A possible MLK Holiday Solution?

[noril]

Screw Amazon. Quit following what other major money loosing companies do. I'm not for the mlk, because their trade off would be the day after Thanksgiving. No thanks..

Amazon has shown itself to be an amazing company and they are no longer losing money. Within 10 years they have built out a delivery system that has gone from basically zero to delivering almost as many packages as UPS delivers... I think it would be very short sighted and unwise for us to not pay close attention to what they are doing...

 

[UnionStrong]

Amazon has shown itself to be an amazing company and they are no longer losing money. Within 10 years they have built out a delivery system that has gone from basically zero to delivering almost as many packages as UPS delivers... I think it would be very short sighted and unwise for us to not pay close attention to what they are doing...

Wrong. Amazon delivers 1.6 million packages a day. UPS, 22.5 million a day. Shipping and delivering are 2 different things.

 

[Cowboy Mac]

That is why I have tried to make a case for negotiating in an ADDITIONAL discretionary day AS AN ALTERNATIVE to a paid company wide MLK Day holiday...One can use that discretionary day on MLK Day or any other day of ones choosing or take a payout...And the company benefits by not pausing operations.

Maybe our difference in thought on this issue ultimately shows a deeper difference between us...I favor giving people as much "space" as possible to make their own choices on the belief that each person should be capable of selecting what is right for him and am fine with different people choosing different options. Someone may want MLK Day off, another may want Good Friday, yet another may choose Veterans Day, and yet still another may just want some extra cash...All those choices are fine with me... In my mind, what I am proposing is better than some UPS or Teamster nanny figure telling us what days should be taken off.

The only solid argument I see against what I am proposing and for a company wide holiday is that there are so many people just yearning to have MLK Day off that it is practically impossible to run an operation with the number of people who would be willing to come in, so a company wide holiday is needed. Though I have not studied this issue in depth, I just don't see that being the case. People complain about plenty of different things at UPS, but I have not sensed that being scheduled to work on MLK Day is a real common major complaint.

I do thank you though, 542, for better engaging what I am saying with your comment in post #52 quoted above as opposed to your sarcastic reply earlier where I don't sense you really understood what I was saying based the response

More choices is always better in my book. Give me the extra option day and I’ll use it how I want to.

Honestly I don’t care about June 19th. The day means about as much to me as the day Washington crossed the Delaware. It’s an interesting fact of history, but that’s it.

Now if we were talking about Christmas Eve (which will never happen) I’d be all for getting that specific day.

 

[What'dyabringmetoday???]

We have a sup who, when he was a driver, said that we should have Juneteenth off and Juneteenth and MLK were more important than having Memorial Day or Labor Day off. I was like, you do know that without recognizing people who sacrificed their lives for your freedoms on days like Memorial Day, we don’t have discussions about civil rights and such. He didn’t understand that concept.

That being said, be careful wheat you wish for because we will lose something else in return. We are already on the verge of losing Black Friday and it will be a normal paid day.

Lost day after Thanksgiving here years ago. Handed it to UPS on a silver platter.

 

[What'dyabringmetoday???]

I know a self employed painter for whom the idea of "paid time off" is a foreign concept. If he is not working, he is not getting paid...its that simple, regardless of whether its a holiday, or he is very sick, or just needs some time off to rest and refresh...

Did he choose to be self-employed?

 

[542thruNthru]

That is why I have tried to make a case for negotiating in an ADDITIONAL discretionary day AS AN ALTERNATIVE to a paid company wide MLK Day holiday...One can use that discretionary day on MLK Day or any other day of ones choosing or take a payout...And the company benefits by not pausing operations.

Again, you're looking for a day off. Members are looking to be able to celebrate a holiday. A discretionary day doesn't help everyone do that.

Maybe our difference in thought on this issue ultimately shows a deeper difference between us...I favor giving people as much "space" as possible to make their own choices on the belief that each person should be capable of selecting what is right for him and am fine with different people choosing different options. Someone may want MLK Day off, another may want Good Friday, yet another may choose Veterans Day, and yet still another may just want some extra cash...All those choices are fine with me... In my mind, what I am proposing is better than some UPS or Teamster nanny figure telling us what days should be taken off.

Your solution still doesn't solve the problem. Again it's just you wanting another day off. What happens when everyone wants MLK day off? Or Good Friday? They won't be allowed. What about those low seniority people that can't get anything off?

The only solid argument I see against what I am proposing and for a company wide holiday is that there are so many people just yearning to have MLK Day off that it is practically impossible to run an operation with the number of people who would be willing to come in, so a company wide holiday is needed.

now you're getting it!

