Blame the non-voters?

[DriveInDriveOut]

I get where you're coming from and see your point of view.

But, if the NNC thought that they could do better, and thought that UPS was willing to give up more, that is was not their final offer, why did they stop negotiating and send us the offer? They still had plenty of time left.

I believe that the NNC knew this was the final offer from UPS, but didn't really inform anyone of the fact to have a card in their back pocket in case the vote did not go their way. Their "out" on this was that it is in the Constitution where every member can see it. They will take no responsibility for a member not knowing the Constitution. "Ignorance of the law is no excuse."

Section 2(a) of the Constitution specifies what the offer is they send to the membership. Some may disagree, but it is right there in black and white.

Upon completion of negotiations by any committee designated as hereinafter set forth to engage in negotiations of a master agreement, such agreement shall be submitted to the membership involved in such negotiations for their approval or rejection as the final offer in accordance with Section 2(d) herein.

FFS. It was not a final offer.

 

[Brownslave688]

FFS. It was not a final offer.

It is because Hoffa says it is and somehow he has the power to basically interpret anything how he wishes

 

[BigUnionGuy]

With the social media campaign the vote no movement had, I expected an 80-90% no vote. Very disappointing.

Not everyone.... spends their life on a cell phone.

 

[1989]

Not everyone.... spends their life on a cell phone.

The old timers are diminishing. Just a few years away from that generation. Did you just get a jitterbug?

 

[DriveInDriveOut]

Some may disagree, but it is right there in black and white.

Here it is in black and brown:

Section 2(b).
If a majority of the votes cast by the involved membership approve such agreement, it shall become binding and effective upon all Local Unions involved and their members.

When a master agreement negotiated under the provisions of this Article provides for a reopener and re-negotiation, or is voluntarily reopened during its stated term, the above voting procedure shall apply to ratification of
the new terms, if any, and Section 2(d) shall apply to strike votes.

 

[1989]

Here it is in black and brown:

Section 2(b).
If a majority of the votes cast by the involved membership approve such agreement, it shall become binding and effective upon all Local Unions involved and their members.

When a master agreement negotiated under the provisions of this Article provides for a reopener and re-negotiation, or is voluntarily reopened during its stated term, the above voting procedure shall apply to ratification of
the new terms, if any, and Section 2(d) shall apply to strike votes.

Looks more black and brown to me.

 

[Mugarolla]

Here it is in black and brown:

Section 2(b).
If a majority of the votes cast by the involved membership approve such agreement, it shall become binding and effective upon all Local Unions involved and their members.

When a master agreement negotiated under the provisions of this Article provides for a reopener and re-negotiation, or is voluntarily reopened during its stated term, the above voting procedure shall apply to ratification of
the new terms, if any, and Section 2(d) shall apply to strike votes.

So you are saying that the NNC thought that they could do better, that it wasn't a final offer by UPS, yet decided to quit negotiating and have us vote on the current offer?

I'll take some of what you're smoking please.

 

[BadIdeaGuy]

So you are saying that the NNC thought that they could do better, that it wasn't a final offer by UPS, yet decided to quit negotiating and have us vote on the current offer?

I'll take some of what you're smoking please.

How about actually going after the content he was saying, instead of just implying he's out of his head on drugs?

So tired of all these yes voters attacking peoples' characters instead of their arguments.

 

[Mugarolla]

When a master agreement negotiated under the provisions of this Article provides for a reopener and re-negotiation, or is voluntarily reopened during its stated term, the above voting procedure shall apply to ratification of

Where does it say in this TA that it is subject to reopen or renegotiate?

Just the opposite is true. People were under the impression, from Hoffa and the International, that if we voted down the Master that there would be, or could be, a strike. Section 2(d)

 

[Mugarolla]

How about actually going after the content he was saying, instead of just implying he's out of his head on drugs?

So tired of all these yes voters attacking peoples' characters instead of their arguments.

I voted no and see the above. I was typing it as you posted.

 

[Mugarolla]

How about actually going after the content he was saying, instead of just implying he's out of his head on drugs?

So tired of all these yes voters attacking peoples' characters instead of their arguments.

And the smoking part was a joke.

