get home.

young-people-having-fun-playing-video-games-37398300.jpg
 

zubenelgenubi

Living for Lunch Break
I think they are trying a desperate measure to get people to change their behavior and stop being late. If successful, it would mean they don't fire people. So in a way, yes.

Why do you think they are charging people with a ridiculous infraction that will only serve to invalidate the step toward termination that they would get if they were writing them up for the late dependability infraction that it actually is?

I suppose I could buy that theory, but to answer your question, I always assume incompetence. Scare tactics are generally used by "theory x" types.
 

brownIEman

Well-Known Member
I suppose I could buy that theory, but to answer your question, I always assume incompetence. Scare tactics are generally used by "theory x" types.

Could be. Incompetence is not a bad bet lacking specific information.

What would you suggest if everything but scare tactics have been tried and haven't worked? I never used scare tactics. Not because I'm any kind of saint, I am just not a confrontational person by nature and I sucked at scare tactics. I always tried the heart to heart talks. There were a few kids that didn't work with and they wound up getting themselves fired. Maybe it would have been better to try scaring, in any case I failed. Any termination is a failure on management part, so I'm reluctant to condemn efforts to avoid it.
 

brownIEman

Well-Known Member
We have a pds that recently sent a pt timer home because he was a minute late and charged him with a NCNS even tho he showed up. The pt timer got paid his 3.5 and the pds got reprimanded. The pds is a piece of work and cant wait to drag a pt employee into the office at 6 in 9 unless youre one of his buddies (he is very young). He enjoys the "power trip". Not every supervisor is "constructive" in dealing with disciplinary issues. @brownIEman , you seem to have a grip on employee relations and could (possibly) teach a few of the company's current supes how to constructively resolve issues but too often the bottom feeders (& laziest workers) take a management position for the wrong reasons, frustrating the hourly.

That sucks. Sounds like you have a Mitch. Room mate I'm Patch Adams movies "you think you have to be prick to get things done and you think that's a new idea". Worked with a few of them, I was in my 40s be the time I went into operations management and there was no way I was going to turn myself into a prick for UPS. I worked with a few Mitch's. There are Union thugs who think being in a Union means you can pull whatever bull :censored2: you please and will still have a job, and that being anything less than a disrespectful prick in every interaction with mgmnt is the same as being a kiss ass. Dealing with those thugs was a pain in the as but I'm willing to stipulate dealing with a Mitch is probably worse.
 
F

Frankie's Friend

Guest
That sucks. Sounds like you have a Mitch. Room mate I'm Patch Adams movies "you think you have to be prick to get things done and you think that's a new idea". Worked with a few of them, I was in my 40s be the time I went into operations management and there was no way I was going to turn myself into a prick for UPS. I worked with a few Mitch's. There are Union thugs who think being in a Union means you can pull whatever bull :censored2: you please and will still have a job, and that being anything less than a disrespectful prick in every interaction with mgmnt is the same as being a kiss ass. Dealing with those thugs was a pain in the as but I'm willing to stipulate dealing with a Mitch is probably worse.
The union thugs get terminated quicker than the management does because they get sloppy, take too much for granted. Heck, the management more often than not just get moved. It takes a smart union thug to stay out of the crosshairs. Abuse on either side of the shed (as @Dragon calls it) is garbage. I truly believe this but thuggery in our building has never been an issue. Honest. After a while the hourly just realizes that the disconnect is due to poor communication and it's probably never going to change. Listening and understanding the other person's thoughts and explanation tskes work and heaven forbid that become the norm.
 

zubenelgenubi

Living for Lunch Break
Could be. Incompetence is not a bad bet lacking specific information.

What would you suggest if everything but scare tactics have been tried and haven't worked? I never used scare tactics. Not because I'm any kind of saint, I am just not a confrontational person by nature and I sucked at scare tactics. I always tried the heart to heart talks. There were a few kids that didn't work with and they wound up getting themselves fired. Maybe it would have been better to try scaring, in any case I failed. Any termination is a failure on management part, so I'm reluctant to condemn efforts to avoid it.

I agree that treating employees as actual people is the best way. Sitting down and talking with them, figuring out why they are having problems, and making sure they understand why showing up on time is important, helping them develop strategies to meet expectations, and getting their commitment to meet expectations are what I would start with. I believe that would be enough to get most people in line.

There are those special cases who would refuse to improve, that's when you go through the disciplinary steps. If you've done all that, and still have to terminate someone, it's not a failure on your part. If you use tactics such as the ones the OP describes, it fosters resentment and a lack of trust between workers and management.
 

eats packages

Deranged lunatic
It is really insincere when you are expected to show up on time for a pull that takes either 45 minutes or 2 hours and 20 minutes longer to complete than the time you are allowed. Hell I show up exactly on time just so my sup does not bark at me for all of ten minutes before we even start. I would be more inclined to care about my 1 late a month (getting stuck at a light or something) if this careless monstrosity of a pull was lined up better... or pay me overtime haha.
 
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