Though I have not studied this issue in depth, I just don't see that being the case. People complain about plenty of different things at UPS, but I have not sensed that being scheduled to work on MLK Day is a real common major complaint.

It's enough that that IBT feels its something to fight for. Perhaps the data from past proposals has already answered your question.

I do thank you though, 542, for better engaging what I am saying with your comment in post #52 quoted above as opposed to your sarcastic reply earlier where I don't sense you really understood what I was saying based the response

Oh I understood. I just felt that you don't actually understand the issue. You're just looking for a company friendly solution so you can still get the extra day off your crave. We're not interested in concessionary bargaining. So I addressed your post with the effort I felt it deserved.

 

[noril]

Ya think?

This is the reason UPS isn't taking O'Brien seriously. With all these other big issues to deal with, he is pushing for MLK and Juneteenth.

You already have 4 option days, and can break up your option week onto separate days, giving you 9. What are you willing to give up to get another day? Because that is how it works.

Right now, O'Brien is saying that this is what we want, and if you don't give it to us, we will walk. Again, that's why UPS won't take him seriously.

I agree that there should be no concessions, but to expect everything you ask for is ridiculous, or better yet, blackmail. His ego is going to have us on the picket line for all the wrong reasons.

Thank you for this thoughtful post. I have been keeping up with the twice daily updates on UPS Teamsters and have been having thoughts that I sense are quite similar to yours. O'Brien has definitely been making a push for MLK Day and Juneteenth and that is a big part of what inspired me to start this thread here on BC. I can't imagine he would be one to hang out or at least lurk here on BC, though if he learned about and read through this thread, it might actually be helpful and give him some worthwhile points to consider.

All that said, I keep reminding myself that it is ultimately impossible to get inside someone's head and some people do put on a public persona that is quite different from who they are in a more private setting. Additionally, I remind myself that I have never played even the smallest role in the negotiation of a labor contract so my expertise here is limited...I voted for O'Brien and he has my support, though not a signed blank check.

I get what you are saying about tradeoffs... For me personally, I don't struggle...um I mean live... paycheck to paycheck so to me this whole thing as a numbers game. For me, I wouldn't have a huge problem with trading all 9 of my discretionary days in exchange for some higher hourly wage at the negotiating table where the end result would be an equal number of dollars earned at the end of the year, because losing out a day of pay here and there is simply not an issue for me. In fact, if I take a discretionary day early in the year I almost hope the supervisor forgets to note the day as such so that when I ultimately get the payout in December, the payment will have the August raise included.

Now I fully realize and respect that there are plenty of people for whom losing a day of pay creates some serious and immediate problems, and also, since I want to try and stand behind my union president who has concluded that MLK Day is really important to some people, I have put forth this alternative of an additional discretionary day where hopefully everyone who is really yearning to have MLK Day off can get it without the loss of a day of pay and UPS won't be disadvantaged by having their whole operation paused.

 

[UnionStrong]

Thank you for this thoughtful post. I have been keeping up with the twice daily updates on UPS Teamsters and have been having thoughts that I sense are quite similar to yours. O'Brien has definitely been making a push for MLK Day and Juneteenth and that is a big part of what inspired me to start this thread here on BC. I can't imagine he would be one to hang out or at least lurk here on BC, though if he learned about and read through this thread, it might actually be helpful and give him some worthwhile points to consider.

All that said, I keep reminding myself that it is ultimately impossible to get inside someone's head and some people do put on a public persona that is quite different from who they are in a more private setting. Additionally, I remind myself that I have never played even the smallest role in the negotiation of a labor contract so my expertise here is limited...I voted for O'Brien and he has my support, though not a signed blank check.

I get what you are saying about tradeoffs... For me personally, I don't struggle...um I mean live... paycheck to paycheck so to me this whole thing as a numbers game. For me, I wouldn't have a huge problem with trading all 9 of my discretionary days in exchange for some higher hourly wage at the negotiating table where the end result would be an equal number of dollars earned at the end of the year, because losing out a day of pay here and there is simply not an issue for me. In fact, if I take a discretionary day early in the year I almost hope the supervisor forgets to note the day as such so that when I ultimately get the payout in December, the payment will have the August raise included.

Now I fully realize and respect that there are plenty of people for whom losing a day of pay creates some serious and immediate problems, and also, since I want to try and stand behind my union president who has concluded that MLK Day is really important to some people, I have put forth this alternative of an additional discretionary day where hopefully everyone who is really yearning to have MLK Day off can get it without the loss of a day of pay and UPS won't be disadvantaged by having their whole operation paused.