I can debate someone without name calling and trying to make it jovial.

I think me and @DriveInDriveOut have been very civil. We are at opposite ends of the debate, but it has not gotten ugly.

 

[zubenelgenubi]

Where does it say in this TA that it is subject to reopen or renegotiate?

Just the opposite is true. People were under the impression, from Hoffa and the International, that if we voted down the Master that there would be, or could be, a strike. Section 2(d)

While I generally agree with your interpretation of the article, this paragraph from section b does kinda throw a wrench into things:

"When a master agreement negotiated under the provi‑ sions of this Article provides for a reopener and re‑nego‑ tiation, or is voluntarily reopened during its stated term, the above voting procedure shall apply to ratifcation of the new terms, if any, and Section 2(d) shall apply to strike votes."

 

[Mugarolla]

or is voluntarily reopened during its stated term

What is the stated term of this negotiated contract?

And where in this negotiated TA does is state that it provides for a reopener or renegotiation?

I do not believe that this applies in this situation.

 

[zubenelgenubi]

What is the stated term of this negotiated contract?

And where in this negotiated TA does is state that it provides for a reopener or renegotiation?

I do not believe that this applies in this situation.

August 1st 2018 to July 31st 2023. Right? We're in the time frame. UPS volunteered to reopen negotiations, doesn't matter if the master allows for a reopener or not. The situation met those terms, thus the contract negotiations should have been reopened, and we should have been able to vote a few more times, if necessary, before even thinking about a strike. Art XII is extremely poorly written, and section 2(b) is by far the most disorganized subsection of the whole article. But, it says what it says.

@DriveInDriveOut I told you I wasn't sure what to make of that paragraph, but I'm coming over to your side now that I've had time to think about it.

 

[Mugarolla]

August 1st 2018 to July 31st 2023. Right? We're in the time frame. UPS volunteered to reopen negotiations, doesn't matter if the master allows for a reopener or not. The situation met those terms, thus the contract negotiations should have been reopened, and we should have been able to vote a few more times, if necessary, before even thinking about a strike. Art XII is extremely poorly written, and section 2(b) is by far the most disorganized subsection of the whole article. But, it says what it says.

@DriveInDriveOut I told you I wasn't sure what to make of that paragraph, but I'm coming over to your side now that I've had time to think about it.

Did the Union?

You need both sides willing to open a contract.

I'm not saying he shouldn't have, but did he?

Art XII is extremely poorly written

Yes it is.

and section 2(b) is by far the most disorganized subsection of the whole article. But, it says what it says

Is it?

Remember....

Any question arising from the application or interpretation of this Section shall be decided by the General President, whose decision shall be final.

 

[Netsua 3:16]

I guarantee that most of the non voters are part timers with no intentions of having a long term career at UPS. Creates a big problem for the voting process. It's like asking an immigrant with a 2 year work visa to vote for the presidency. We need better language on that front; something along the lines of "only part timers with 2 years senority may vote"

 

[BrownRecycler]

1. Final Offer Argument

What about dishonesty?

If UPS said it wasn't a final offer and Hoffa said it is, is bylaw is not the final offer and that dishonesty would be consider as "not in good standing with the union".

Because I have seen union members quit inappropriately and ejected, they were mark by the union as "not in good standing".

2. Lack of union culture participation

We were actively tuned to participate to vote the moment that we turn 18. However, I know some days or people have no voted on election belonging to the government ballot.

How can we apply that to the union election?

 

[Mugarolla]

If UPS said it wasn't a final offer

When did they say this?

 

[Mugarolla]

And why did the International have a 2 man meeting with all the locals to see if they approved or rejected the TA.

Article XXII Section 2(a) does not call for this to happen.

Article XXII Section 2(d) does call for this to happen.

Seems Hoffa was voting this contract per Section 2(d), as a final offer, since he held the 2 man meeting to approve the TA going to members.

Section 2(d)

except that no such final offer shall be considered to be a contract offer subject to ratification by the membership until it has been reviewed by the Local Unions which are the bargaining representatives of the involved members.

 

[Mugarolla]

I did mean to say Section 2(b) not 2(a) in the above post, the Section that some people say this offer was voted on.