O’Brien probably doesn’t even know this place exists.

 

[noril]

Did he choose to be self-employed?

Yes he did, and this is what comes with being self employed...

 

[Ou812fu]

Amazon has shown itself to be an amazing company and they are no longer losing money. Within 10 years they have built out a delivery system that has gone from basically zero to delivering almost as many packages as UPS delivers... I think it would be very short sighted and unwise for us to not pay close attention to what they are doing...

They are losing money in every aspect except for their web based services. They funnel the money from that to every other thing they are doing.

 

[Wally]

Day after Thanksgiving. Forget MLK. So yesterday. Racism is where it's at:

More Universities Jump On Trend Of Holding Race-Based Graduation Events

Universities are holding different graduation celebrations and events for students based on their racial and backgrounds and sexual orientation.

dailycaller.com

‘Asian Graduation,’ ‘Black Graduation’: Columbia University Holding 7 Different Ceremonies For Students

Columbia University will hold six graduation ceremonies that are divide by race and socio-economic status.

dailycaller.com

 

[noril]

That is why I have tried to make a case for negotiating in an ADDITIONAL discretionary day AS AN ALTERNATIVE to a paid company wide MLK Day holiday...One can use that discretionary day on MLK Day or any other day of ones choosing or take a payout...And the company benefits by not pausing operations.

Again, you're looking for a day off. Members are looking to be able to celebrate a holiday. A discretionary day doesn't help everyone do that. A discretionary day does give more people more options. Cinco de Mayo is coming up...

Maybe our difference in thought on this issue ultimately shows a deeper difference between us...I favor giving people as much "space" as possible to make their own choices on the belief that each person should be capable of selecting what is right for him and am fine with different people choosing different options. Someone may want MLK Day off, another may want Good Friday, yet another may choose Veterans Day, and yet still another may just want some extra cash...All those choices are fine with me... In my mind, what I am proposing is better than some UPS or Teamster nanny figure telling us what days should be taken off.

Your solution still doesn't solve the problem. Again it's just you wanting another day off. What happens when everyone wants MLK day off? Or Good Friday? I believe that "everyone wants N day off" is a hypothetical which is contrary to fact... They won't be allowed. What about those low seniority people that can't get anything off?

The only solid argument I see against what I am proposing and for a company wide holiday is that there are so many people just yearning to have MLK Day off that it is practically impossible to run an operation with the number of people who would be willing to come in, so a company wide holiday is needed.

now you're getting it!

Though I have not studied this issue in depth, I just don't see that being the case. People complain about plenty of different things at UPS, but I have not sensed that being scheduled to work on MLK Day is a real common major complaint.

It's enough that that IBT feels its something to fight for. Perhaps the data from past proposals has already answered your question.

Speaking very generally, it is not uncommon to have some loud minority get their way over a quieter majority on some particular issue, whether it on the federal government level or within a family or anywhere in between. I went to a contract proposal meeting and there were some pretty unhappy campers there. I thought some complaints and expectations were very reasonable, but some others I thought were far fetched. I came away believing that certain people thought it was cruel and inhumane to have to break a sweat working at UPS over the summer. A person with that attitude is simply on the wrong career path...I ask you sincerely, what evidence do you have that there exists this burning desire among such a large number of employees to have MLK Day off that UPS could not manage an effective operation for the day and has no alternative but to put things on pause. I will say it again: people complain about many different things at UPS, but I have not sensed that being scheduled to work on MLK Day is a real common major complaint. Most of America self identifies as Christian; Good Friday is an important day in the Christian Faith, yet I have not had much difficulty getting that day off in the years I have wanted it and somehow UPS operations went on without me... I strongly suspect that there are not all that many people who have a burning desire to have MLK Day off, and for those that do, I believe they can be accomodated without putting the whole operation on pause. Additionally, people who want other holidays would be better able to get them with the idea I am suggesting.

I do thank you though, 542, for better engaging what I am saying with your comment in post #52 quoted above as opposed to your sarcastic reply earlier where I don't sense you really understood what I was saying based the response

Oh I understood. I just felt that you don't actually understand the issue. You're just looking for a company friendly solution so you can still get the extra day off your crave. We're not interested in concessionary bargaining. So I addressed your post with the effort I felt it deserved.
I hope you don't mean to imply that one person's day off is more worthwhile or sacred than another's. An additional discretionary day in the new contract is hardly a concession in my mind, and I don't believe I am proposing a "company friendly" solution, but rather a solution that will do the greatest good for the greatest number, and I certainly do believe it it in our shared long term interest - company and union - to keep UPS strong and healthy.

I have enjoyed this exchange, but I do have a job at UPS to get to so I am off for now...

 

[R1wonder]

I don't get what you mean in your last sentence...

Teamsters will ask for it , ups will say no , but they’ll ask for something in replace of it .
Like the extra day the OP mentioned . I think it’s different for supplements but my area doesn’t get Black Friday off anymore and it’s not paid holiday anymore either , but we got an extra Rover to replace that day .

 

[R1wonder]

What article is that in? I’ve must’ve missed it.

Is this in a supplement or in the national?

I’m fairly certain it’s in my supplement not sure if this is everywhere . It specifically says it has to be a “mutually agreed upon” day . . I’m off 4th of July week and wanted the following Friday off and was told no already .

 

[Cowboy Mac]

Again, you're looking for a day off. Members are looking to be able to celebrate a holiday. A discretionary day doesn't help everyone do that. A discretionary day does give more people more options. Cinco de Mayo is coming up...

Your solution still doesn't solve the problem. Again it's just you wanting another day off. What happens when everyone wants MLK day off? Or Good Friday? I believe that "everyone wants N day off" is a hypothetical which is contrary to fact... They won't be allowed. What about those low seniority people that can't get anything off?

now you're getting it!

It's enough that that IBT feels its something to fight for. Perhaps the data from past proposals has already answered your question.

Speaking very generally, it is not uncommon to have some loud minority get their way over a quieter majority on some particular issue, whether it on the federal government level or within a family or anywhere in between. I went to a contract proposal meeting and there were some pretty unhappy campers there. I thought some complaints and expectations were very reasonable, but some others I thought were far fetched. I came away believing that certain people thought it was cruel and inhumane to have to break a sweat working at UPS over the summer. A person with that attitude is simply on the wrong career path...I ask you sincerely, what evidence do you have that there exists this burning desire among such a large number of employees to have MLK Day off that UPS could not manage an effective operation for the day and has no alternative but to put things on pause. I will say it again: people complain about many different things at UPS, but I have not sensed that being scheduled to work on MLK Day is a real common major complaint. Most of America self identifies as Christian; Good Friday is an important day in the Christian Faith, yet I have not had much difficulty getting that day off in the years I have wanted it and somehow UPS operations went on without me... I strongly suspect that there are not all that many people who have a burning desire to have MLK Day off, and for those that do, I believe they can be accomodated without putting the whole operation on pause. Additionally, people who want other holidays would be better able to get them with the idea I am suggesting.

Oh I understood. I just felt that you don't actually understand the issue. You're just looking for a company friendly solution so you can still get the extra day off your crave. We're not interested in concessionary bargaining. So I addressed your post with the effort I felt it deserved.
I hope you don't mean to imply that one person's day off is more worthwhile or sacred than another's. An additional discretionary day in the new contract is hardly a concession in my mind, and I don't believe I am proposing a "company friendly" solution, but rather a solution that will do the greatest good for the greatest number, and I certainly do believe it it in our shared long term interest - company and union - to keep UPS strong and healthy.

I have enjoyed this exchange, but I do have a job at UPS to get to so I am off for now...

I agree with you 100% on that. I would like more paid days off, no matter what holiday. They could say it’s Joe Biden and Kamala Harris birthday for all I care. But if I had a choice between those days or any 2 days I choose, I want the choice.

 

[BrownFlush]

I have a dreeeeeeam, that somedaaaay, every man that wears brown will have my birthday off with pay.

 

[I have NOT been lurking]

MLK DAY AND JUNETEENTH , GET US OUT OF THE BUILDING ON TIME!!!!!

No

 

[textat3]

Make MLK day a “paid” holiday. Like Black Friday. 8 hr holiday pay plus ot all hrs worked.

 

[UpstateNYUPSer(Ret)]

Make MLK day a “paid” holiday. Like Black Friday. 8 hr holiday pay plus ot all hrs worked.

There are many supplements, including Upstate NY, where BF is simply another day. No holiday pay, not OT bonus pay.

The trend for the Company has been to take away paid holidays. I wouldn't hold my breath in regard to the two minor holidays being discussed here as it just ain't gonna happen.

 

[What'dyabringmetoday???]

There are many supplements, including Upstate NY, where BF is simply another day. No holiday pay, not OT bonus pay.

The trend for the Company has been to take away paid holidays. I wouldn't hold my breath in regard to the two minor holidays being discussed here as it just ain't gonna happen.

I wish you could come back and negotiate the contract.